Contact information for anyone that has had their images [B]stolen[/B] and used on his site:

Tom Duncan
6394 Springville RD.
Shreve, OH 44676

330-567-9473

[EMAIL="TDu9530801@aol.com"]TDu9530801@aol.com[/EMAIL]

This is public information and [U][B]not[/B][/U] from any data he submitted to become a member, just an FYI to anyone who wants to question me...

That's interesting, because I had the two sites open side by side...Remy's and his...

For Burracker's Favorite the pic I saw on his site was a tomato, with a bit of stem, on a weathered piece of wood, outside. Remy's is sitting on a plate...

It was the same with all the others, at least of Remy's, I checked (which was her list in the thread). And I was looking for about an hour or so before I posted my reply to Remy. I didn't check any of the T-base items.

Now, those who have looked, before you look again, clear your browser cache...

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]First of all let me apologize. I never intended to offend anyone. I feel REALLY misunderstood. I agree, it is wrong to use something that belongs to someone without their permission. I was just TRYING TO SAY that one should never be presumptuous about someone's intent. The key word there being INTENT, which everyone that commented seemed to point to knowing what the guys intentions were and that he was dishonest. Perhaps someone should offer to help correct this guys errors? He might need the income and be a decent person that just needed a little positive direction. I wouldn't want my pics used without permission either, but it might just be lack of knowledge about things like that. Maybe not. Once again, I don't know his intentions.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]And yes, again I agree, it does not help someone's reputation when they do something like that. I was not really trying to defend the seed seller in question. Words like "cheating" and "steal" and "thief" and "stolen" are pretty harsh without knowing someone in person. Before anyone goes off being indignant and angry they should just slow down and state the facts without using words like that. "Using pictures without permission" sounds much better than "stealing". I have also had pictures used without permission and I know that it is upsetting. However, the proper businesslike way to handle this would have been for the injured parties to have contacted the seller and not have this played out in a public forum. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Why is everyone on internet forums so eager to get bent out of shape with someone? How can so many people be so angry all the time? I don't feel like I attacked anyone and again, I apologize if it was taken that way. I had no intention of pulling anyone's tail or any other appendage. The point I was trying to make was to be kind to people. Kindness and professionalism always have better results than anger, insults and accusations. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]By the way, this is not new. I have been looking at that same kid with a bushel gourd for 40 years. Gurney, Burpee, Henry Fields and Reimer all use the same pic.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Sorry I spoke up. I was just hoping to remind people to be kind. I meant no malice and I wish everyone the best. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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Original,
Don't feel bad I do think you were misunderstood. I know you were trying to say someone could innocently take them and not know any better and want to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I think that is very nice of you.
There is more to the story behind the scenes that I and others did not post because we, well me at least, didn't want to start any more arguing on here, but believe me when I say he knows what he was doing. I don't want to go posting it all because that would just be vindictive since he has worked on removing my photos. The Burracker's is still there on one page but not the others. So I'm going to assume that he just missed it in his removal of the photos and if it is still there in a few days, I will send a friendly reminder.
Remy

[quote=original;182357]First of all let me apologize. I never intended to offend anyone. I feel REALLY misunderstood.
[/quote]

Original - I hope you can understand that equating the use of a publicity photo in an avatar (which is in the public domain and wasn't being used in an attempt to sell anything) with what's occurred in this instance probably wasn't the best way to make your point. Just saying. :)

[quote=original;182357]However, the proper businesslike way to handle this would have been for the injured parties to have contacted the seller and not have this played out in a public forum.[/quote]

I disagree for a couple of reasons. Firstly, how are people supposed to know that their images are being used without permission if someone doesn't point out that there might be a problem?

My understanding from reading this thread is that Remy (and I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, Remy :) ) did not know that her pictures were being used without permission until Tatiana publicly brought this to our attention and she took a look at the website. Perhaps Remy would have eventually happened upon this use of her images without permission, maybe not.


I wasn't aware of it either.

[ATTACH]15008[/ATTACH]

[URL]http://www.feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/v/memberphotos/suze/2006+tomatoes/picardy.jpg.html[/URL]

[URL]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Picardy[/URL]

Thing is, if he'd simply asked, I probably would have let him use the photo. Whenever I've been asked if my images could be used, I've never turned anyone down in the past. It's really not even a very good picture (I've since gotten a better camera :cute: ) and honestly, it doesn't exactly keep me up at nights knowing a crop of a Picardy photo I took over four years ago is being used somewhere, but that's really not the point.


I also somehow doubt Earl is aware that one of his Earl's Faux photos is being used.

[ATTACH]15006[/ATTACH]

[URL]http://www.feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/v/memberphotos/earl/earlsfaux/47b4d904b3127cceb2b6fcae9b390000001610.JPG.html[/URL]

And I can most definitely understand some of Tatiana's concerns. She's got a top-notch tomato database, has invested a lot of time and effort to make it that way and relies heavily on user contributions in terms of images and descriptions. If someone uses those contributed pics without permission or credit, she lets it slide, and word gets around, folks might not be so keen in the future to freely upload pics to her database. That would be a real shame too.

In any case, I'm glad Tatiana and others pointed this out.

Also / secondly, the selective cropping of some of the images strongly suggests to me that that there was some intent involved in making it less apparent that photos were being used without permission. If someone takes a perfectly good photo of a variety, say for example, from the Territorial website, and goes to the trouble to use a tight crop of just one of the three tomatoes pictured, now what would be the point of doing something like that?

[ATTACH]15009[/ATTACH]

[URL]https://www.territorialseed.com/product/3811/92[/URL]

This next example annoys me on some sort of visceral level - gee, talk about a selective crop job from a harvest photo someone shared in a forum post! And the photo isn't even of Cow's Tit (which is what it was used for), it's of Opalka if I'm reading what Emerald posted re the photo correctly.

[ATTACH]15007[/ATTACH]

[URL]http://www.idigmygarden.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231724&postcount=5[/URL]

Another cropped photo of CP from PlantFiles originally uploaded by Dave:

[ATTACH]15011[/ATTACH]

[URL]http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/51755/[/URL]

He's also taken the time to selectively crop the heck out of several of Jere Gettle's photos before using them.

These are just a few examples of this sort of thing that I feel like mentioning or have the time to mention right now - there are many more still up on the website.

mjc,

This is great - this means that he is correcting the problem! I saw he removed some of the TOMATObase pictures (although as I pointed out to him in my email, he could have kept them if he met the terms and conditions of GNDL which is in effect at TOMATObase).

This is great news.

Tania

Suze,

Darn, I missed the Picardy picture - I should have mentioned that to him too, so he'd remove it - thank you so much for pointing it out.

Tania

As Remy pointed out, there is a bit more in the background happening there that was not shared at T-ville. I have been taking the whole incident very closely to my heart for several reasons, one of them being TOMATObase where many tomato folks post their pictures, and I have to make sure these pictures do not end up all over the net without proper attribution to the owners.

What prompted me to check them out?

Earlier this week, Dr. Tomato added themselves into TOMATObase vendor list. This was the first time when a vendor did that without contacting me first (not that I have a rule that they have to contact me, don't get me wrong, but normally people do that out of courtesy - normally you would not think about getting on someones website and adding a link to yours, would you? :?!?: ). This prompted me to visit their website, and I thought that while I am there I'd add them to the Seed Availability sections for tomatoes they offer. What I saw there was disturbing - the abuse of the Top 5 banner, the pictures from other seed vendors and then TOMATObase pictures. I did not know until I posted it here that other people's pictures were also used without permission. This is not good.

I sent Dr. Tomato 3 emails since Aug 24 and got no response.

After a long deliberation, I made a decision to remove the link to Dr. Tomato from Tatiana's TOMATObase, while they are correcting the copyright issues. I will add it back in once all the issues are resolved. Although I did not want to discriminate any tomato seed vendor at TOMATObase, I do not want my website to refer to a seed vendor with what I think is a very questionable reputation.

Tatiana

jeesh you folks have to really police the net to protect your property. there's no doubt he knew what he was doing after you have pointed out various pictures and the cropping, this is purposeful.

out of curiosity i just looked at the site. i would not buy from this guy just because what i saw was so sloppy - poor punctuation, misspelling and a lack of continuity.

the "menu" really was a mess! some things are capitalized, some not. some links are for say "Yellow Tomatoes" while the following is "White Tomato seeds" so this means what, the 1st is to buy " actual grown tomatoes" while the 2nd is to buy "tomato seeds"? in the middle of the red tomatoes links he inserted "fix the economy"! like you just put anything anywhere?

picky? maybe but i am a stickler for details and all my observations, to me anyway, show a sloppy haphazard manner. as someone else mentioned how do you know whether this doesn't spill over into quality control of the seeds? i sure don't want to receive "yellow whatever" if i ordered "red something"!

tom

Tatiana, you sent him 3 e-mails with no response! I would not add his website back to yours under any circumstances. Tatiana has always asked me for permission to use my photo's for TOMATObase and have given her carte blanche to use any of my photo's. All you gotta do is ask and unfortunately there are still people out there that don't feel the need. Ami

Has anybody notified "Garden Watchdog" to advise them of this misuse of their logo? They might not be thrilled to hear that. Of what use is a 'trust' logo if every snake oil salesman puts one on his wagon?. It dilutes the [b]value[/b] of that logo. They have lost far more than any of you have. Using that logo, in my mind, proves [B]intent[/B].

Tatiana, I must agree with Ami. I, too, have given you my permission to use any of my photos on your website. You have complete discretion on that issue. But this individual has not answered when challenged which is not what one would expect if the problem is simple lack of knowledge about photographic copyright. It tends more toward deception and skullduggery.

Still, personal situations are as varied as we humans can make them. I would recommend you hold off on restoring the link until the individual comes to the table and provides some answers followed by appropriate actions.

Persons of good intention will step up to the plate when they find they are in error. First impression of this person seems to point to a thief that has been discovered and now is running and hiding from confrontation.

JMHO

Ted

There are basically three ways to go about dealing with pictures on the web...

The first is the 'conventional' method...say they are copyrighted and require permission in order for someone else to use them. This is what most companies and people do. It means regularly policing the net to make sure they are not being used elsewhere.

The second is to copyright them, but use a CreativeCommons type copyright, where there is permission to use them, but attribution must be given. Permission to use is automatic, if attribution is given, but it is still nice to let the original photo owner know one of his pictures is being used and where. If you use someone's pictures say so...don't claim them as your own.

The third, put them on the net in the public domain...and then consider them not your own any longer.

Each method is valid and you can have many reasons for doing any one of those methods.

There is also the 'stock' photo approach. That is why many of the seed catalogs, websites and such show the exact same picture on all of them. In many cases the photo is supplied to all the various seed retailers by the supplier for that variety.

Personally, I prefer the stock photo and CC licensing approaches. Something like this
[url]http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/[/url] saves lots of headaches, down the road.

There's also a big difference between using a picture for a forum post/blog article/news article and using it to sell something. Usually the former falls under the 'fair use' idea...the latter...that is commercial use and has much tighter controls (and expectations...usually one of some monetary compensation for use of the photo).

[quote=RinTinTin;182397] Using that logo, in my mind, proves [B]intent[/B].[/quote]

[B]Exactly. [/B]
It appears that we think in similar terms. ;)

[QUOTE=RinTinTin;182397]Has anybody notified "Garden Watchdog" to advise them of this misuse of their logo? They might not be thrilled to hear that. Of what use is a 'trust' logo if every snake oil salesman puts one on his wagon?. It dilutes the [b]value[/b] of that logo. They have lost far more than any of you have. Using that logo, in my mind, proves [B]intent[/B].[/QUOTE]

I did not notify Dave's Garden about the logo misuse, but I outlined this issue in the email I sent to Dr. Tomato, along with the copyright issues, when I temporarily disabled his account at TOMATObase. I am still hoping he will be correcting this problem.

Tania

It appears that there's someone else claiming trademark for the name "Dr. Tomato" to promote [I]their[/I] business... that's a whole other mess unto itself. :wacky:

[URL]http://healthyhomeharvest.com/home/dr-tomato/[/URL]

ouch. I see both businesses started at about the same time (2009)? So we have two different Dr. Tomato folks out there.

Perhaps we need to be a bit more specific from now on which one we are discussing here - I believe the official company name of this Dr. Tomato is 'Dr Tomato Seed Company'.

All the negative talk about one Dr. Tomato may negatively reflect on the other... Ouch.

Tania

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Thanks very much for the affirming words Remy. I look forward to purchasing from you and Tatiana. You both seem like great people to do business with. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]I have another suggestion about photos. I use Paint Shop Pro for photo editing and I was playing around with it last night and might have found a way to keep this from happening again. You can add a WATERMARK to your pictures. It's really easy and doesn't take long to do. In Paint Shop you just load an image. Then from the top menu you select 'image' and a drop down will appear and you simply select 'watermarking'. You can use your company logo as a watermark or create a text watermark. You can also adjust the transparency. Once you get used to the process it only takes a minute to watermark a photo. The most effective watermarks are the ones that are slightly transparent and have your website address as the overlay image. Let me know if I can help in any way. Thanks.[/SIZE][/FONT]

original,

I am very sorry I may have over-reacted on your original post here (I think I did over-react, given my emotional state at that time), and I would like to officially apologize to you.

Remy has a really nice way of writing and putting things into a right perspective, and I truly admire her for that. I was steaming over the fact that someone stole her pictures that she worked so hard on, and she has the most competitive seed prices in the world, and her Seed Shop is her true passion, not a 'make-a-profit' thing! She has a way of making people happy, and it is so great to watch that in action :)

Tatiana

Here's a picture I added a watermark to using Picasa. Ami

At least the other one isn't basing the site on the name.
If any of you have a photo of "Aunt Ruby" tomato it is still there.

I looked at Dr Tomato website just a few minutes ago, and all the TOMATObase pictures are removed.

Remy, I think the picture for 'Early Glee' is yours and it is still there - please check it out, in case I am mistaken. Your Burracker's Favorite picture is now removed.

Top 5 banner was also removed. Actually the home page is now looking much cleaner and nicer.

Baker Creek, SSE, Tomatofest, and TGS pictures are still there.

Tania

[quote=Tania;182440]original,

I am very sorry I may have over-reacted on your original post here (I think I did over-react, given my emotional state at that time), and I would like to officially apologize to you.

Remy has a really nice way of writing and putting things into a right perspective, and I truly admire her for that. I was steaming over the fact that someone stole her pictures that she worked so hard on, and she has the most competitive seed prices in the world, and her Seed Shop is her true passion, not a 'make-a-profit' thing! She has a way of making people happy, and it is so great to watch that in action :)

Tatiana[/quote]
You are much too kind. :D


[quote=original;182439][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Thanks very much for the affirming words Remy. I look forward to purchasing from you and Tatiana. You both seem like great people to do business with. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]I have another suggestion about photos. I use Paint Shop Pro for photo editing and I was playing around with it last night and might have found a way to keep this from happening again. You can add a WATERMARK to your pictures. It's really easy and doesn't take long to do. In Paint Shop you just load an image. Then from the top menu you select 'image' and a drop down will appear and you simply select 'watermarking'. You can use your company logo as a watermark or create a text watermark. You can also adjust the transparency. Once you get used to the process it only takes a minute to watermark a photo. The most effective watermarks are the ones that are slightly transparent and have your website address as the overlay image. Let me know if I can help in any way. Thanks.[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

Thank you. I'll have to check out the paint shop pro. Neither of my photo editing programs on my computer can do that.
Remy

The best way to protect your logo is to make it a registered trademark or registered servicemark with the U.S. Patent Office. The process takes about a year.

Ami, that watermark doesn't cut it. The best way is to make it very light and run it across the tomatoes. Otherwise, it can easily be cropped out and used elsewhere.

Now that a friendly email isn't getting any action, the next step is to have a lawyer send a letter threatening prosecution if the images aren't removed. Usually this gets action without any further need to go to court. I suggest joint action.

Remy, create a .png watermark and adjust the transparency level to an acceptable level. Use the "place" feature to put it where you want on the photo. If you need help, I'll create a watermark for you in Photoshop for free. PM me if interested.

Here is a website that is free and will let you upload up to 10 images at a time and then will water mark them and zip the file for easy download. I just used the defaults but you can place any text any color and font you wish.

A bonus is that it does not rename your photo so you could copy your images folder from your website to your computer then replace those with the watermarked images then just re upload it to the web server and all your pics will be water marked.

[URL="http://watermark-images.com/Default.aspx"]http://watermark-images.com/Default.aspx[/URL]

Actually that watermark is no good either as it could easily be cropped out.

If you have PSP, you can find many tutorials on making a watermark if you search - psp tut watermark.

I just used the first tut that showed up here. [url]http://moonsdesigns.com/tutorials/watermark.html[/url]

It's for an older version of PSP but it worked OK for my version 9 except I couldn't seem to get it to export at all. So I just saved it as a PNG. Then you copy that image and paste as a new layer on your pic. The best info in the tut is to make that new layer "soft light". That makes it transparent and the colors of your image show thru the watermark. Then use the move tool to where ever you want it. It's best to have it right on top of the main part of your pic so it can't be cropped out without ruining the pic.

Here is what I made. One is the watermark. The other is on top of my pic of Black and Brown Boar.

Carol

Below is a link to a tomato (Sioux). It is from Google. Isn't that a copyright violation since they are (probably) linking to another site somewhere? Why don't people go after the [B]billion dollar[/B] mega company for copy right infringements?

What if a person linked to this picture? Wouldn't it actually be Google that is doing the copy right infringements?

[URL]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41oFLrHmaKL.jpg[/URL]

:?

here is an interesting perspective. [URL]http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html[/URL]

But that water mark can be edited out very easily (guess that has been said already). You need to add one with a translucent trade mark across the pic, like this one... it was done in MS paint.

[quote=amideutch;182445]Here's a picture I added a watermark to using Picasa. Ami[/quote]

That link actually looks like Amazon is the violator.

If you search Google images for sioux tomato, the first page brings up that same pic 3 times on 3 dif sites, one of which is TGS. Who owns the original is ??? If you click any of those images Google will take you to the web page it's found on with this line "Image may be subject to copyright".

So while Google makes it easier for someone to find an image they may want to use as their own, they do inform the user of a possible copyright issue. It's also not clear from that pic if it's a seed company's stock pic that has been distributed to their customers or if it's someone's personal pic.

Carol