Hi Pete - I'm buying all my stuff from Dripworks, but designed it myself. They seem like good people.

Heritage (how 'bout a name - Harry, Joe, anything but Sue :)) Thanks a million for responding. I really need some help with this - I'm completely baffled by it!

We use Peters 20-10-20 in 25 # bags exclusively - about 50 bags a year before this drought. We also use some soluble calcium nitrate (15-0-0) for toms. Our application method is inefficient. We apply it all from a 100 gal trailer-mounted sprayer, using a garden hose, row by row! With the constant filling stops, fertilizing takes at least 12 man/hours a week. I have to do this myself - the volunteer ladies don't drive the tractor. It also wastes a lot of $4 diesel because the engine must run continually at 1500 rpm to keep the mixture agitated and to operate the roller pump (the pumps cost $350 and don't last all that long!)

So we could definitely use an injector. Before I read the links, what models do you use? It would be good for us to buy exactly the same one you use. That way we would have someone to ask if we can't figure it out.

Jack

Jack,

I'm using an older model A30 Dosmatic - I've had it for several years and only install a rebuild kit every few years - I don't know if they still make that model, or what is comparable. They seem pretty trouble free as long as you inject clean water through them after every use, don't inject any non-soluble fert through them, and use the recommended upstream filter (cheap). I have a smaller Dosatron that I use as a portable injector. The important thing is to get an injector made for your input pressure, flow rate, and covers the injection ratio(s) that will work best for you. The dealer will be able to give you those recommendations. I have my A30 set at the 1:100 ratio, so, if I want to inject 1 lb of fert into every 100 gals of water, I just mix 1 pound of fert into every gal. of inject-able concentrate. The fert bags have recommended ratios for different conditions so offer good starting points.

Steve

Just installed the filter and pressure regulator. All I have left is to unroll the t-tape and I'll have 5000 sq ft under drip irrigation. Never thought I'd see the day when this was necessary here in the wet, humid, swampy Big Thicket where it's supposed to rain everyday. Gov Perry is still insisting there's no such thing as Global Warming. Perhaps not, but SUMPTHIN is sure as H... goin' on!!

If this works-out, and if our lake ever fills-up, I may switch the whole three acres over to t-tape. Why not - my sons both make more money than I EVER did - they don't need no inheritance. LOL

Jack

[QUOTE]
so, if I want to inject 1 lb of fert into every 100 gals of water, I just mix 1 pound of fert into every gal. of inject-able concentrate.
[/QUOTE]

Steve, what's "injectable concentrate"? I don't understand what you mean here. Pardon me - I'm an old house painter and pretty dumb about some things.

Jack

[QUOTE=JackE;235361]Steve, what's "injectable concentrate"? I don't understand what you mean here. Pardon me - I'm an old house painter and pretty dumb about some things.

Jack[/QUOTE]
Jack, we're all dumb until we learn it - I remember the first time I tried to use an airless sprayer:D

The fertilizer injector is mounted above a container (bucket, trash can, etc) of highly concentrated liquid fertilizer (what I'm calling the injectable concentrate)
There is a small diameter plastic tube that runs from the injector down into the container of concentrate. The injector sucks up concentrate from the container and injects it into the water line (at the pre-set ratio) when the water is flowing. It is the injector's job to compensate for different flow rates so you will always get the same amount of fertilizer per given volume of water.

Jack,

Here is a .pdf showing an injector similar to mine... the diagram of the installation might help to clear things up:
[URL="http://www.imexcoinc.com/Manual%20A15.pdf"]http://www.imexcoinc.com/Manual%20A15.pdf[/URL]

Steve

Thanks, Steve. I've got a handle on that now. It's getting simpler all the time.-:-). It will be a big labor saver for me.

Jack

Just got the tape installed and turned on the system. The preset pressure regulator was blocking the water so I removed it and regulated the pressure by turning-on enough lines. I think that filter may go the same way - I think it's blocking water flow too. I may be operating at a little higher pressure than advised, but it hasn't burst yet.

Working great now - the well holds pressure with 8 100' rows open - I had hoped for 10 or 12 rows, but eight's okay. If it ever rains and fills our 4 acre lake I'll have plenty of water again - but I'm thinking about switching everything over to this drip system - using the lake water (THAT"S when I'll need the filter - leaves, algae, fish scales, insects etc).

Except for some sand, the well water is clean. I designed a trap to catch the sand before it gets to to the pressure pump. The well I'm using was drilled 20 years ago to serve the house. But it was too sandy so we drilled another, deeper one and simply capped off the sandy one. It came in handy now.

I want to thank all you fellas for your help and advise. I appreciate it very much.

Jack

Jack,

That's great you got it up and running.

I regulate my pressure by opening the valve on each individual station, similar to what you're doing.

Are you running all the lines off of the same header line? If so, is it the 5/8" black poly you are using as a header line (off of your 2" main)? That header line is always the limiting factor for me and determines the size of my stations. I don't think you can get your full 12GPM through that small of a header (if that is what you're doing)

Also, if you are planning on using an injector I would try and keep a filter in the system - you don't want to run any sand through the injector.

Keep us updated on your progress!

Steve

Steve, my header line is 2" - because I have tons of two inch pvc pipe and many fitttings from the old gravity system we broke down a couple years ago. It's 1" coming out of the pump and into the filter and pressure regulator. Then, 2'' for the supply line and both headers, reduced to 1/2" at each row and plastic 1/2" ball valves installed.

I don't think I'm actually getting a steady flow of 12GPM like I thought. It won't run all 12 rows at once - only about 8. It seems to work best just running one zone of 6 rows at a time - the tape feels pretty "hard" with only six open, though - probably a little too high on the pressure. I'm gonna install an adjustable pressure regulator with a gauge like the one on the sprayer.

I now understand the injectors, thanks to you. But I think I'll hold-off until I decide how much land to irrigate this way. If I do all three acres, I'll need larger unit(s). That all depends on the drought ending and the irrigation pond filling back up. I'll play with this little system all winter and then I should have a better concept of what's involved. All three acres are presently covered by permanently installed 3/4" sprinklers on 2" lines and that works great when the lake pump is operational - 60GPM flow rate on that one with very moderate electricity costs - only pulls 10 amps on 240V.

Right now I'm all psyched-out over this %^$%# drought - if it's a temporary thing I'm better-off money-wise to stay with the sprinklers. From what I read you can inject fertilizer through sprinklers too - but that would be really wasteful to fertilize pathways and all! :?!?: I just hope we're not turning into a desert like So Calif.

Jack

The dogs got into the newly installed drip tape last night - they always go for something new! Tore it all up, drug it all over, chewed it to pieces etc. No problem, I've got more - and I'll run a hot wire around it about 6" high. The "ring leader" is the neighbor's dog. He leads our dogs astray. On thing's for sure - they all knew I was plenty mad this morning when I let off a couple of shotgun blasts! They didn't know I pointing in the air and they all ran off in the woods and will likely stay there awhile! :x

Jack -;)

Jack, I think you're officially a drip irrigation expert! Hopefully, your pond will fill up and you will be able to put that drip tape into long-term storage. Best of luck!

Steve

Steve, I've noticed one little thing with the drip tape and I wonder if it's normal.

When I turn off the water, the tape humps-up, twists itself into curves,etc. I have to go to the far end and pull it straight - and that pulls it loose from the fitting etc. It improves a little when I turn on the water. Obviously it's expanding and contracting as the ambient temperture changes. Should I bury it?

I planted the whole patch in turnip greens and I'm using sprinklers to get the seed germinated. The drip tape makes a nice 8-10 inch wide band of wet soil - wider than I expected in this sand. It's gonna work-out real well.

Thanks again,

Jack

Jack, yes, that's a problem if the tape is left on the surface - unless it is under plastic mulch (which will hold it in place). I usually just throw a handful of dirt on it every 10-20 feet to hold it in place until I do the first weeding. At that time, I bury the entire tape about 1" deep. You'll need to adapt it to your method of growing, but yes, you can bury it with no problem.

Steve

Jack, another method used by some local flower farmers is to run a small 2" deep trench at the plant dripline for the entire length of the row after the first weeding. Then a granular fertilizer is applied in the trench, the drip tape is placed on top, and then it is buried. This method works well for short season crops and when labor is cheap.

Also, I sometimes just apply a layer of mulch to hold the tape in place.

Thanks Steve. Dunno what I'd do withoutcha.

Jack

Steve - if your still monitoring the thread -- or other knowledgeable individuals LOL.

Do you use vacuum relief valves to keep dirt particles from siphoning back into the system when it shuts off? If I bury the tape in this fine sand, I think that might be a problem. I found the valves at the Drip Store but not much instructions - just says install at "high points."
Do I need one at every row valve or just one at the highest point, which is the main supply line at the well?

Without the valves does it actually plug the emitters and ruin the tape for good, or will it blow the emitters clean when it starts-up again? In which case, I could just open the end of each row now and then and flush water through it? This is complicated by the fact that I made my main zone too big and the well doesn't keep-up. The pressure pump goes on and off frequently while the compressor catches-up - which would preclude a manually operated relief valve.


Jack

Jack,

I don't understand the physics behind the reason for using a vacuum relief valve, but I do use one upstream of my fertilizer injector just because it said to, in the installation instructions - to keep fertilizer from flowing back into the house water supply. They also recommend them if you bury the tape.

I would guess you would need one wherever you use a valve to shut off the flow of water. But I have no clue why. I shut off my water at the injector, so only use one vacuum relief valve.

Sorry I can't be more help, let me know what you find out. I've always been curious as to how the tape can suck air (and dirt) when the valve is off.

Steve

[QUOTE]I've always been curious as to how the tape can suck air (and dirt) when the valve is off.[/QUOTE]

Yeah - seems like there's no place for the air to go, I'll put one in the main supply line near the shut off valve just to be on the safe side. The 1/2" ball valves at every row in each zone won't need to ever be shut off (guess I didn't really need to put them in there!)

This well is completly separate from the house well so I don't have to worry about back-siphon - wouldn't hurt a thing.

Thanks again, Steve

Jack

We are now cultivating the greens planted along the new drip tape for the first time. It's not going too well. The tape is all curvy, which Steve has explained, making it very difficult, if not impossible, to keep the cultivator tines away from the tape.

We normally cultivate each side of the rows with a mini-tiller, followed by another person with a wheel hoe. It's a good system, but we're gonna have to find a way to keep that drip tape in place - in a straight line. Maybe bury it shallow REAL close to the row, so the cultivator operator knows exactly where it is at all times.

We're also going to have to be much more precise with the planter - use the row marker on the planter, run a string on the first row and keep it straight. I've never bothered with that - I thought is was just for looks!

If it would just RAIN, I wouldn't have to be fooling with any of this. :(

Jack

Jack, for row flowers most of the growers here pull the drip tape to one side (like 2' away) and then lay it back after cultivation - it only takes about a minute per row. But, the cultivation here is by hand (hoe) so not sure that method would work for you. Usually, the second cultivation (when the plants are about 6" tall) buries the tape next to the plants in the process. Sometimes, depending on the crop, this burying is incorporated into the first cultivation.

I've never plugged plants into plastic mulch but for the larger plants (like tomatoes) this might be the answer to many of the drip tape idiosyncrasies.

Keep us updated,
Steve

Thanks again, Steve,
[[I]I know that you already know all this stuff - I'm writing the following for other growers who may also be drip tape beginners[/I]]

One of our volunteer ladies did just that this morning - disconnected the tape at the valve and simply moved the tapes aside and, with one person at each end, quickly put them back when finished. The tapes are now lying right next to the little plants, within the 'lay-by" mounds created by the wheel hoe. The plants will soon be big enough to not be damaged by the contortions of the tape - there may be a little minor damage if the tape actually covers the seedlings, but I think think the cultivation problem is solved.

I have one zone of 400' of permanent trellis where we will plant Sugar Snap peas pretty soon. I had some pressure regulation problems there - blew it apart a few times trying to drop the pressure by opening valves in the other zones. I finally installed a 12# preset pressure regulator and that worked. I found that I shouldn't open more than one zone at a time, so I'm going to add more lines to the trellis zone to accomodate full flow from the well. The well tank is overflowing with only 400' of line running (we have a float valve on the pump but the compressor runs all the time).

The trellis zone is is a long way, and slightly uphill, from the well and I can't have the pump turning on and off, because, despite a check valve in the 2" supply line, the water leaks out and when the pump restarts it takes too long to fill the line again. I guess the check valve is leaking. On that zone, I need to get just the right amount of water flow to keep the pump going without overflowing the tank (wasted electricity).

I also added vacuum relief valves at all zones. Thinking about our conversation re the physics of siphoning, I removed the top of one valve after I shut off the water and it was indeed "sucking air" just like they warn. So I guess it would suck dirt too.

I'm really impressed on how much we can actually irrigate with this little well, using drip tape! Seems like I can theoretically have enough zones to do the whole three acres just by changing valves every couple of hours. If it ever rains and our pond refills, I will pump the lake water into the well storage tank, install a larger pump and have unlimited water ( the lake pump delivers 60GPM - which we needed with our primitive system of sprinklers and flooding).

Jack

Re: Plasticulture

This is a step we should take, to be sure - especially with tomatoes. We tried laying it by hand once and I don't want to do that again - I want it hilled-up and stretched tight! We've been talking about a mulch layer for some time and would probably have bought one by now were it not for the drought. We have had almost no revenues this year - just a meager tom harvest in May. I'm doing all this irrigation work out of my own pocket (it's fixed infrastructure on my property), but I'll let the Gardeners for Jesus project buy the mulch layer.

Jack

Jack,

That is interesting - you have more variables to deal with than I do, since I'm on a set pressure and unlimited (except for pipe size) flow. I think coordinating a storage tank, pump, and compressor to supply water would be an interesting challenge - but one I'm happy to do without.

With your 400' foot trellis it must nice to have TOO much water for a change - probably not something anyone in Texas has had a problem with recently. :)

Steve

Where I live, the nearest community water source is 8 miles away in Woodville - but I don't envy them. They pay outrageous prices for it - so high that a lot of folks in town can't afford to water a garden. The only utility service we have is electricity and phone (old copper wires from the 1950's that won't carry the internet - we have to use satellite internet - and no bars for the cell phone. We can walk 1/2 mile out to the county road and get two bars. No tv cable either. Satellites have been a real blessing for us.)

Jack

We've been doing some experimentation today with burying the tape directly beneath the crop row in order to facilitate cultivation/weed control. A review of the literature indicates that subsurface placement in-row, with the depth determined by soil conditions and the crop itself, is widely practiced.

First we made sure we had a perfectly flat and clean seed bed. We then ran a string between stakes at each end of the 100' row and carefully drew a line with the hoe handle directly under the string for guidance, removed the string and made a 4" furrow with a narrow blade on the wheel hoe. We then layed the tape flat and straight in the furrow with each end lined-up with the stakes, and covered it by hand with a hoe. We ran the string again to make sure we were directly over the tape, made another line in the soil to guide the front wheel on the Earthway planter, and planted the row with turnip greens.

We'll water this row by hand until the seed germinates. If we didn't mess-up, the seedling line should be precisely over the tape and hopefully we can cultivate with the tiller as usual without hitting the tape. We had a long discussion over whether to bury the tape at 2" or 4". I wanted to bury it at 4" and, since I'm the boss, that's what we did.:yes:


The chief climatologist at TX A&M says that this drought will last for several years - that another La Nin~a is already forming in the Pacific, which assures a repeat of this horrible year! :cry: There was a bad drought here in the late fifties and he says that present oceanic patterns are almost indentical to that time with, he added, [I]considerably higher carbon content in the atmosphere[/I] (read: global warming) which is an aggravating factor.

Jack

Don't believe the global warming hype. One volcano erupting is the equivalent of 100 years of mans attempt to do anything.

As for drip, I would suggest dealing with Irrigation Mart in LA (The state). They are cheaper than almost everyone else and will help you properly design a system.

I inject 80% of my fertilizer. I grow melons in WI and I get by with less than half of the conventional recommendations. I use a cheaper injector called an EZ-FLO injector. It is nowhere near as accurate as a dosatron, but the plus side is I just dump in a whole bag of dry, pilled fertilizer and it continuously adds water. This works because only so much fertilizer will dissolve in water. Once that saturation point is reached you max the max concentration. As water flows into and out of the tank this mix is kept at a fairly consistent rate until the tank is near empty.

Why don't I care about being real accurate? I inject a weeks worth of fertilizer in one irrigation cycle. This means that it is more concentrated over the whole field at the beginning and less concentrated at the end. As long as you push out the whole amount in one irrigation cycle, you won't have inconsistent fertilization.

EZ-Flo's are really cheap as well. $80 for a 3 gallon. $250 bucks for one that holds a 25lb bag, etc. You don't need to premix in a 50 gallon drum, etc. I like just taking the cap off, dumping in the whole bag, putting the cap back on and i'm done until next week. Been working a treat for me for the last few years.

Keep in mind that if you need to irrigate a larger area, you can go with lower flow tape, you just need to run your cycles for a longer amount of time. We do a full acre of melons at a time on a 1" LDPE header line. We are putting in a 2" line this coming year.

You mentioned a mulch layer. I have the rain-flo 345, which is a flat bed layer. Got it on craigslist for $500. It lays the drip tape and mulch in one shot. It is a HUGE time saver. Keep in mind you need to REMOVE the mulch and tape at season's end. I used BioTelo this year. It is Biodegradable mulch. I just pull up the drip tape and wind it on a spool. The mulch is disced in and then the field plowed. You won't be able to find any trace of the mulch by next spring. Costs about three times what normal plastic mulch does, but well worth it.

You should ALWAYS have a pressure regulator and at least 150 mesh (200 is better) screen filter installed. They will NOT slow down water flow or pressure if properly installed. Sand can clog the emitters on the drip tape and you won't know it is a problem until it is too late.

Here are some youtube videos that will be visual aids:
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER5EnuUYe-s[/URL]

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=h2vUKbmZQHU[/URL]

Here is how MOST people transplant through plastic:
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWXrDLe6z8k[/URL]

Grab Toro's Ag Drip Irrigation owners manual:
[URL]http://www.toro.com/en-us/Agriculture/Pages/drip-irrigation-education/manuals/drip-irrigation-owners-manual.aspx[/URL]

That should tell you 90% of what you need to know.

And finally, here is irrigation mart:
[URL]http://www.irrigation-mart.com/html/products.html[/URL]

Ask for Robin. He is the agronomist there and knows more than you will ever need to know about drip and designing a system.

IF you do drip correctly with fertilization, you can MORE than double your yield. This year I pulled 2000lbs of cherry tomatoes off of 90 plants. Yes you read that correctly. No one believed me until I showed them.

I also sold around $4000 dollars of melons off a little over 1/3 of an acre. Yes you read that correctly.

Just remember that header lines and sub mains should be sized properly. The longer the distance to the well the larger the diameter of the pipe or you will have friction loss and it can add up quickly in small diameter hoses.

Pressure regulators should be right near the sub-mains (the lines your drip tape hooks up to). 12 PSI is what I use for my regulators.

The ends of your sub mains should also have auto-flush caps on them as well. These are special caps that have a valve in them that opens when the water pressure drops to about 2psi. This allows the water to flush out the ends, along with any sediment. It also allows air in so that any water that is at a lower elevation and is draining does not cause sand or dirt to get sucked into drip tape higher up in elevation.

ALWAYS put in a vacuum breaker on your supply line if you are injecting fertilizer. If you don't have proper venting on your drip system it is possible to suck fertilizer back into your house if the pressure in your house drops while you are irrigating or if there is vacuum in the drip system. These costs a few bucks and are well worth the investment.

I can't thank you enough for all that invaluable info! It answers most of the questions I still have - but my feeble brain is still coudy on how the injector regulates the fertilizer.

I didn't know about the flush caps - I'll get some. I do have the vacuum release valves, one for each zone, and 12# pressure regulators as well. I have a large 200 micron filter on the main supply line at the well, but right now I have the element removed - it is a disc type filter and I didn't feel it was letting enough water through . I'll put the element back and try it again.

The well is completely isolated from our house well, so feedback is not an issue. The water is very clean except for sand. I have a sand trap at the tank itself, along with a flush valve, and it seems to be catching all the sand - I haven't seen any sand in the bottom of the filter cannister.

I still haven't bought an injector - still applying the fertilizer(Peters 20-10-20 liquid in 25# bags) with the sprayer. I fertilize weekly at the rate of 1# per 400 ft of row for row crops and 1# per 100 plants for tomatoes. I also add calcium nitrate every other week to keep the pH up.

I'm still not very clear on the injection operation, but I'm learning from study. If I buy that larger EZ-Flow, and dump a 25# bag of fertilizer in it, how do I know how much is getting to the plants? Wouldn't it dump a very strong mixture at first and then get weaker and weaker? I don't understand how to control the rate of application. I'm going to study your links - maybe I can get it into my head how this works! I'll hold-off installing one until I understand how to use it.

You made a great deal on that mulch layer. We're looking for one. But used ones are always so far away!

Thanks again. What's your first name?

Jack

Moon --

I called Irrigation Mart once to get some silver plastic when we had TSWV problems with the tomatoes (the reflected light was supposed to deter the thrip). Frankly, I didn't find them all that helpful. They were very busy and real short and curt with me. I got the impresion they aren't much interested in small growers like us. I'm dealing with Dripworks in Calif on this project.

I waded through the Toro instructions (very hi-tech). Is the following right?

The injector installs in the main line on the garden side of the 12# regulator (NOT the high pressure side, right?)

Clear tubing will show me if fertilizer is flowing. It will be blue color in the line out of the injector. When it flows clear, the fertilizer will be done? With the sprayer, I mix 100 gals at a time and have complete control over how much I'm applying per foot of row by regulating tractor speed. But that injector would save us a lot of labor and $4 diesel fuel.

So, if I want to apply 1/4# of soluble fertilizer to each of 12 100' lines in a zone, I put 3# of dry 20-10-20 in the injector tank and run the water until it flows clear. There appears to be settings on the injector - what setting would I use?

I guess what's baffling me on this is how to make sure it's going on the crop uniformly. My wife uses a hose end, suction-type applicator to fertilize her flowers. She puts a pound of Miracle-Gro in it and it comes-out way too strong (real DARK blue) at first and then gradually weakens - no uniformity at all! I'm worried this injector is going to behave like that thing!

Jack

PS - Do you have problems with the soluble fertilizer getting real hard in the bag? We buy a large order once a year to get a good price and within a few months it's hard as a rock - we have to put it in a big tub and beat it with a sledge hammer! This is a very humid climate. We used to use Peters 20-20-20 and it didn't harden as quickly as the 20-10-20 does. We switched to the lower P formula because it was $10 a bag cheaper. There is a worldwide shortage of Phosphorous and it's gone through the roof.

I have never had a problem with irrigation mart. I do spend around $800 a year with them though. Still don't think that is very much.

Every University trial I have seen says the reflective much does nothing to repel any bugs. Waste of money, environmentally irresponsible and the reflections ohh my.

I install my injector right after the valve and before the screen filter. It would be the High Pressure side. Toro has their own idea. Both are valid. I fertigate everything at the same rate so it doesn't matter to me.

Clear tubing is fine to use. Many water soluable fertilizers don't have a colorant. The stuff I use is just white. I just look in the tank if I need to. When I did use colored fert I could see it in the clear tube.

The settings on the injector control mix ratio. 3000:1, 5000:1, 1000:1. This means 3000 gallons of water to 1 gallon of fertilizer mix, etc. Each fertilizer has a maximum amount that can be dissolved in water at any one point.

Have you ever poured salt into water? It will keep dissolving until eventually no more salt will dissolve. Then the salt just sits on the bottom of the glass until more water is added, then more salt will dissolve. The same is true with fertilizer and this is how the ez-flo works. It keeps adding water to the tank and sucking the concentrate off the bottom of the tank.

For your purpose you just want to get it out there as quickly as possible so you set it on the fast rate. There is a chart for the ez-flo to help you get an idea of the flo rate, etc.

[URL]http://www.ezfloinjection.com/3-9.asp[/URL]

How it works:
[URL]http://www.ezfloinjection.com/2-4.asp[/URL]

Fert only gets hard in the bag when exposed to moisture. I usually dump a half to a whole bag in the tank at once so it is less of an issue for me. Clumping seems to happen more with crystalized vs prilled fertilizer. Prilled looks like little BBs. It dissolves slower, but has less clumping and dust issues. I prefer prilled.