I will chime in in favor of the hipped rows. I make mine with a long concrete rake each spring. Lots of work but really does the job in that old sticky clay. I would also pay attention the next few rains to where the water wants to lay in the garden and dig a drainage ditch to help it drain faster.

If you have access to a sub soiler you could work in some sand and organic matter and bust up that hard pan before your season starts. I would highly recomend getting a soil test before doing anything to see exactly what you are dealing with. It is truly the best money you will spend in your garden.

Main thing to remember with clay is not to work the bed if its wet. You will end up with tons of little hard concrete balls that will take years to bust up. Let it dry up before trying to work it.

[QUOTE=dice;330081]Lower NPK than rabbit or horse manure. If you can pile it up 6 inches
by a couple of feet in the rows, it should be enough, though. If the
plants look a little underfertilized, you can fill a plastic garbage can
about 1/3 with it, fill it up with water, let it sit for a week, then water
with it for a supplement. Or dig a shallow trench along the edges of
the rows and fill it with more alpaca manure. It won't burn the plants,
so you can put it on any time during the year.

I cannot really guess about micronutrients without a soil test or
seeing the growing plants. What did your father use for fertilizer
the year of the drought, when the garden performed well?[/QUOTE]

He used Tomato-Tone for side-dressing along with that Miracle-gro that "feeds the leaves" bs. He didn't fertilize much after the first red tomato so I threw on some triple 13 mixed with epsom and borax every two weeks. The drought was last year.

I'm really not looking to use the alpaca manure as a fertilizer but as a soil helper. So I'm worried about adding my fertilizer and burning the plants out.:D

[QUOTE=neoguy;330087]this is how we do it in our backyard.[/QUOTE]

I can't do that. That would just create nesting for mosquitoes until the landscape evens out in a month or two.

[QUOTE=Barbee;330267]I will chime in in favor of the hipped rows. I make mine with a long concrete rake each spring. Lots of work but really does the job in that old sticky clay. I would also pay attention the next few rains to where the water wants to lay in the garden and dig a drainage ditch to help it drain faster.

If you have access to a sub soiler you could work in some sand and organic matter and bust up that hard pan before your season starts. I would highly recomend getting a soil test before doing anything to see exactly what you are dealing with. It is truly the best money you will spend in your garden.

Main thing to remember with clay is not to work the bed if its wet. You will end up with tons of little hard concrete balls that will take years to bust up. Let it dry up before trying to work it.[/QUOTE]

What if I want to add alpaca manure into it while it is pretty wet now and trying to rototil it in? The worst I see is getting all muddy and maybe ruining my boots... I had to dig out grow beds in the hard clay last year and have no interest in doing that ever again... Will now google "hipped up rows".:evil:

[QUOTE=kevn357;330509]What if I want to add alpaca manure into it while it is pretty wet now and trying to rototil it in? The worst I see is getting all muddy and maybe ruining my boots... I had to dig out grow beds in the hard clay last year and have no interest in doing that ever again... Will now google "hipped up rows".:evil:[/QUOTE]


Whatever you do, don't rototil wet clay:no:

[QUOTE=kevn357;330509]What if I want to add alpaca manure into it while it is pretty wet now and trying to rototil it in? The worst I see is getting all muddy and maybe ruining my boots... I had to dig out grow beds in the hard clay last year and have no interest in doing that ever again... Will now google "hipped up rows".:evil:[/QUOTE]

You can throw the manure on there now but I would strongly advise against trying to work it in while the ground is wet. One thing you could do now is dig ditches wherever you see a wet spot to help it drain away from the garden faster.

Now then...
We have a nice long growing season in Ohio. You can put your garden out as late as mid June and still have plenty of time to harvest your food. There's no need to rush your soil prep. Your clay soil won't be hard as a rock in the spring. You are going to work your organic matter (manure) in before it gets to that concrete stage. I saw someone earlier mention gypsum. See if you can find a bag of that too and have it ready for spring.

So the basic idea is to work your clay soil while it still has enough moisture in it to get the tiller in there, but its not wet. If it's sticky or tacky, hold off and check it again in a few hours. If you can't walk across the garden without getting mud on your shoes, its too wet.

You do not have to do the hipped rows, but it will help your roots drain a bit faster, which always makes for happier plants. A hipped row is just a raised row that is flattened on top to make a level surface.

I personally have always looked at manure as organic matter and do not rely on it as a fertilizer. I don't add any manure to the gardens that has not been composted and is no longer hot. After my soil test comes back and I see what I need, I buy specific items to fix the issues my soil has.

Welcome to the neighborhood! I had a similar situation when I moved into my house a few years ago. I didn't belong to Tomatoville or read any garden sites at the time, and here is what I did...

Its a pretty small area... maybe 6'x15'.

1. I dug out some of the larger clumps of clay. It was pretty easy to see the red/orange clay vs actual dirt.

2. I amended in year 1 with some generic top soil (Scotts), some "manure/humus" stuff from Lowes, and Miracle Grow Garden soil. I tilled all that in the first year. Probably 4 bags of the top soil, 2 of the manure, and 2 of the garden soil.

3. The next 2 years I added only the miracle gro garden soil. (2-3 bags)

4. The first 2 seasons, 90% of my fertilization came in the form of miracle gro watering can singles (24/8/16 - yeah, not exactly the perfect mix for tomatoes!). Last season I used Tomato Tone and Kelp Meal.

I have had 3 very successful years in a row of gardening from that spot. Its about 2 inches higher than the surrounding area which lets it drain a bit. I've had great tomato crops, good cucumber crops (when the cucumber beetles let me!), radishes, onions, carrots, etc. AND the spot only gets ~6-7 hours of sun to boot!

[B]Now, having been at tomatoville for around a year, reading and learning, I wouldn't do it that way again[/B]... but it was cheap and it worked!. Maybe you can use some of this for a "year 1 quick fix" and then implement some of the better, long-term solutions afterwards.

[QUOTE=Barbee;330518]
Now then...
We have a nice long growing season in Ohio. You can put your garden out as late as mid June and still have plenty of time to harvest your food. [/QUOTE]

In southern Ohio, you have a longer season than we do up north. He'll need to grow mostly mid-season tomato varieties, otherwise he won't be harvesting until late August if he waits to plant until mid June. Our first frost can hit as early as late September, though the average is around Oct 15th.

[QUOTE=Riceloft;330536]In southern Ohio, you have a longer season than we do up north. He'll need to grow mostly mid-season tomato varieties, otherwise he won't be harvesting until late August if he waits to plant until mid June. Our first frost can hit as early as late September, though the average is around Oct 15th.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that would be a worst case scenario situation. I was just pointing out that there is no need to rush to work clay soil when it's wet. That also gives him a nice long window to try and get the garden prepared a little better.

If I had to choose between putting out a later garden or making short cuts on garden prep, I would choose planting later. Once he gets this year out of the way, he can amend in the fall and not have to worry about things.

Clay soils are good soils, unless you ruin them by working them wet. Pick up a little clod of clay soil and squeeze it. If its plastic and gives, its too wet to work. If it breaks, it is dry enough to work.

Natural undisturbed clay soils have little openings between the particles allowing them to drain, but if it is worked, the surface of the clay will become glazed, like pottery, and be impervious to water.

The trick is going to be working in lots of compost into the clay, but ONLY after it is dry enough to be worked. If its never dry enough, and it were me, I would just start piling compost on top of it and garden in that. Eventually the worms will come back, and start improving the interface between your clay and the organic rich soil.

My view on fertilizing is that if you have too little, the plants will show
it, and you can adjust by side-dressing, top dressing, watering with
diluted liquid fertilizers, foliar feeding, etc. If you have too much,
there is nothing much you can do about it until next year.

In well-draining soil or containers, you can overwater to reduce
the impact of excess nitrogen if the plants are big enough,
but you cannot effectively do that with clay loams that are
mostly clay. The overwatering in those soils will be worse than
the overfertilizing.

You could always make the piles of alpaca manure a foot high
by two feet wide, instead of 6 inches high by two feet wide,
then cover them with a few inches of the clay soil from between
the rows before you plant. You will get more soil aggregation
under a foot of alpaca manure than you would get under 6 inches,
so that should help with restoring large pore air space to the soil
in the rows underneath the manure. (Glomalin is your friend.)

(I am thinking you are not going to try to turn it all under with
soil that is hard to dig, but build it up on top instead to make
your rows. The next year, what were the rows will be looser
from the alpaca manure, and you can build up what were
the paths between rows the same way, in effect alternating
paths and rows in alternate years, while maintaining the raised
row approach for water runoff, until the whole garden is loosened
enough to not be such a hassle to amend with a shovel or tiller.)

No working wet clay soil! Why would you want to torture yourself like that, and ruin your garden for the coming season to boot.

Maybe you can contact this person and see if they can help you?

[url]http://cleveland.craigslist.org/fgs/3644306605.html[/url]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone.

The ground is iced now. I have no intention to work with it now or until late April. I wasn't clear. I just want to pile anything I can find right next to it and hope we have a dry spring. As I said, I built compost bins next to the garden.

[QUOTE=Mark0820;331150]Maybe you can contact this person and see if they can help you?

[URL]http://cleveland.craigslist.org/fgs/3644306605.html[/URL][/QUOTE]


lol, I like that guy but I have 4 rototillers at my disposal. I just want to amend the clay soil the best I can before planting.

I suggested considering tillage radish between plants or along
the edges of rows in early fall to help break up the soil and
add organic matter for next year. Here is a good thread on
it: [url]http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=132180[/url]

(One of the posts says radishes don't like wet feet, so perhaps
they are not that appropriate in your garden, and something
else with a deep taproot would work better for the same
purpose.)

If it were me, I would consider putting lots of compost right on top and gardening on that until midsummer, or even next autumn. Then, when it is very dry, work it in with a garden fork. I can't imagine the clay being dry enough to work by April, unless it is exceptionally dry.
A lot of times, decent clay soils are ruined by construction activity while building a house. Don't know if that applies here, but if it is as wet as you say, it could be an uphill battle.

The amount of precipitation in Spring will really be the final factor with what I can do with this garden it seems. I can do nothing with it now for sure. I'm definitely adding the alpaca manure no matter what. I will just throw it on top and try to rototil it in. If we have a dry Spring, which is highly unlikely I will add lots of coarse sand too. If it's a normal wet spring, I might just try to grow it in the alpaca manure/clay mix or pick up a few yards of soil and dump it all on top and just make a giant grow bed with a wooden border. If it's a super wet Spring, I'll just grow it in newspapers! Who knows.

Thanks for all the help everyone! So many different ideas to work with. If it fails due to wetness, no big deal. I have autumn to fix it right. And I still plan to grow a few things in my containers that always produce for me.

[QUOTE=kevn357;332187]The amount of precipitation in Spring will really be the final factor with what I can do with this garden it seems. I can do nothing with it now for sure. I'm definitely adding the alpaca manure no matter what. I will just throw it on top and try to rototil it in. If we have a dry Spring, which is highly unlikely I will add lots of coarse sand too. If it's a normal wet spring, I might just try to grow it in the alpaca manure/clay mix or pick up a few yards of soil and dump it all on top and just make a giant grow bed with a wooden border. If it's a super wet Spring, I'll just grow it in newspapers! Who knows.

Thanks for all the help everyone! So many different ideas to work with. If it fails due to wetness, no big deal. I have autumn to fix it right. And I still plan to grow a few things in my containers that always produce for me.[/QUOTE]

Just PLEASE don't till the clay when it is wet. You'd be better making a lasagna bed on top of everything.

[QUOTE=Redbaron;332188]Just PLEASE don't till the clay when it is wet. You'd be better making a lasagna bed on top of everything.[/QUOTE]

That's the plan! :D
Thanks for the help.

I have hard clay, rocky soil where I live. For me, unfortunately it was not a short process to get the soil to a nice condition. The first year I was a total noob and did not use enough amendments and started way too early. Yield was poor. The second year I added gypsum and LOTS of leaf compost and aged manure. We have a real drainage problem as our yard slopes down toward the house (which is hell on the foundation) and I have tried to build up the bed closest to the house with a ton of compost and mulch every year. We don't have the issue of the beds flooding anymore. Having a rototiller has really helped and now in its 5th season, the soil is pretty gosh darnoodley good, but I never do things the "right" way LOL. I was starting seedlings in a south facing window until this year when I finally had money for a proper shop light setup.

I wonder how they managed to live off clay soil a 100 years ago before commercial fertilizers, amendments like gypsum, and without huge amounts of compost. I know they have always used manures but I bet it was mostly cover crops like winter wheat and plowing that under. There are no references that I have seen about making a compost bin in the 1880s that was large enough for 40 acres of corn.

A clue might be the three sisters garden. The mounds that many used would help the drainage and the beans would supply nitrogen. It is my understanding that they let nature do the cover crops and only reused a plot after three years of rest.

Sometimes I wonder if we work too hard amending clay and there might be easier and less expensive ways than to use 40 pound bags of compost from the local garden center.

[QUOTE=OldHondaNut;333229]I wonder how they managed to live off clay soil a 100 years ago before commercial fertilizers, amendments like gypsum, and without huge amounts of compost. I know they have always used manures but I bet it was mostly cover crops like winter wheat and plowing that under. There are no references that I have seen about making a compost bin in the 1880s that was large enough for 40 acres of corn.[/QUOTE]

They had hugely lower yield. I'm talking the difference between 20 and 150 bushel per acre. I think we get much more as a combination of better varieties and also more inputs into the soil.

[quote]
Sometimes I wonder if we work too hard amending clay and there might be easier and less expensive ways than to use 40 pound bags of compost from the local garden center.[/quote]Yes, but it comes down to the 2 out of three choice of you can have it quick, quality, or cheaply. You can pick any two but not all three.

If you want it good and right now it's going to cost you. If I was going to fix clay or any other soils cheaply, I'd start growing deep rooted plants that would work their way down into the soil and I'd put any kind of organic material I could find cheaply. Rake the neighbors lawn for leaves, things like that. I'd grow legumes to increase the nitrogen in the soil, even if it involved transplanting wild clover plants or harvesting seed from them. A $1 bag of pinto beans from the store planted as a cover would help. I'd also do it in sections or beds if you want. I wouldn't plant any corn for the first couple of years because it is a heavy feeder. I'd also lime the soil if it was acid. I live in the rural east and lime is cheap.

You've got the gist of it.

[QUOTE=TerpGal;333196]I have hard clay, rocky soil where I live. For me, unfortunately it was not a short process to get the soil to a nice condition. The first year I was a total noob and did not use enough amendments and started way too early. Yield was poor. The second year I added gypsum and LOTS of leaf compost and aged manure. We have a real drainage problem as our yard slopes down toward the house (which is hell on the foundation) and I have tried to build up the bed closest to the house with a ton of compost and mulch every year. We don't have the issue of the beds flooding anymore. Having a rototiller has really helped and now in its 5th season, the soil is pretty gosh [B]darnoodley good[/B], but I never do things the "right" way LOL. I was starting seedlings in a south facing window until this year when I finally had money for a proper shop light setup.[/QUOTE]

We all learn through experience Flanders. :))
5 years is not a long time to get things right. I'm in a similar situation. Money is not appropriate to throw at a garden. It seems so wasteful. I want to save money not eating garbage corporate "veggies" that all have the same darn 4 digit code from the west to east coast.:?

[QUOTE=OldHondaNut;333229]I wonder how they managed to live off clay soil a 100 years ago before commercial fertilizers, amendments like gypsum, and without huge amounts of compost. I know they have always used manures but I bet it was mostly cover crops like winter wheat and plowing that under. There are no references that I have seen about making a compost bin in the 1880s that was large enough for 40 acres of corn.

A clue might be the three sisters garden. The mounds that many used would help the drainage and the beans would supply nitrogen. It is my understanding that they let nature do the cover crops and only reused a plot after three years of rest.

Sometimes I wonder if we work too hard amending clay and there might be easier and less expensive ways than to use 40 pound bags of compost from the local garden center.[/QUOTE]


They composted everything. gardens were garbage dumps. They just rotated in the seasons. Then came the industrial age....

And yes, buying 40 pound bags of compost is a waste. Manure is free.;) Composting your waste is also free with a compost bin made out of pallets. But time is money.

You have plenty of advice to go with, but I'll add mine.

I've added gypsum and organic matter mixed with sand. My clay is acidic, with pine needles to boot, so I add lime every year. Rows for drainage help.

I'm in my second year of ammending the soil, and it's gotten better, but it will take time. This year I will be tilling in manure.

How big is the space?

It is constantly wet not because it is clay but because the bed is at the low point in the garden. NOTHING you mix into it will fix this.

You can:
1. Build multiple raised beds on top of it. Traditional 4" wide 18" high and 8-12 feet long are good. Plus if you build a lip to the beds its a nice place to sit and work.
2. Relocate it to a higher point in the yard.
3. Make a different part of the yard lower than this part.
4. Create some sort of drainage solution.

Clay gets a bad rap. Treated right, stuff grows in it just fine.

[QUOTE=bughunter99;335800]How big is the space?

It is constantly wet not because it is clay but because the bed is at the low point in the garden. NOTHING you mix into it will fix this.

You can:
1. Build multiple raised beds on top of it. Traditional 4" wide 18" high and 8-12 feet long are good. Plus if you build a lip to the beds its a nice place to sit and work.
2. Relocate it to a higher point in the yard.
3. Make a different part of the yard lower than this part.
4. Create some sort of drainage solution.

Clay gets a bad rap. Treated right, stuff grows in it just fine.[/QUOTE]

1. Raised beds are not an option. Too much money.
2. Can't relocate due to pests. The fence is in place and not moving.
3. Or raise entire garden.
4. This is what I'm thinking.

One giant bed... Just dump as much organic matter as possible, border it off to keep it raised and create a real grade, rototil it all in.
Weather related of course. Wet spring and lasagna gardening will be the only option.

It can be a raised beds without buying materials to build sides. I started my raised beds as just piled up soil with predetermined, set paths. The first sides I used were made from tree trimmings, driving in pegs made from the thicker stuff and then weaving the thinner stuff in and out around the pegs. Over time, I used whatever materials became available. Right now, my raised beds are surrounded with what used to be shelving, from a video store that closed.

[QUOTE=delltraveller;335941]It can be a raised beds without buying materials to build sides. I started my raised beds as just piled up soil with predetermined, set paths. The first sides I used were made from tree trimmings, driving in pegs made from the thicker stuff and then weaving the thinner stuff in and out around the pegs. Over time, I used whatever materials became available. Right now, my raised beds are surrounded with what used to be shelving, from a video store that closed.[/QUOTE]

I would love to do the same. :D I'm always looking around and browsing craigslist for some free goodies for the garden.

I'm just worried about piling up soil as a starter and then a storm hits and that raised soil flattens out in a hurry and blocks any kind of drainage I created. The drainage in this garden is just abysmal. A quick quarter inch of rain leaves inch high puddles in the paths and flattens out quite quickly.