early tomatoes
 

Hi Tomatoville,
I am a new member, and here is my first question. I start my tomato seeds the first week of February, indoors, in SE Michigan, using high intensity T-5 fluorescent grow lights. The plants grow very well, and are literally 30 inches tall, and are fairly sturdy and stocky by the time they go into the garden in late May. Most seed companies indicate their time to harvest from the time the transplants first go into the garden soil. So, given my plants are almost 15 weeks old from seed to garden, shouldn't these plants produce tomatoes sooner than plants that are 6 to 8 weeks old from seed to transplanting in the garden?

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]I would assume that the DTM (Date To Maturity) would be less in your case than the seed companies generally indicate. Of course, there are other environmental factors that come into play, but you should get tomatoes a little earlier than your neighbors.[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

The bigger the plant the more transplant shock. I have found it best to not let my plants go past 10 weeks before transplanting. If your going to push further you will need to up pot to a bigger container until ready to plant outside. Another issue is early flowering, which will stunt the plant and reduce production. If they flower before or soon after planting then you will need to cull those blooms until the plant has had enough time to show new growth after planting.

I don't go by the number of weeks,since too many variables involved in that for me.

I go by the size (height) of the seedlings and have always set out seedlings that are about 4-6 inches tall.

The smaller the seedling the quicker it adapts to outside conditions IMO, well not just my opinion since there are others who do the same thing.

Others here in several threads in the past have compared seedlings set out early with those set out a bit later due to weather,and they have found no difference in which ones give the first fruits since the ones set out earlier almost always catch up.

No way will I set out plants that already have blossoms if I can help it, so there's that as well. And when weather demands that they are set out horizontally,not vertically.

And there are those who have compared seedlings of the same size and variety, that is, two identical plants,one where the blossoms have been taken off ,the other one blossoms left on.

Carolyn

Hi sageib, welcome!

There are many approaches to getting earlier fruit, and one of them is to start them earlier, as you do, and pot them up decently to get them large before transplant. But the person I know who has practiced that (KarenO), would often have fruit as well as flowers on the plant before transplant time. Naturally those fruit that set before you put them out should be earlier than the "dtm" from the time of planting out, I would think. :?!?: Anyway you'll probably hear more about it from her.
I have a short and cold growing season here, but I don't have space for big pots indoors. My plants are flowering or close to it by 8 weeks and that's when I plant them, but I don't cull early blossoms as I want those early fruit. I've never seen them cause any harm with the varieties I've grown - if the plant doesn't want to set yet, they will drop the blossoms themselves, anyway. But most of them are happy enough as long as they get planted when the flowers start. And planting out at 8 weeks, I usually have lots of fruit set by 15 weeks - even some ripe ones on early varieties. So I'm wondering if you don't have flowers and fruit at 15 weeks? because if not, there is likely no benefit to the long time under lights, and maybe they are shutting down the fruit cycle until they get some root space.

This past year I had to hold my plants indoors (in beer cups) for an extra two weeks because of extreme cold weather. This definitely delayed them in setting up fruit, and it had a variable impact depending on the variety - some were really badly affected, others not so much.

So I think it depends on two things (1) how big of a pot do you have them in, and is it big enough for them to start setting fruit as if they were in the ground, and
(2) different varieties of tomato will respond differently to the treatment.

[QUOTE=carolyn137;677689]

And there are those who have compared seedlings of the same size and variety, that is, two identical plants,one where the blossoms have been taken off ,the other one blossoms left on.

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

I'd be very interested to hear from those who have done this what their results were like

[QUOTE=MickyT;677702]I'd be very interested to hear from those who have done this what their results were like[/QUOTE]

I can't conjure up specific folks, and don't have time to do a search here or via Google, but I can give you a general answer which I hope will help.

There are two stages of growth/development in the tomato cycle.First is called the vegetative phase where new growth results in roots and stems and foliage.

The sexual phase is next which results in blossom formation followed,usually, by Pollen from the anthers pollenizing the stigma,which results in ovules in the tomato ovary being fertilized which forms a baby fruit if you will.

Energy for the plant to do all of this is derived from photosynthesis in the leaves and involves mainly ATP and GTP.

It takes more energy to sustain sexual than vegetative growth.It takes at least 3 to 4 days in one cycle.

So if you take off blossoms,you save energy.

So for most folks taking off blossoms with most varieties does not lead to earlier fruits since the next cycle starts in just 3-4 days..

If I goofed above please let me know here in this thread since I have been typing fast to get some bills paid,property tax bill, and some others,ready to go out tomorrow.:)

Carolyn

[QUOTE=sageib;677613]Hi Tomatoville,
I am a new member, and here is my first question. I start my tomato seeds the first week of February, indoors, in SE Michigan, using high intensity T-5 fluorescent grow lights. The plants grow very well, and are literally 30 inches tall, and are fairly sturdy and stocky by the time they go into the garden in late May. Most seed companies indicate their time to harvest from the time the transplants first go into the garden soil. So, given my plants are almost 15 weeks old from seed to garden, shouldn't these plants produce tomatoes sooner than plants that are 6 to 8 weeks old from seed to transplanting in the garden?[/QUOTE]
I heard my name mentioned...
Short answer, yes.
Firstly, DTM is much more accurate from germination to first ripe fruit. From Set out means too much variability. Imo Of course a healthy 15 week old plant properly hardened off and blooming will fruit sooner.
There’s more than one way to grow tomatoes :)don’t believe anybody who says there isn’t.
well grown large blooming transplants planted out at the correct time, not early will definarely allow a short season grower to harvest tomatoes sooner and over a longer season. A greenhouse or good cold frame helps tremendously along with the dedication to care for the seedlings for a longer period of time.
The secret is they do not go in the garden early. They go in when it is reliably warm, in my area that is the end of May for plants sown about the 20 of March and they are grown in large enough pots and fertilized. Minimum 1litre, pref 1 gallon
I reliably have at least some ripe full sized tomatoes by the second week in July
Until frost.
Northern gardeners who follow the traditional wisdom of planting out small non blooming transplants at the end of May will not be able to grow most good mid season tomatoes well or will not have ripe fruit until mid -late August and frost is then a threat. If you limit yourself to early varieties it’s not so important (which many northern gardeners do) but I don’t enjoy them and much prefer the huge selection of mid season beauties.

[QUOTE=carolyn137;677737]I can't conjure up specific folks, and don't have time to do a search here or via Google, but I can give you a general answer which I hope will help.

There are two stages of growth/development in the tomato cycle.First is called the vegetative phase where new growth results in roots and stems and foliage.

The sexual phase is next which results in blossom formation followed,usually, by Pollen from the anthers pollenizing the stigma,which results in ovules in the tomato ovary being fertilized which forms a baby fruit if you will.

Energy for the plant to do all of this is derived from photosynthesis in the leaves and involves mainly ATP and GTP.

It takes more energy to sustain sexual than vegetative growth.It takes at least 3 to 4 days in one cycle.

So if you take off blossoms,you save energy.

So for most folks taking off blossoms with most varieties does not lead to earlier fruits since the next cycle starts in just 3-4 days..

If I goofed above please let me know here in this thread since I have been typing fast to get some bills paid,property tax bill, and some others,ready to go out tomorrow.:)

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

Thanks Carolyn for that great explanation, which of course leads me to more questions. Does this cycle continue all season and is it regular (3 days sexual then 3 days vegetative)? Does the amount of sunlight affect the length of the phases? When fruits have already set, do they grow and ripen during only one of these phases or simultaneously while the plant continues to cycle through them?

speaking of MI, i would like to know how/what variety that person was growing last summer near the Clawson Park Car Show near the Royal Oak land - tall conduit poles - like 12' high, maybe 15 plants, and many nice looking maters between his and the neighbors driveway

Yes, time inside doesn't fully compensate time outside and I think that has mostly to do with light intensity (sun is still much stronger than grow lights) and possibly day/night temperature difference.

The mild climate where one grows the seedlings combined with high nitrogen leads to delay in flowers. One can count number of leaves to first flower cluster. For same variety one would assume it's always the same. It isn't and can vary up to 3-4 leaves more if conditions are too cozy.

[QUOTE=MickyT;677754]Thanks Carolyn for that great explanation, which of course leads me to more questions. Does this cycle continue all season and is it regular (3 days sexual then 3 days vegetative)? Does the amount of sunlight affect the length of the phases? When fruits have already set, do they grow and ripen during only one of these phases or simultaneously while the plant continues to cycle through them?[/QUOTE]

"Vining crops like tomatoes produce vegetative and generative growth at the same time"
[url]http://web.extension.illinois.edu/lms/eb107/entry_6973/[/url]

But Carolyn is talking about the early vegetative growth, before the plants start to produce flowers.

There is more info about the triggers for vegetative vs reproductive growth in the attached pdf by Dr. Merle Jensen.

[QUOTE=bower;677858]
There is more info about the triggers for vegetative vs reproductive growth in the attached pdf by Dr. Merle Jensen.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the PDF - there is some good and useful information in there.

[QUOTE=bower;677858]"Vining crops like tomatoes produce vegetative and generative growth at the same time"
[url]http://web.extension.illinois.edu/lms/eb107/entry_6973/[/url]

But Carolyn is talking about the early vegetative growth, before the plants start to produce flowers.

There is more info about the triggers for vegetative vs reproductive growth in the attached pdf by Dr. Merle Jensen.[/QUOTE]

Yes, if you read above I was outlining about early vegetative growth first, and tried to explain about the sexual phase next and where energy came from,etc, that's in a post above.

But the I was asked a different question..... if it made a difference if and when EARLY blossoms were taken off as to early fruits and that's the last issue I dealt with here.

Carolyn

Starting tomatoes in February
 

When I lived in Roseville, a suburb of Detroit, I started my tomatoes in small cells in a mini greenhouse in a south facing window. When they grew to aout 2 sets of true leaves, I transplanted them to drinking cups from fast food restaurants. I let them grow to as big as they wanted and set them out Memorial Day buried completely til only 2 sets of leaves showed above ground. Then I put a Tomato Boomer on each side of each plant. I had the biggest (not tallest) earliest, strongest and most productive tomato bushes in the neighborhood. I was the envy of all tomato growers in the vicinity. (Too bad I can't do it down here in Florida with all the nematodes). Sooo, I suggest you go ahead and try it.

My personal experience matches what Karen described above. One of the pleasures I seek in the new growing season is that very first ripe tomato. Of course other early milestones and objectives are desirable too, and we have various means to achieve them. But aiming for that first fruit is always a fun goal of mine, and for the past ~4 years, that came from plants that carried blossoms when they went in the ground. It doesn't matter if that plant never grows as big as expected, nor yields a lot of fruit -that's why we grow many others. If those early plants give me a few early fruits, they've done their job.

Ideal growing conditions are needed throughout: lots of light (intense and duration), large pot (1 gal), proper hardening, then set-out with minimal disruption. Once plant is established and a couple of blossoms are close to fruit set, I cull the others. The only thing I plan to do differently this year is to wait 1-2 weeks longer until the ground gets warmer.

We're talking full size fruit here, cherries don't count. Black Krim won for me 2 years in a row.

KarenO,
Thank you for the info. I do almost all of your suggestions. In my basement, my seeds are planted in 3 inch paper cups, filled with potting soil, warmed by my grow lights to 80 degrees. At first true leaves, I turn on a 4 inch fan set at low to simulate an outdoor breeze to stimulate the plants. At 3 weeks from germination, (the beginning of March), the grow lights and plants go into my attached garage. Temps range between 50 and 60 degrees, with a 6 inch fan to simulate a somewhat stronger breeze. At the beginning of April, I transplant all plants into plastic 4x4x4 inch pots. Plants are watered when needed, and fertilized every 2 weeks with a 1/4 dose solution of MG tomato food. At the end of April all plants are again transplanted into 1 gallon plastic pots. All plants are then put in my homemade greenhouse, ( a 4x4x4 foot structure wrapped with 6 mil opaque plastic, with a double hinged roof and access doors) At the end of May (approx.) the plants are literally outgrowing the greenhouse, and are taken out of their pots and transplanted into the garden. Even after all this preparation (even if I love every second of it) my 60 day DTM tomatoes give me only a few ripe ones in mid June, and only start to produce decently in mid July. What else can I do to get tomatoes earlier?

[QUOTE=MickyT;677754]Thanks Carolyn for that great explanation, which of course leads me to more questions. Does this cycle continue all season and is it regular (3 days sexual then 3 days vegetative)? Does the amount of sunlight affect the length of the phases? When fruits have already set, do they grow and ripen during only one of these phases or simultaneously while the plant continues to cycle through them?[/QUOTE]

There many factors involved and you've named some of them

Yes,the amt of sunlight is one, and does affect the cycle, but usually only near the end of the season

Fruits are at all stages of ripening on the same plant

And I'm talking primarily about indeterminates.

What did I forget to mention this time?;)

Carolyn

[QUOTE=sageib;678103]What else can I do to get tomatoes earlier?[/QUOTE]

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]Try putting them in the garden earlier. The end of May is two or three weeks after I do my final transplant and we're in the same general area. [/FONT][/SIZE][/B]

I wonder which varieties of 60 DTM tomatoes you're growing? Many toms with a nominal dtm of 60 days are also selected to be tolerant or well adapted to early season temperatures, so they may do better simply planted out earlier as KD suggests.
I think the reason for having a DTM "from date of transplant" is to acknowledge the time it takes for tomatoes to develop enough root system to pump out the fruit as well. You are providing some extra root space with a 1 gal pot but it's not enough for full production to kick into gear.
Larger pots would be another option, but then you would need a bigger greenhouse. :)

Bower,
I buy my seeds on line from either Johnnys or Burpee, and try to choose varieties as close to 60 DTM that give me my chosen size. Last year, I planted Burpees Early Pick VF Hybrid (62 days), and Johnnys Pink Beauty F1 (74 days) Even with the 12 day difference, some of the Pink Beauties bore fruit earlier than some of the Early Pick plants. Go figure. Do you think a 2 gallon pot would be big enough to give the root ball room to run?

[QUOTE=sageib;678274]Bower,
I buy my seeds on line from either Johnnys or Burpee, and try to choose varieties as close to 60 DTM that give me my chosen size. Last year, I planted Burpees Early Pick VF Hybrid (62 days), and Johnnys Pink Beauty F1 (74 days) Even with the 12 day difference, some of the Pink Beauties bore fruit earlier than some of the Early Pick plants. Go figure. Do you think a 2 gallon pot would be big enough to give the root ball room to run?[/QUOTE]

I don't have the experience to advise about that, you may have to experiment. :?!?:
I usually plant mine from beer cups right into 5 gallon or larger containers - but I'm growing in containers anyway with no plan to transplant into the ground. I have grown a few in 1 gal for transplant and a few I kept in 1 gal just for the sake of trying a fruit or two (which is about all they produced). I would imagine it gets harder and harder to transplant when you move up from a gallon to two or larger, because the plant will be larger as well, but it may be worth a try.

If I was in your position and wanted some steady fruit from June onward, I would probably plant one or two into 5 gallon pots and let them stay in the pot and provide the early maters while the others are getting on the go.

The other possibility is to experiment with different varieties that meet your size and earliness criteria, as well as trying different size containers. That is one thing I have noticed definitely, from growing the same variety several years, that some varieties just need that root space much more than others, and will be cranky and late if there's any delay in the root space.

Cherries can do a lot in small containers, more than others, but that is not the size you wanted!

If you do decide to experiment, I hope you will take some pics and post your outcomes, so we can all learn from it. :)

Bower,
Thank you for your opinions. I love this site, and am learning as I go.