Kumato
 

Yes I ate them. Yes they are quite good. Yes I saved seeds. Yes I will plant them. And yes I will eat them too.

So, what do you reckon this variety is really?

It is a [URL="http://www.kumato.com/en/Pages/AllRightsReserved.aspx"]F1 hybrid called Kumato, from Syngenta[/URL].

If you save seed you will see quite a bit of segregation for taste and color.

I like it too.
Last year I planted F2 seeds and saves seeds and I am growing F3.
The F2 produced exact the same fruits That I buy from Trader Joes.

Gardeneer

[B]About Growth Habit:[/B]
[B]Indet: RL
Height : ~ 4-5ft.
DTM: mid to late season. [/B]
I planted it in 5 gallon container last year. It was not a vigorous plant at all. Only forked once.
Not very productive but then it was worth growing in 5gl container. Not much maintenance required.
So far my plant this year is better than last year.

Kumato was bred in Spain and Ilex in Spain sent me Negro de Olmeda which he said was a sister to Kumato.

There are many links here at Tville

It was initially introduced to the US under another name by Dulcea, as Rosso Bruno

[url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?[/url]

wiki

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumatot=34947&highlight=Kumato[/url]


When Syngenta got a hold of it their first description of it was hilarious,as in from The Galapagos islands,somehow connected to turtles,with sexual overtones of why eating Kumatos would be good for you.I think Terry at Secret Seed Cartel may still have that info,I did as well but too hard to find in my faves.

I know Ilex very well, and he wouldn't be dealing with F1 hybrids,so when he sent me the sister to Kumato, Negro de Olmeda, it implies,at least to me,that perhaps Kumato and the former one were initially bred and then who knows what happened whe Snyngenta got a hold of it.

Many have tried to make selections from the F1,with varying results

[url]https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1402&bih=778&q=Kumato+wikipedia&oq=Kumato+wikipedia&gs_l=img.12..0i5i30j0i24.3635.26426.0.30794.18.17.1.0.0.0.125.1996.0j17.17.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.17.1871.g3t8TMsVUsA[/url]

Ok,I just had to see if I could find where Kumato was said to be from the Galapagos IS, and I did. Terry's blog about that as well as several others talk about the sexual powers of Kumato that Syngenta alluded to

[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=Kumato+galapagos+islands&hl=en&biw=1402&bih=778&site=imghp&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi598HEpKfMAhUFWD4KHRS-B24Q_AUIBigA&dpr=1[/url]


Happy reading. ;)

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn. You are a living encyclopedia of tomato knowledge. I have your book, btw. Love it, but such a fraction of your knowledge.

Anyway, here goes the hopeless experimenter in me. I never met a tomato, hybrid or not that I didn't want to save seeds from and grown.

I saved seed from them as well. Haven't grown them out yet. Should be interesting :)

i tried the same experiment with the mini kumatos I purchased at the grocery store. I thought they tasted pretty good, but when I grew them out next to Black cherry they weren't nexrly as tasty. What taste fairly good for a winter home grown deprived person just doesn't cut it when you have the real thing.

I grew one out last year and not really worth it. It was Thanksgiving 2014 when my local market had them on sale in an enormous tower at 3lbs for 5dollars. Usual price was 1lb for 5dollars. (expensive!). They had good color and texture and a bit tangy-sweet. A winter treat but still needed that splash of white balsamic trick for a winter tom to be even close to good eating.

This year the packaging changed a couple times and they no longer call them 'Kumato'. I think the 2014 batch were grown in Canada. This year grown in Mexico and not nearly as good and were mealy. Just tried them once.

I just use my frozen garden slices and make a salsa in the winter months.

Late season, thick walled, flavorless space holder...

I've seen a patent for Kumato tomatoes. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something weird with them. I'm not talking about PVP or something like that. I mean an actual patent. That seems to imply they might be GMO or something similar, since patents aren't supposed to be granted for traditionally bred varieties.

[QUOTE=shule1;555387]I've seen a patent for Kumato tomatoes. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something weird with them. I'm not talking about PVP or something like that. I mean an actual patent. That seems to imply they might be GMO or something similar, since patents aren't supposed to be granted for traditionally bred varieties.[/QUOTE]

Yes,in my above post I linked to Kumato at Wiki,but when I just looked at it it had changed,so I fetched it again

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumato[/url]

Where again it states it was patented.

I know Ilex very well and when he said that Olmeda was the sister to Kumato, both being OP,I'm having problems seeing anything GMO about it,but I can ask him again if you want me to.

There are many varieties that are patentended that have nothing to do with GMO's they patentent them to indicate ownership.

I also agree that patenets are not usually given to traditionally bred varieties, OR even original non bred varieties,but I ask if you are aware of the situation with Goose Creek tomato, as an excellent example of making up claims about a variety to indeed be granted a patent.

Jimmy Williams did that and his application for a patent was denied.

Carolyn

There are no GMO tomatoes currently on the market.

[QUOTE=shule1;555387]I've seen a patent for Kumato tomatoes. So, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something weird with them. I'm not talking about PVP or something like that. I mean an actual patent. That seems to imply they might be GMO or something similar, since patents aren't supposed to be granted for traditionally bred varieties.[/QUOTE]

Here is a picture that shows a Kumato that I harvested last year.

It came true 100%, just like the tomato that I took seed from.
This year I will try to cross it with one of dark tomatoes.

Gardeneer

@Fred and Carolyn

I've also heard that there are no GE tomatoes on the market, currently (a year or so ago), but life changes fast and they have a habit of telling us about these things years after we've already been eating them (with some notable exceptions wherein they have traits that appeal to consumers rather than just to commercial growers); also, new GE tomatoes are said to exist, whether or not they're on the market, yet, so I've heard. That could be false, but probably easy to verify. When they are released they'll most likely be in grocery store produce, or products, though (not seed and plant catalogs). Anyway, that's why I said, 'or something', too. A lot of genetic manipulation can occur without genetic engineering (I'm not talking about via conventional breeding either, although conventional breeding is potentially *part* of the process). I don't really think Kumato is a GMO. It just looked like a possibility is all.

I'm interested to know why the Kumato tomato is patented more than I'm interested in knowing if it's genetically engineered, but an answer to the first should answer the last. There's very little legal ability to patent a tomato if it's not genetically engineered, though, as far as I know (tell me if I'm wrong), but I imagine exceptions may exist. I'm not talking about plant breeders rights when I say patents. However, companies don't always go for legal patents when they go for patents, and the patents are sometimes revoked later on when they're discovered to be illegal. But the question is, is it legal to infringe on an illegal patent that has not yet and may not ever be revoked? I mean, even if you go to court and prove that it's illegal, and they revoke it, will you still be prosecuted if you infringed? I'm guessing that's for the court to decide as far as they're concerned.

Anyway, you don't have to answer any of those questions I asked. I don't really want to get into an involved discussion. I'm just kind of obsessive, and responding with more information and thoughts than is probably common for conversion.

[QUOTE=shule1;555518]@Fred and Carolyn

I've also heard that there are no GE tomatoes on the market, currently (a year or so ago), but life changes fast and they have a habit of telling us about these things years after we've already been eating them (with some notable exceptions wherein they have traits that appeal to consumers rather than just to commercial growers); also, new GE tomatoes are said to exist, whether or not they're on the market, yet, so I've heard. That could be false, but probably easy to verify. When they are released they'll most likely be in grocery store produce, or products, though (not seed and plant catalogs). Anyway, that's why I said, 'or something', too. A lot of genetic manipulation can occur without genetic engineering (I'm not talking about via conventional breeding either, although conventional breeding is potentially *part* of the process). I don't really think Kumato is a GMO. It just looked like a possibility is all.

I'm interested to know why the Kumato tomato is patented more than I'm interested in knowing if it's genetically engineered, but an answer to the first should answer the last. There's very little legal ability to patent a tomato if it's not genetically engineered, though, as far as I know (tell me if I'm wrong), but I imagine exceptions may exist. I'm not talking about plant breeders rights when I say patents. However, companies don't always go for legal patents when they go for patents, and the patents are sometimes revoked later on when they're discovered to be illegal. But the question is, is it legal to infringe on an illegal patent that has not yet and may not ever be revoked? I mean, even if you go to court and prove that it's illegal, and they revoke it, will you still be prosecuted if you infringed? I'm guessing that's for the court to decide as far as they're concerned.

Anyway, you don't have to answer any of those questions I asked. I don't really want to get into an involved discussion. I'm just kind of obsessive, and responding with more information and thoughts than is probably common for conversion.[/QUOTE]


If you want to know why the tomato is patented, read the patent. It's linked from the Wiki page or here:

[url]https://www.google.com/patents/US7612261?dq=United+States+Patent+7612261&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G5IHVPr3A4rpoASS8YKoBQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA[/url]

[QUOTE=imp;555523]If you want to know why the tomato is patented, read the patent. It's linked from the Wiki page or here:

[url]https://www.google.com/patents/US7612261?dq=United+States+Patent+7612261&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G5IHVPr3A4rpoASS8YKoBQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks so much imp (just noting that the words much and imp were initially together which made you a chimp, ;))only you would find the exact Patent that was assigned to Syngenta and as usual, the person who bred it initially is out, as to remuneration, as I see it.

But it was a lot to read so I was just skimming, as it were, so it deserves another read from me when I have time,and hopefully others will read it as well.

Fred,you would have a handle on this patenting issue since I know there was another thread where this was discussed and you were one of the main persons who posted and I'm sure you remember it as well.

Carolyn

I don't have a great understanding of what can be patented, or not.

I do know that often it is not always as simple as a "variety" being patented. It may have more to do with the variety AND a set of growth conditions that are supposed to be important for growing the variety.

And as you have pointed out, people often apply for patents, and they are not granted. And that muddies the waters too -- with regard to what one finds when searching for patents.

What is clear is that there are no GMO tomatoes currently on the market. If there were, reputable Anti-GMO sources would make sure we know about them -- well before they are even available.

[QUOTE=imp;555523]If you want to know why the tomato is patented, read the patent. It's linked from the Wiki page or here:

[url]https://www.google.com/patents/US7612261?dq=United+States+Patent+7612261&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G5IHVPr3A4rpoASS8YKoBQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks. I had that link and read most of the patent once, but I lost it.

It should be noted that the patent you linked to makes it apparent that they're thinking about GE tomatoes. (It talks about genetic engineering concepts a lot in it.) I'm not saying whether the current Kumato tomatoes are GE, though.

Someone is apparently about to release a purple GE tomato with a snapdragon gene, in Canada, in the near future, from what I've read:

[url]http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25885756[/url]

I'm guessing this is the same tomato, but I might be wrong:

[url]http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2015/10/gm-genetically-modified-tomato-healthy-nutrient-resveratrol[/url]

It's nice that they're doing something that isn't pesticide/herbicide-related for once. What I don't see on there is anything about testing it on humans before shipping it to market. Some people act like if one GMO is safe, then they're all safe, or if one is unsafe, than they're all unsafe (neither of which is logical). Hopefully they're testing it. Anyway, the fact that it's purple should make it easier to identify in regular grocery stores (even though purple tomatoes, though different, exist outside of grocery stores). Are snap dragons edible? Hopefully the tomato doesn't make some weird protein that'll take us 50+ years to get used to before we can digest it without consequences. One worry I have with this is that there might be such a thing as too much of a good thing, when it comes to anthocyanins and resveratrol, as well as that tofu chemical. I don't know, though. I guess we'll find out! (Or the Canadians will, for us.)

In 2008 there was a high anthocyanin GE tomato they were experimenting with. I don't know if it's the same one, but they did a small study on mice (not people) at that point, which seemed positive.

This link implies that there are two GE tomatoes they're working on (while I thought the other one was just talking about one with all of those nutrients at the same time): [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/gm-tomatoes-scientists-create-disease-fighting-strain-of-fruit-a6708996.html[/url]

Anyway, I'm still worried about home gardeners trying to grow these when they come out, though. A lot of people won't realize they're not supposed to, and I doubt they'll have a sticker on them that says not to (they really should, if they're going to patent them and not grant that license to the public). I'm also worried about them being used in unauthorized breeding programs such that we might get illegal tomatoes without knowing they're illegal later on (same with Kumato and any other patented tomatoes out there, if the patent covers what home gardeners might do with them).

It should be noted that Kumato also seems to refer to multiple varieties or lines of tomatoes, rather than just a single variety. So, it's an ambiguous variety for gardeners. Three people might be growing Kumato, and all end up with different lines of tomatoes, is what I'm saying. But, I guess at least one of them is a hybrid (and people know that).

Kumato seeds are/ lave never been promoted and sold to the public. It is only grown by the commercial GH growers. You cannot buy Kumato seeds anywhere.

Another Point: I believe that Kumato is an stablised hybrid ( OP) to facilitate large quantity of seed being collect and sold at low cost. I think there are other Hybrids in that category as well.

Gardeneer

Gardeneer

The snap dragon gene inserted into the genome was indeed a GMO and was bred in England and I know there are some threads about it here at Tville and it's not related to Kumato at all. Another GMO one was bred in Italy , and it too was a small black cherry.

This is an excellent link about tomatoes and GMO's and there are no GMO ones currently being sold,they say, as did Fred.

[url]http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/grocery_shopping/fruit_vegetables/15.genetically_modified_tomatoes.html[/url]

Here's the GMO one I remember best

[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=fish+gene+in+tomato&hl=en&biw=1402&bih=780&site=imghp&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIzbKbzbHMAhWI2D4KHTcaAe0Q_AUIBigA&dpr=1[/url]

And here's one that I also remember b/c it was tested in NYS and I bought fruits,but I wouldn't call it a GMO since it was a tomato gene itself that was altered

[url]http://agresearchmag.ars.usda.gov/1995/jul/tomatoes[/url]

Those darn tomatoes sat on my counter forever, and got wrinkled,but never rotted either. I started calling them the Summer Spring Winter Fall tomatoes.:lol:

Carolyn

@Carolyn

That's pretty interesting. Thanks for the links.

I didn't mean to imply that the genetically engineered tomatoes I talked about were related to Kumato. I was just mentioning them because some people acted like no GE tomatoes would be on the produce market any time soon (although maybe they were thinking of seeds being sold to home gardeners). I should have quoted someone on that, and directed my response at the quote, I suppose, but I didn't want to make anyone feel like I was talking to them specifically.

@Gardeneer

I didn't mean to say or imply that Kumato was ever sold to home gardeners as seeds or plants for gardening purposes. It is, however, sold in supermarkets as fruit to everyone (and people are often tempted to grow the seeds, which is what I meant).

@the manufacturer

Another thing that comes to mind is that it's not clear from the packaging of the fruit what license they're giving people with the sale of the tomato (potentially even from a legal standpoint), although one can safely assume that all rights are reserved. It would be nice if they put a little blurb on the package (seeing as Kumato tomatoes come in packages). (I don't need to know personally—so there's no need to tell me what rights I have and don't have for Kumato tomatoes, but the consumers do need to know, because they're the ones who might want to plant them.)

I don't believe it is an OP. I saw lots of segregation of traits when I grew saved seed. And my experience was that under my normal field conditions, they were pretty much the worst tomatoes in the field.

[QUOTE=Gardeneer;555698]Kumato seeds are/ lave never been promoted and sold to the public. It is only grown by the commercial GH growers. You cannot buy Kumato seeds anywhere.

Another Point: I believe that Kumato is an stablised hybrid ( OP) to facilitate large quantity of seed being collect and sold at low cost. I think there are other Hybrids in that category as well.

Gardeneer

Gardeneer[/QUOTE]

No one said anything about "any time soon". We just said that there aren't any on the market.

[QUOTE=shule1;555770]@Carolyn

That's pretty interesting. Thanks for the links.

I didn't mean to imply that the genetically engineered tomatoes I talked about were related to Kumato. I was just mentioning them because some people acted like no GE tomatoes would be on the produce market any time soon (although maybe they were thinking of seeds being sold to home gardeners). I should have quoted someone on that, and directed my response at the quote, I suppose, but I didn't want to make anyone feel like I was talking to them specifically.

@Gardeneer

I didn't mean to say or imply that Kumato was ever sold to home gardeners as seeds or plants for gardening purposes. It is, however, sold in supermarkets as fruit to everyone (and people are often tempted to grow the seeds, which is what I meant).

@the manufacturer

Another thing that comes to mind is that it's not clear from the packaging of the fruit what license they're giving people with the sale of the tomato (potentially even from a legal standpoint), although one can safely assume that all rights are reserved. It would be nice if they put a little blurb on the package (seeing as Kumato tomatoes come in packages). (I don't need to know personally—so there's no need to tell me what rights I have and don't have for Kumato tomatoes, but the consumers do need to know, because they're the ones who might want to plant them.)[/QUOTE]

@Fred

Sorry. I just got the impression that you thought none were already in the works because of your second sentence here:

> What is clear is that there are no GMO tomatoes currently on the market. If there were, reputable Anti-GMO sources would make sure we know about them -- well before they are even available.

But you're right. Anti-GMO companies have ranted about at least the 2008 tomato (if not the others, too), but they didn't get enough press for me to have heard much about them without trying to find out about it on my own. They probably have more reason to focus on GMOs related to pesticides for the present, as well as those that can cross-pollinate things miles away.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;554396]It is a [URL="http://www.kumato.com/en/Pages/AllRightsReserved.aspx"]F1 hybrid called Kumato, from Syngenta[/URL].

If you save seed you will see quite a bit of segregation for taste and color.[/QUOTE]

That's strange. Most people can't see any segregation and grow it and save seed as they do with any OP variety. I don't think it is a real hybrid outside of papers. That wouldn't surprise me as you can make more money and protect them more. It wouldn't be the first case.

[QUOTE=ilex;556054]That's strange. Most people can't see any segregation and grow it and save seed as they do with any OP variety. I don't think it is a real hybrid outside of papers. That wouldn't surprise me as you can make more money and protect them more. It wouldn't be the first case.[/QUOTE]

I know quite a few people who have taken , eg, Brandy Boy to F10, without any segregation.
So there are two possibilities (in my mind).
1- The F1 was actually an OP (stabilized).
2- Somehow the F1 was born stable, genetically.

What you do in segregation is to find a genetically plant that is the same as F1. So there exist a probability that all seeds from the F1 might be what one wishes to find.
JMO

Gardeneer

[QUOTE=Keiththibodeaux;554394]Yes I ate them. Yes they are quite good. Yes I saved seeds. Yes I will plant them. And yes I will eat them too.

So, what do you reckon this variety is really?[/QUOTE]

Which grocery store did you buy them from?

Most people I know have seen wide segregation, that starts with the color of the seedlings.


[QUOTE=ilex;556054]That's strange. Most people can't see any segregation and grow it and save seed as they do with any OP variety. I don't think it is a real hybrid outside of papers. That wouldn't surprise me as you can make more money and protect them more. It wouldn't be the first case.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;556132]Most people I know have seen wide segregation, that starts with the color of the seedlings.[/QUOTE]

No doubt.
I was/am talking about the "Probability " and genetic inheritance.