I have a bunch of extra seedlings that i wont be planting in my garden. Now my question is, is there a point at which they are too big to graft? Also would grafting a large beefteak to a multiflora cherry rootstock be more productive or would a multiflora cherry grafted to a large beefsteak rootstock be more productive. I basically have way to many seedlings and want to do some experiments rather than let them die off.

If you just want to experiment and learn how to graft I don't see why you couldn't use them. I don't know if you would get any improvement out of doing it with those varieties. If you learn how to graft then if you have any soil born diseases you could use the knowledge and experience to do a better job grafting in the future and use a root stock that has good resistance to any diseases you are dealing with.

Bill

[QUOTE=b54red;618010]If you just want to experiment and learn how to graft I don't see why you couldn't use them. I don't know if you would get any improvement out of doing it with those varieties. If you learn how to graft then if you have any soil born diseases you could use the knowledge and experience to do a better job grafting in the future and use a root stock that has good resistance to any diseases you are dealing with.

Bill[/QUOTE]

I have grafted once before but my success rate was poor to say the least. This time i am going to focus on a better healing chamber.

My lone graft Is doing fine, while into 68 hours.
I did something unconventional : Did not pull the TS out and grafted on it on the spot.So its root were undisturbed.I don't know if it made a difference, one way or the other.

that is normally how its done, so you should be fine doing it that way. I'm just following Bill's method since he has been so successful with it.

[QUOTE=Gardeneer;618036]My lone graft Is doing fine, while into 68 hours.
I did something unconventional : Did not pull the TS out and grafted on it on the spot.So its root were undisturbed.I don't know if it made a difference, one way or the other.[/QUOTE]


There were two reasons I changed my grafting from making the cuts that way. One I found that by placing the two stems down flat on a cutting board one on top of the other my cuts went together much better and I had fewer separations at the juncture as it healed. The second reason was to control the amount of moisture that was available to the root stock. If I had too much moisture in the root stock cup then it would pull up too much and cause a separation from the water pressure. If it was too dry then I had problems keeping the scion alive and would end up over compensating with misting which would cause rot problems in the chamber.

I think you should do whatever works for you and whatever is easiest. I came up with this convoluted method trying to lessen some of the very real problems I was having. I think this would be overkill in a lot of places but down here where damping off seems to be in the air figuring out a way to keep my plants in a healing chamber without running into problems due to moisture is a real problem. I won't go back to using potting soil except as the final stage because I know it increased damping off. After spending a couple of hours grafting a chamber full of plants and have most of them and sometimes all of them taken down with damping off was sickening. Now I don't have to worry too much about whether the root stock is over watered because with this method there really isn't too much danger of it pulling up too much moisture out of the DE with most of its roots gone. It takes a day or two for new roots to start forming and it seems to work out real well and gives the two stems time to start bonding together before the scion needs more feeding from the root stock stem.

The first time I did grafting I had like 95% success rate doing it the way you describe so I thought I had it down. The next few times I barely got above 25% and had a lot of problems with damping off. Now it is rare for me to lose more than a few out of 25 and I am so much more consistent. It does take a little longer and it does cost a bit more but having a very high success rate really makes a difference. With my limited space to work I don't have the room to have lots of failures. I used to do over a hundred and fifty grafts in less than a week in an attempt to have enough successful ones to supply my needs for my first planting only. Now if I attempt 100 grafts I will have enough for me and a couple of my good friends who seriously garden.

Once it gets hot this method really pays off in a lot less failures if you are looking to do staggered planting dates like I do.

Bill

I went to Walmart and bought two new healing chambers. I use the 51 qt size with the clear lid. I bought my last ones two years ago and they were only around 4 dollars apiece now they are nearly 10 dollars. They are the best clear storage containers for grafting that I have been able to find. They are the only ones with a flat bottom which makes a huge difference. All the others have some type of molded bottom to strengthen them I suppose but what that does is cause cups to tilt or fall over especially if you have to move the chamber which I do all the time.

I highly recommend this product for this purpose. It has a clasp on each end which I only use the first two days to seal it tight. It is easy to clean and a size that is fairly easy to move around even when full of grafts. I have tried larger ones and they are just too bulky and they have those uneven bottoms. I have tried smaller ones but they are frequently not tall enough. The containers will stack together neatly at the end of the grafting season and not take up too much room.

Even if you are just a beginner you should have at least two healing chambers or more. The reason is once you start using one you really need to allow yourself a full week at least before removing the grafts. I usually leave then in the chamber for a day or two after completely opening the top because the high sides give the new grafts some protection. The trouble with waiting a week to do more grafts is the seedlings you are using for grafting are growing that whole time and they will get too large faster than you think.

Bill

[QUOTE=b54red;618052]There were two reasons I changed my grafting from making the cuts that way. One I found that by placing the two stems down flat on a cutting board one on top of the other my cuts went together much better and I had fewer separations at the juncture as it healed. The second reason was to control the amount of moisture that was available to the root stock. If I had too much moisture in the root stock cup then it would pull up too much and cause a separation from the water pressure. If it was too dry then I had problems keeping the scion alive and would end up over compensating with misting which would cause rot problems in the chamber.



I think you should do whatever works for you and whatever is easiest. I came up with this convoluted method trying to lessen some of the very real problems I was having. I think this would be overkill in a lot of places but down here where damping off seems to be in the air figuring out a way to keep my plants in a healing chamber without running into problems due to moisture is a real problem.





Bill[/QUOTE]


After watching countless videos from reputable growers, and reading multiple grafting guides, all of which show it done by leaving the rootstock plant in its pot, I was going to come back here and ask about the pros and cons. And for my drier and cooler climate, your tried and true technique just might be "overkill." But we'll see!

After this helpful post, I decided a trial was in order, so last night I started four of each of my rootstock seeds and eight tomato seeds (four each of two different varieties). Half are in DE and half in seed starter mix. This will also help me gauge how quickly or slowly the rootstock grows and let me try actually grafting some plants before it's time to start the real seeds.

Thanks again, Bill!

[QUOTE=Father'sDaughter;618233]After watching countless videos from reputable growers, and reading multiple grafting guides, all of which show it done by leaving the rootstock plant in its pot, I was going to come back here and ask about the pros and cons. And for my drier and cooler climate, your tried and true technique just might be "overkill." But we'll see!

After this helpful post, I decided a trial was in order, so last night I started four of each of my rootstock seeds and eight tomato seeds (four each of two different varieties). Half are in DE and half in seed starter mix. This will also help me gauge how quickly or slowly the rootstock grows and let me try actually grafting some plants before it's time to start the real seeds.

Thanks again, Bill![/QUOTE]

If I were running a commercial grafting operation or doing it for commercial growers there is no way what I am doing would be feasible or even sensible. I don't do any grafting in the house but rather in my tiny greenhouse where space is at a premium. I use my back porch covered in plastic as a fall back greenhouse and in an emergency I will take a healing chamber inside where I can have true temperature control. I only do the later if it is very cold or very hot.

Bill

Built my cool humidifier healing chamber today. While i was at it i side grafted my 2 favorite cherry hybrids together.....Esterina F1 and Sungold F1. They are in the chamber and are looking great so far.

After 4 days my lone graft seems to be out of woods. Or I think so !!

Now this was a premier lesson. Thanks Bill and BVV and others. The next time with my second batch I will practice a little more.
Ahh, I have to germinate some Big Beef seeds as my RS. And I gotta order supplies too.
I know that Big Beef is not true blue RS bur then I don't even know what to expect in my new location.

[QUOTE=Gardeneer;618433]After 4 days my lone graft seems to be out of woods. Or I think so !!

Now this was a premier lesson. Thanks Bill and BVV and others. The next time with my second batch I will practice a little more.
Ahh, I have to germinate some Big Beef seeds as my RS. And I gotta order supplies too.
I know that Big Beef is not true blue RS bur then I don't even know what to expect in my new location.[/QUOTE]


Big Beef may be a perfect root stock for you in your location. Until that third race of fusarium started showing up around here it was my go to insurance tomato. I could always count on it producing really well despite what was happening to my heirlooms. It will probably not be as good as a true root stock but it should give you some level of protection from two races of fusarium wilt and some RKN tolerance. If bacterial wilt is a problem in your area you might want to try a root stock that shows some tolerance of it because BW can be devastating when it hits and I don't believe Big Beef has that tolerance but I could be wrong about that.

You aren't out of the woods yet. After four days is when I usually start leaving a crack in the lid and gradually opening it up more each day until I take the lid off completely between the 6th and 8th day. Then if they survive and start growing you are then out of the woods.

I did another chamber full yesterday afternoon. I am almost out of root stock seedlings. I might have enough for a few more; but for now I am out of business until my next batch of seedlings gets large enough to start grafting.

My first plant out this year should be a big one. I am using my longest bed for my first plant out of tomatoes this year and it is slightly over 40 ft long. The way this weather is acting this year it may be plant out time before any of my grafts are even large enough or tough enough to go out. I didn't get all the varieties I wanted grafted because I had a few seed failures and also some of my scion varieties just weren't large enough to graft but I should have around 30 or more varieties with successful grafts if most of the ones I am attempting make it.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I sowed some Big Beef last night.

Talking about weather, I am getting itchy.:cute:
This weeks forecast calls for 3 night of low in 33, 34F. Then lows will be in 40s and 50s. But I am going to hold my horses until March. That has been my plan, when I germinated on Jan 14. (6 wks ago).
Today I will prepare some soil sample to take to county Ag office for testing. My own tests, just for pH, looks good. But I like to know P, K, Ca, Mg, Fe, S, ... and other elements situation.
Anyway, I will graft more with my second batch.

I went out and checked the grafts to see how they are doing. My first batch of a dozen that I grafted on the 31st of January have been outside for two days in the sun and wind and it looks like no failures in that batch. My second batch of 24 which was done on the 4th is now out of the healing chamber and sitting on the porch. Right now it looks like one of those is going to be a fail but I'll take those rates all season if I could get them. The third batch of 24 which was done on the 6th is still in the healing chamber but outside in partial shade and completely open. It is awfully windy today so I may have to close it back up if the scions show too much drooping but I will know soon. My fourth batch of 24 which was done on the 8th is in the greenhouse with the healing chamber cracked open and all the plants look good so far in it. I also have a final batch done late yesterday evening and it is also in the greenhouse but the chamber is buttoned up tight with a towel over it to keep out light. I'm debating starting a small batch with the few root stock seedlings I have left.

I'm also debating starting my green beans early because of this weather but I think I will wait til after the little cold spell coming this week.

Bill

I’ve never tried grafting before, but it sounds very interesting. I just don’t know if I have the skills to do it. Besides that I think I could have problems to maintain the temperature as high as I read it has to be (I don't have a healing chamber so I thought I could use a bucket spray it with water on the inside and put a few grafts under it...).
I’d like to try. After all experimenting has always been fun for me.
First I have some “newbie questions” for you:

Can I use all kinds of hybrids as rootstocks?

If I graft successfully let’s say for example some F1 with Orange Russian 117 (my favorite for the taste but with very low production), can I save seeds from the tomatoes I get? Will they grow true to type?

Once I’ve successfully completed the grafting procedure, how long does it take to the new plant to heal and be ready for transplant?

Thank you

Dami