[QUOTE=Karma;554306]Hi,

I also grow Sungold every year and love it. I didn't think I could love a tomato more than Sungold. A few years back I was at a tomato tasting and tried Orange Paruche. Everyone went nuts. It looks just like a Sungold and the flavor is similar but it has an extra something that truly makes it taste even better. This year I didn't plant any Sungold which I never thought I would do and instead planted 4 Orange Paruche. It is a winner for sure.

Happy Gardening!

Karma[/QUOTE]

Im glad to hear such praise of Orange Paruche. I have 2 plants that are loaded with cherries. Now im just waiting for them to ripen.

Thanks Karma! Another candidate to the list of possible replacements! I have Ambrosia Gold, and Orange Paruche so far and maybe worth a try is gold nugget even if we don't think it can replace Sungold. I feel a little bit of obligation to try PNW born/bred varieties living here.

Good posts Fred!

Al

Ahhh, Orange Paruche is Orange Paruche F1...

Al

Al@NC, this is correct, and I'm with fathers daughter on the seed dependency issue, so substituting Sun Gold F1 with Orange Paruche F1 is like double dependency. One of my faves used to be Early Cascade (hybrid)- I grew it every year and I took off on heirlooms and never looked back.

I'm growing OG Sunrise cherry, a little known variety offered by SSE members and hoping for the best

Sungolds remain a staple for me, both for tomatoes and for my plant sales. But here's another vote for Ambrosia Gold. Not the same as Sungold, but darn delicious! I also love Esterina F1 and Black Cherry, but I find Snow White just OK. Real surprising taste treats for me are a couple of small cherries - fruits, not plants, as both are rampant growers. Matt's Wild Cherry is a red one with a unique but consistently loved flavor according to my customers, and Russian Mini Yellow, which I got from one of Carolyn's seed offers a few years ago, also consistently wows them.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;554252]I think that simplistically, opponents of GMOs, Big Ag et al. often feel the need to divide the world into "good things" and "bad things" and hybrids (since many are used in Big Ag, and created by Big Seed) have been deemed "bad".

It is not hard to find people 100% against hybrids, that are only too willing to proclaim that for any hybrid there is a similar (if not better) OP variety. Sometimes this is true. Some times it is fiction. And, of course, not all hybrids are created by Big Seed or for Big Ag.[/QUOTE]

I agree that hybrids can have their own unique place, when nothing in the OP department can replace them. The thing is, how does one guarantee seed freshness?
It's impossible to know how old the seeds are as companies are not required to tell the production date (the best before date doesn't tell anything)..
This year I tried Pink Baby F1 for the first time, no germination after a week...(a Kosovo from 2009 is alive and well!)
I know that tomato seeds keep for years, it just seems that hybrid seeds have issues. Why pay many €€€€ for something that may or may not come alive...

In the US, there are government germination % standards that must be met by commercial growers. When I order from a reputable company, they have been good at replacing the rare pack that doesn't germinate well prior to the sell-by date. However, it the seeds are older they might lose viability more quickly after that. Given the number of rules about seed vending in the EU, is there nothing like that?

Why are seed freshness problems being associated with hybrids?

I don't see the connection.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;554481]Why are seed freshness problems being associated with hybrids?

I don't see the connection.[/QUOTE]

OK, let me spell it out: hybrid seeds are sold by large companies.... (and the seeds stored and packaged in who knows what conditions) - they cannot be saved by home gardeners.

[QUOTE=PhilaGardener;554441]In the US, there are government germination % standards that must be met by commercial growers. When I order from a reputable company, they have been good at replacing the rare pack that doesn't germinate well prior to the sell-by date. However, it the seeds are older they might lose viability more quickly after that. Given the number of rules about seed vending in the EU, is there nothing like that?[/QUOTE]


There is, of course, many rules, decrees and regulations.. ad nauseam.
There are 'best before' dates, but they do NOT tell you how old the seeds are, how they have been stored, and so on.

A certain European seed company (a large one) is notorious in its low seed count and low germination rates. It is been known to use young seasonal workers to bag their seeds, and those young bloods aren't always accurate and conscientious :?!?:
and there have been mix-ups and wrong seeds because of that..

That's why I have much more trust in a) home gardeners who have experience with seed saving b) reputable small companies such as Tatiana's and others...

The challenge with hybrids is, I can't go to small homegrowers for hybrid seeds... if I want them, they have to be bought from commercial giants.

Do you really think that large companies and hybrids are associated more with freshness problems than small companies and OP varieties?

My experience suggests the opposite.

I love heirlooms. I love OPs. But I absolutely don't think that I am more likely to be sold fresh OP seed.

Furthermore, that is a completely separate issue from whether or not seed can be saved by gardeners.

And in reality -- hybrid seed CAN and will be saved by gardeners. You just have to re-purchase the hybrid seed if you really value the specific characteristics of the hybrid.

[QUOTE=NarnianGarden;554520]OK, let me spell it out: hybrid seeds are sold by large companies.... (and the seeds stored and packaged in who knows what conditions) - they cannot be saved by home gardeners.[/QUOTE]

Hybrids do not have to be bought from "commercial giants".

Johnny's Selected Seeds a very good source for hybrids that they have found to be very valuable to small (and organic) growers. Many small farmers depend on them, and have a great deal of trust in Johnny's seed.

And Johnny's is absolutely not associated with seed viability issues. It is quite the opposite.



[QUOTE=NarnianGarden;554522]There is, of course, many rules, decrees and regulations.. ad nauseam.
There are 'best before' dates, but they do NOT tell you how old the seeds are, how they have been stored, and so on.

A certain European seed company (a large one) is notorious in its low seed count and low germination rates. It is been known to use young seasonal workers to bag their seeds, and those young bloods aren't always accurate and conscientious :?!?:
and there have been mix-ups and wrong seeds because of that..

That's why I have much more trust in a) home gardeners who have experience with seed saving b) reputable small companies such as Tatiana's and others...

The challenge with hybrids is, I can't go to small homegrowers for hybrid seeds... if I want them, they have to be bought from commercial giants.[/QUOTE]

If there is a large European seed company that has a crap product. That is completely separate from whether they sell hybrid or OP seed.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;554523]Do you really think that large companies and hybrids are associated more with freshness problems than small companies and OP varieties?

My experience suggests the opposite.

I love heirlooms. I love OPs. But I absolutely don't think that I am more likely to be sold fresh OP seed.

Furthermore, that is a completely separate issue from whether or not seed can be saved by gardeners.

And in reality -- hybrid seed CAN and will be saved by gardeners. You just have to re-purchase the hybrid seed if you really value the specific characteristics of the hybrid.[/QUOTE]

In my experience, yes, the large EU seed companies we have here absolutely have issues. Whenever I have given in to temptation to buy something from them, it has been a waste of money...

I thought it was obvious that when talking about saving seeds, we were talking about the exact same characteristics - that's the whole point with hybrids.

The reason I bought the Pink Baby F1 was I wanted to try it since it was so pretty in the picture - and I was ready to give up the cash for that. I was not looking for hybrids, I just saw the seed pack in a gardening store and I fell for it..
Given all the delicious cherry varieties I already had in different colors, that probably was a waste.. but I still hope to see some results one day.

I've grown SunGold and Sweet Million, both were given as a gift, and they germinated and grew well...
The issue is that I bought and paid for something that does not produce, whereas the Kosovo 2009 next to it is doing very well. :surprised:

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;554528]If there is a large European seed company that has a crap product. That is completely separate from whether they sell hybrid or OP seed.[/QUOTE]


Of course. But the hybrid varieties are not available without commercial companies here where I live. That's my beef - OP seeds can be swapped with other passionate ethical home gardeners, hybrids come from giants that are not always careful with their products.