Hotwired,

It's better to call them "Heritage" than calling relatively new F1 hybrids "heirlooms", which I have seen in the past in nursery stock.

[QUOTE]Can you confirm for me whether, when crossing two parent plants, it is conventional to list the female plant first? As in "mother" x "father" = F1 hybrid? [/QUOTE]

That seems to be the tradition. It is the opposite when you do human genealogy

Thanks, Tom.

Are tomatoes sold in stores usually hybrids?

[QUOTE=rubbe87;488405]Are tomatoes sold in stores usually hybrids?[/QUOTE]
Almost always F1 hybrids.

[QUOTE=rubbe87;488405]Are tomatoes sold in stores usually hybrids?[/QUOTE]

In the big stores such as Home Depot, Lowe's, Walmart etc., yes they are F1 hybrids most of the time, but not always. I've seen Black Krim, Cherokee Purple, Brandywine, Black Prince, Marglobe and a few other heirloom varieties sporadically at such stores. Look carefully at the tags--sometimes you'll see the words "heirloom variety."

Ok I am new to the tomato growing. This is my first year in a long time.

I ordered Hybrid & Heirloom seeds to plant this year. None were identified as F1.

I planted 24 varieties and a total of 44 plants.

I have bumble bees in my garden that go to the flowers on all of the varieties.

This is my question.

Will I get the same variety of tomato this year that I planted if they cross pollinate? If I save the seed and they did cross pollinate this year is that considered a F1 seed. If I have an F1 seed and plant next year will I get the original varieties or a mixed version. If I plant a lot of different tomatoes every year do I have to buy new seeds every year?

Oregonfarmer, your hybrid seeds would all be F1s.
If the bumblebees cross pollinate your tomatoes no, you will not get the same variety from the cross pollinated seed.
Every first generation cross is called an "F1" seed.
If the parents in the cross are random and unknown (bee crosses) then you will get a random assortment of different tomatoes from the crossed seed. You will not get the original varieties by saving crossed seed. If you save seeds from F1 hybrids, you have F2 seed, which will produce an assortment of different tomatoes, depending on what the parents were, even if the F1 seeds were self pollinated.

The F1 hybrid seed which you bought, was produced by deliberately crossing two stable parent lines which are maintained by the company for that purpose to produce the seed. If you want to grow F1 hybrids, you will have to buy seed.

Heirlooms and OP tomatoes have been selfed for seven or more generations, and if they self pollinate then the seeds will come true and you get the same variety. You can bag blossoms to make sure that they don't cross pollinate, and then save seeds from those fruit, and you will get the same variety from your saved seed.
Some people simply save the seeds from first and last fruit of their heirlooms, which are least likely to be cross pollinated (less bee action at those times), and sometimes get crossed seed but most of the time it is self pollinated and you do get the same variety. So that way you don't have to buy seed every year, you can save your own and know what to expect from the plants.

[QUOTE=bower;707022]Oregonfarmer, your hybrid seeds would all be F1s.
If the bumblebees cross pollinate your tomatoes no, you will not get the same variety from the cross pollinated seed.
Every first generation cross is called an "F1" seed.
If the parents in the cross are random and unknown (bee crosses) then you will get a random assortment of different tomatoes from the crossed seed. You will not get the original varieties by saving crossed seed. If you save seeds from F1 hybrids, you have F2 seed, which will produce an assortment of different tomatoes, depending on what the parents were, even if the F1 seeds were self pollinated.

The F1 hybrid seed which you bought, was produced by deliberately crossing two stable parent lines which are maintained by the company for that purpose to produce the seed. If you want to grow F1 hybrids, you will have to buy seed.

Heirlooms and OP tomatoes have been selfed for seven or more generations, and if they self pollinate then the seeds will come true and you get the same variety. You can bag blossoms to make sure that they don't cross pollinate, and then save seeds from those fruit, and you will get the same variety from your saved seed.
Some people simply save the seeds from first and last fruit of their heirlooms, which are least likely to be cross pollinated (less bee action at those times), and sometimes get crossed seed but most of the time it is self pollinated and you do get the same variety. So that way you don't have to buy seed every year, you can save your own and know what to expect from the plants.[/QUOTE]

Ok. Are all hybrids F1? Can the seed seller take a hybrid and stabilize the seed so it becomes open pollinated. Are all heirlooms Open Pollinated?

You have been extremely helpful. Its amazing to me that tomato plants can be sold at a nursery (hybrid) and there is no warning about cross pollinating. Now I know why I can by a Hybrid plant and the tomatoes do not taste as advertised.

All the hybrid seed you buy is F1. That is because the seed is 100% predictable (except for rare mistakes) when you cross two stable parents. Every plant in the F1 should be and usually is identical. Yes you can grow out an F1 for seven generations and make it stable, but it will never be exactly like the F1. Also yes, all heirlooms are 'open pollinated' which is a term that really means "self pollinated for generations until stable". :dizzy::lol:

Also you may have mistaken me, I didn't mean that the fruit from your plants growing now will be different because bumblebees cross pollinated them. That's not the case, they should be what they are advertised to be. Only the seeds of the fruit are affected genetically by the bumblebee cross, so if you save your own seed from a crossed fruit, the plants you grow next year will be a cross of some kind and not the same as the parent plant that the seeds were taken from.

Oh thats a relief. So if I have a Hybrid (F1) from Lowes and it cross pollinates with other tomatoes, I should get the tomatoes as advertised. Its the seeds that will grow a tomato plant later that will be different.

Thx Bower

You're welcome.
There are environmental conditions that can make tomatoes taste different - better or worse - and lots of information about that here at T'ville. It's a challenge to provide the optimal conditions - right amount of water; right ferts; etc but in the end, the weather has a say as well, and some seasons a tomato may not taste as good as expected. Hope you have a good year this time! :)

Here and several places it is said that f1x(another) f1=f1
My question is that the resulting f1 is stable like you would obtain by crossing two stable lines or segregates like f2

If you cross an F1 with an F1, that will not have identical offspring as you would get in a cross of two stable lines. Principles of dominance still rule the F1, so you will see more variation in F2, but there will still be genetic variation in that F1.



Every stable line is homozygous for all its genetic traits. Say for example it is tt tangerine (orange fruit). In an F1 cross with wild type TT (non tangerine), every F1 plant from that cross has one t from the orange parent and one T from the non. They are all the same genetically, Tt.



Every hybrid F1 is heterozygous for the different traits of its parents (Not XX or xx but Xx two alleles that are different). When crossing an F1 with another F1, you have potentially four different alleles to segregate as the seed is pollinated, instead of just two. Depending on the parents and how different they are from one another, you will see more variation or less in the F1. Recessive alleles will be masked in the F1 unless both parents were carrying the same recessive.


Supposing you are crossing that F1 in the example with another non tangerine tomato. One F1 is Tt, and one is TT. So in the F1 of that four parent cross you will expect a ratio of two Tt plants to two TT. Because tangerine is only expressed when both alleles agree, none of these plants will have tangerine orange fruit, but one half of them may carry the allele. So they may look the same color, but there will be genetic variation in these F1s.

If the Tt plant self pollinates, your F2 from that plant will have (approximate/expected) ratio of one in four tt tangerine with orange fruit, one stable TT non-tangerine, and two Tt plants which could produce orange fruit in a later generation.



Suppose you have two F1 plants that are red tomatoes, where both had a black parent and are carrying a gf allele which is masked by red dominance. So the two F1's have gf/GF genetics. The cross of these two F1s would produce 1/4 black fruited in the F1.

Thank you very much for the explanation.

I have an f1 tomato seed.
I crossed a regular leaf tomato with a black potato leaf tomato. In the f2 generation if I get a potato leaf black tomato and save seed from it the offsprings will be black and potato leaf right?

Yes that's right. The black and potato leaf are both recessive genes, so they only appear when homozygous gf/gf or pl/pl.