[QUOTE=Allisa;574153]Maybe it's true only for indeterminate varieties? Because on Barry's Crazy Cherry the next cluster is after three leaves in my garden.[/QUOTE]

I planted late, I don't have anything MF flowering yet...but I looked at Mortgage Lifter and there were more than 4 or 5 branches before any sign of a flower cluster... unless nodes are considered suckers or sucker joints/apex.

[QUOTE=korney19;574550]Did you read what C. M. Rick said above regarding the s gene? ;)[/QUOTE]

No, I haven't read what Rick said re the s gene.

So please educate me Mark,link me to s gene function and how it relates to multifloras.:)

Thanks in advance.:yes::)

Carolyn

[QUOTE=korney19;573998]What I have never seen mentioned not only in this thread, but virtually any thread regarding multifloras, is the difference between the number of nodes between multiflora clusters and normal flower clusters:

[I]Phenotype: Inflorescence branches excessively, resulting in a large hemispherical mass of [B]80 or more flowers[/B] and buds; inflorescence appears at [B]every sixth node, instead of every third[/B] in normal genotypes.
[/I]

Has anybody ever tried checking this?[/QUOTE]

I have not, but I will now that you shared that. Thanks!

Have posted this before re: the genetics of multiflora in the lines they chose to investigate, at least. The donor parent of the multiflora trait of everything in this thread was Rose Quartz multiflora, mentioned in the paper below. I have seen variation in the level of "multifloraness" so would not surprise me if there are modifier genes in addition to environmental factors.

[URL="http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060288"]http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060288[/URL]

[QUOTE=ChrisK;574855]Have posted this before re: the genetics of multiflora in the lines they chose to investigate, at least. The donor parent of the multiflora trait of everything in this thread was Rose Quartz multiflora, mentioned in the paper below. I have seen variation in the level of "multifloraness" so would not surprise me if there are modifier genes in addition to environmental factors.

[URL="http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060288"]http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060288[/URL][/QUOTE]

Thanks so much for that link for two reasons. First it describes 2 genes,s is the one that Mark mentioned,and there is a second one also involved with multifloras, and second, the lead author was Zach Lippman whom I knew very well.

He was in Israel working with Dani Zamir when he asked me to send him about 1000 different tomato varieties for his work there. I was able to contact some friends and we did it.

I originally knew him when he was working with the Cornell tomato gene project.

He moved back home,said the pizza was no good there and now is at Cold Spring Harbor.

[url]https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1402&bih=791&q=Zach+Lippman+Cold+Spring+Harbor&oq=Zach+Lippman+Cold+Spring+Harbor&gs_l=img.12..0i24.5984.38342.0.46181.33.13.0.20.1.0.213.2265.0j12j1.13.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.9.1382...0j0i30j0i5i30j0i10i24.MY9Ql_gMeR4[/url]

[url]https://www.google.com/#q=Zach+Lippman+Cold+Spring+Harbor&hl=en[/url]


Lastly,what he's doing and why.


[url]https://www.cshl.edu/Faculty/Zachary-Lippman.html[/url]

Carolyn,who thanks you for bringing back to her some darn good interactions with Zach, I should really try to contact him.

Alleles of s appear to be responsible for the cultivated multifloras. Anantha, the other one in that paper, has a different phenotype in addition to branched inflorescences. I've got a multiflora line this year that looks like a cross between a tomato and a tumbleweed. Could be a strong allele of s or a different gene all together. Planning on an allelic test cross and grow out next year.

This will probably be my final report on 11X-F3-6. Below are pictures of my two best plants. They are (IMO) multiflora dwarfs. Both plants are about 34" and growing.

High marks:
1) production
2) resistance (One is in a bed known for fusarium wilt. It held out longer than most of my non grafted plants.)
3) dwarf
4) multiflora
5) fruit size
6) fruit color

No so high marks:
1) Taste - the taste didn't improve.

It seems this one could be candidate for being crossed back to something with great taste. I will have plenty of seed.

The first plant below is showing signs of fusarium wilt and so will deteriorate from here. BUT, I had just picked about 8-10 fruit just prior to this picture. I took a picture with all the fruit but it was blurred. Sorry.

Mike

[QUOTE=mashermike;575007]This will probably be my final report on 11X-F3-6. Below are pictures of my two best plants. They are (IMO) multiflora dwarfs. Both plants are about 34" and growing.

High marks:
1) production
2) resistance (One is in a bed known for fusarium wilt. It held out longer than most of my non grafted plants.)
3) dwarf
4) multiflora
5) fruit size
6) fruit color

No so high marks:
1) Taste - the taste didn't improve.

It seems this one could be candidate for being crossed back to something with great taste. I will have plenty of seed.

The first plant below is showing signs of fusarium wilt and so will deteriorate from here. BUT, I had just picked about 8-10 fruit just prior to this picture. I took a picture with all the fruit but it was blurred. Sorry.

Mike[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the report. Hopefully there are others out there with everything that one has plus the taste.

I like your idea. I have one of it's papas growing right now. Send me some seeds and I'll cross it back to Margaret Curtain and to its mama still this summer. If I can get the crosses made, I'll send you some of the F1 seed.

"s" also has the "mult" allele...

Allele: mult
Allele name: multiflora
Synonym of Allele: mult
Mutant type: Radiation
Phenotype: Greatly increased number of flowers per inflorescence.
Notes: Shown by Lippman 2008 PLoS Biol. to be alllele of s gene.

[QUOTE=carolyn137;574862]Thanks so much for that link for two reasons. First it describes 2 genes,s is the one that Mark mentioned,and there is a second one also involved with multifloras, and second, the lead author was Zach Lippman whom I knew very well.

He was in Israel working with Dani Zamir when he asked me to send him about 1000 different tomato varieties for his work there. I was able to contact some friends and we did it.

I originally knew him when he was working with the Cornell tomato gene project.

He moved back home,said the pizza was no good there and now is at Cold Spring Harbor.

[url]https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1402&bih=791&q=Zach+Lippman+Cold+Spring+Harbor&oq=Zach+Lippman+Cold+Spring+Harbor&gs_l=img.12..0i24.5984.38342.0.46181.33.13.0.20.1.0.213.2265.0j12j1.13.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.9.1382...0j0i30j0i5i30j0i10i24.MY9Ql_gMeR4[/url]

[url]https://www.google.com/#q=Zach+Lippman+Cold+Spring+Harbor&hl=en[/url]


Lastly,what he's doing and why.


[url]https://www.cshl.edu/Faculty/Zachary-Lippman.html[/url]

Carolyn,who thanks you for bringing back to her some darn good interactions with Zach, I should really try to contact him.[/QUOTE]

"s" also has the "mult" allele...

Allele: mult
Allele name: multiflora
Synonym of Allele: mult
Mutant type: Radiation
Phenotype: Greatly increased number of flowers per inflorescence.
Notes: Shown by Lippman 2008 PLoS Biol. to be alllele of s gene.

19xF1 plant is growing nicely. Flower clusters are just developing. Should be no problem to collect plenty of F2 seed before fall. I've pulled all sucker growth as I will train this to a single stem since it is in a small pot.

Someone please help me understand this
 

[QUOTE=korney19;573998]What I have never seen mentioned not only in this thread, but virtually any thread regarding multifloras, is the difference between the number of nodes between multiflora clusters and normal flower clusters:

[I]Phenotype: Inflorescence branches excessively, resulting in a large hemispherical mass of [B]80 or more flowers[/B] and buds; inflorescence appears at [B]every sixth node, instead of every third[/B] in normal genotypes.
[/I]

Has anybody ever tried checking this?[/QUOTE]

I don't claim any detailed knowledge of the specific genes and genetics involved, but I do know how to count. What I can say here is not based on anything scientific, just initial observations from an experimental planting of 40 indeterminate F2s from my 11X cross: (Red Robin X Rose Quartz Multiflora F4) X (Brandywine Cowlick's X Margaret Curtain F1). The mama was definitely multiflora and every plant I’ve grown in that line (except crosses) have been, so I know the trait is fixed there. These are full-size cousins of the dwarf and micro crosses I have sent out from the 11X line.

I am hoping to find a multiflora indeterminate with large good-tasting fruit. I started several hundred F2 seeds and potted up 120 of the healthiest indeterminates, using as many PL plants as I could find. I then left them in their 4" red cups much longer than normal - until they started to show blossoms - hoping to plant only those that showed multiflora.

The ones I didn't plant were almost certainly NOT multiflora and it appears that most of those I did plant are also not multiflora. The ratio of multiflora is certainly well below the 25% expected if it were controlled by a single recessive gene. In fact, the number will nearly certainly be closer to the 6.25% that would be expected if there were two recessive genes involved (if I understand things properly and did the math correctly).

Now to the node counting I started out to address. [LIST][*]The above quote says “inflorescence appears at [B]every sixth node, instead of every third[/B] in normal genotypes”[*]Perhaps I don’t understand exactly how they define ‘Node’. As I would describe them, every 'normal' OP variety I examined (only about 6 or 7 varieties) - those other than the group of F2s - have an inflorescence then three leaf nodes then another inflorescence.[*]Where am I misunderstanding the terminology? If there are 3 leaf clusters between inflorescences, wouldn’t you say that the inflorescences appear every 4th node rather than every 3rd node, or doesn’t an inflorescence count as a node? Anyway, I'll use every 'Nth' node to mean there are 'N' leaf clusters between inflorescences.[*]On the F2s I have growing, I can find plants with inflorescences every 3rd node (just like the normal Ops I examined) plus, every 4th node and every 5th node. I could find none with 6 leaf nodes between inflorescences as I would expect from the above quote. - (Edit: After going through more plants and in more detail, I found one with 6 leaf nodes between inflorescences. It has two stems - one with 5 and the other with 6. It has the heaviest flowering of any to date. I also found one of the plants with 4 leaf nodes between has a second stem with only 2 leaf nodes between inflorescences.)[*]I have a couple of other ‘real’ multiflora plants growing – Red Centiflor and Yellow Centiflor. I checked Yellow Centiflor and it has 5 leaf nodes between inflorescences, so it would not meet the definition of multiflora in the above quote of “every 6th node’. I can absolutely guarantee you THAT plant is multiflora! Red was topped by deer shortly after planting and I can’t say yet what it will show.[*]On my F2s, all of those that have inflorescences on the 4th or 5th node I would have classified as being multiflora by just looking at the inflorescences – as I used to do before you got me counting nodes. [*]Conversely, I would have described none of those that had inflorescences every 3rd node as being multiflora (I didn’t examine every one of the 40 plants) . So, there certainly appears to be a correlation between multiflora and leaf nodes between inflorescences greater than 3.[*]There may also be a correlation between the number of nodes between the inflorescence and the number of flowers in the inflorescence. It is too early to say for sure, but the two that currently show the largest sprays of blossoms both have 5 leaf nodes between infloresceces.[*]I will be able to speak to that better in a few weeks, as most of them are in a relatively early stage of blossoming with only 2-4 inflorescences, some just forming.[/LIST]
I don't have the patience to even try to count nodes on the dwarf and micros I have growing. Things are too dense and my fingers too clumsy to do it without breaking branches and creating other problems, not the least of which would be my frustration. I will, however, try to count some of them on carcasses after the season is over. (And if you read this far, thanks for your patience.)

Please weigh in with explanations or your own observations to help me understand this. I certainly don't want to call something multiflora that isn't really. However, I'm currently convinced that the 'experts' don't have nearly all the answers.

I had 52 various micro's going but a drip system failure while on vacation led to seriuos losses and set backs. I had several small beefsteak tomatoes on a multiflora 13x-F3--2 RL but a dang rat got to all of them but 1. More pics will be coming of other cherry size micro multi flora's but for now here is the pic of the 1 that survived. It tasted close to your original micro multiflora you were working on for Chrisk but with a bit more acid bite. A real winner so far which makes me even more upset at the rat. It had a slight sunburn from this intense heat we are having. Anyway here it is.

Would you believe I'm still planting? I am in tne middle of fertigation work, last plants, and injector lines, plus bagging blossoms--most of my MF's are knee-high. I only bagged 1 inflorescence so far. Even all my bi-colors (8) are just knee-high and need some greening up yet. I haven't had a chance to bend down that far to count nodes without extra meds! It may take another couple weeks to count nodes.

I'm not sure if it's nodes between inflorescences or including inflorescences.

Are you saying your crosses weren't homozygous and you are crossing heteros F4 x F1? Why didn't you start with something easier? I probably would have stabilized one or both first to cut down the variables.

So we have done a couple blind taste tests of the 5 11xF3 plants. All are rather tasty red cherry tomatoes. 1 has a bit thicker skin and slightly poorer flavor. 2 of the 5 routinely rate in the top 2. I'd say the best are 7.5 in taste. So Dan, others what do you think? Should I save seed, they are productive and tasty but not take my breath away WOW. I feel like I should save seed from one of them, but then I think I'd be better off trying more F3 seeds next year as I might land a WOW and at the very least get ones on par with what we've got this year since all 5 are tasty. I'm also doing 19xF1 this year and will want to allot as much container space to 19xF2. I appreciate any opinions, etc