Seedlings suddenly dying
 

This is very weird.

A friend who is an expert, grew a batch of tomato seedlings and they all came up and were fine - until one day they were all dead. Not all of the batches were affected.

Another tomato grower who has load of experience had a similar problem and suspects the potting soil (MG).

A guy from the garden club who has been starting plants from seed for many years, lost all of his petunias after they had been growing well for a month.

Today another friend told me the same story. One batch of her tomato seedlings, all the same variety, died from the top down. She said it was not damping off. I'm pretty sure she uses Pro-mix.

Sorry that this is all second-hand information, but I think we need to discuss this and try to figure out what the common denominator could be.

Linda

The common denominator may well be the huge amount of people getting into the so called hobby.
This in turn could mean the manufactures are stepping up the pace and putting out an inferior product.
Just an idea and no way to prove it on my end.

I wonder if seed borne disease factors in.
Everyone and their pup has a little website and is selling seeds these days including from some highly seed borne disease prone areas in the American south for example with no germination testing, no quality control or even the barest hint of such niceties as a phytosanitary certificate. The flashy websites give people false confidence that they are dealing with professional seedhouses but often that is not the case, it’s an unregulated, unlicensed, Uninspected under the kitchen table enterprise charging top dollar for what is possibly dubious quality seeds.
Clearly there are excellent smaller experienced seed sellers who have sold quality seeds for years but there are many newer ones in the last couple of years as well and more all the time.
Combine this with a lot of trading with sometimes unknown or inexperienced sources who may also be saving seed from diseased plants ..
I don’t know this is a factor in the circumstances you are speaking of directly but numerous viral and bacterial diseases (including rapidly lethal wilts)can be seed borne.
Reusing old pots support sticks etc without cleaning can also be a source of fungus and pathogens.
Healthy plants don’t just die. I see planting medium blamed a lot, especially one certain brand but perhaps it’s something else.if the opportunity exists for a professional diagnosis of the “ cause of death” that would be very helpful.
KarenO

I grow commercially but limit my use of fungicides and pesticides to a minimum amount as much as possible. I have had it happen too. I assume I have over watered something or over heated in spots at times. I grow in a greenhouse on a bench and use large heat mats.... I use sterile mix and new inserts for this project. I can't afford to replace their seeds. I am growing for an orchard/farm stand type place this year. everything has been great until I started tomatoes. TOMATOES! of all things. I had two varieties that hardly germinated and two that were pelleted seeds that germinated just fine then practically keeled over. ARRG! I ordered new marriage heirloom and chef choice ones to replace what didn't germinate. I don't know if it was me or the seeds.

I worry about this alot.

It is one reason that I limit my seed trading.

[QUOTE=KarenO;732197]I wonder if seed borne disease factors in.
Everyone and their pup has a little website and is selling seeds these days including from some highly seed borne disease prone areas in the American south for example with no germination testing, no quality control or even the barest hint of such niceties as a phytosanitary certificate. The flashy websites give people false confidence that they are dealing with professional seedhouses but often that is not the case, it’s an unregulated, unlicensed, Uninspected under the kitchen table enterprise charging top dollar for what is possibly dubious quality seeds.
Clearly there are excellent smaller experienced seed sellers who have sold quality seeds for years but there are many newer ones in the last couple of years as well and more all the time.
Combine this with a lot of trading with sometimes unknown or inexperienced sources who may also be saving seed from diseased plants ..
I don’t know this is a factor in the circumstances you are speaking of directly but numerous viral and bacterial diseased can be seed borne.
Reusing old pots support sticks etc without cleaning can also be a source of fungus and pathogens.
Healthy plants don’t just die. I see planting medium blamed a lot, especially one certain brand but perhaps it’s something else.if the opportunity exists for a professional diagnosis of the “ cause of death” that would be very helpful.
KarenO[/QUOTE]

Well, I have come to the conclusion that I had a bad bag of MG Seed Starting Mix. The only thing different now is that I have my seedlings in Jiffy Mix and they don't smell like sewage. I don't know of another logical possibility. I haven't done anything different in how I'm doing things. Where I got no germination or dying seedlings, I now have extraordinary germination and no dying seedlings.

My processes have always been to use enough water to get the mix nicely damp. Then I drain anything left in the tray and let it sit overnight to stabilize. Then seeds are sewn the next day and the top medium is kept damp by a spray bottle that will mist the top 1/16 inch of the contents maybe twice a day as needed. This keeps the top layer from making the little seedlings have to push so hard to get to the lights.

Yes, I've used a heat mat for the last 4 years. This is the only problem I've had with plants dying. Yes, I've killed a few each year, but those have died from "mechanical" missteps by me. I'm hanging this one firmly on bad mix products. I see that MG has a new "Organic Golden" series of products. Maybe that has taken their attention away from maintaining quality in its lesser priced products. I haven't seen prices on those new ones, but I can guess.

I think I'll stick with Jiffy plugs. They come to me without any moisture in them and that puts me in control. If I have a problem now, I know that it's my fault. I will not purchase or use any more MG products that have mix or soil in the bag. I like their fertilizer for tomatoes, but the rest of their stuff is no longer on my shopping list.

"Quoth the Muddy Bucket garden bird, [COLOR=purple]NEVERMORE[/COLOR] !!!"

I will not trust them again.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;732206]I worry about this alot.

It is one reason that I limit my seed trading.[/QUOTE]

Me too but with trades, you “ takes your chances” I suppose.
I have far higher expectations when I buy seeds.
think one can hedge their bets somewhat by buying from experienced and ethical seed vendors, and avoiding seeds from plants grown in high risk (humid hot disease prone ) areas. Winter is a good thing when it comes to diseases, most of these high risk pathogens are unusual in shorter season areas but I don’t want to import anything into my garden that’s for sure.
Karen

As good a place as any for this comment.
I work around construction sites.
I get mud and soil all over my truck
The rain washes it off at my house.
What am I bringing home in that soil?:?!?:

So many folks are having problems with commercial potting soils - there seem to be lots of herbicides and other crap coming through that affects sensitive seedlings.

If the plants were growing healthy until some point, it's pretty much excluded that the fault lies with the potting soil.


Some disease, quite possible. Also possible: something was added. Like too much sudden fertilizer, etc, it's a more common problem than one thinks, especially with 'competition' increasing, like seeing great results of people online, one wants to have better and better results.

It could take a few weeks before a seedlings root system is actively searching soil
for nutrients.
Sowing a dry seed coat, waking the embryo, emergence....barely the beginning of a
root and all food needed is contained in its own little seed cell. A couple weeks,
sometimes three before much interaction with surrounding soil. The soil is just providing the
needed moisture for germination. Why we mist the top for the few days after
sowing.
At the same time the nasty soil is getting nice and oxygenated and steady damp. yum.

I think all opinions and concerns are valid. Especially from educated seasoned growers.
We trust our years of experience and make mistakes. I know exactly where I have screwed
up. 2017 bad seed starting soil. Did not stink but old soggy stock. A few weeks post sowing it
turned to cement.

I don't purchase willy-nilly seed. I know where every seed came from. Trade is minimal.

An entire tray planted densely, 20-30 varieties, goes down suddenly, it is soil or water quality or
a wash/rinse of a gnat/aphid drench.(?). Did I bottom water too long? Wet feet? Is it air quality now
that the weather has changed and the windows are open? (no wet feet as I let my trays dry out)
Maybe I used a Fert by mistake for my winter grow plants, diluted, but too strong and not necessary for
seedlings. I always first blame myself.

Will I start seeing leaf mold soon like last year? Be pro-active and start a preventative program?
Too soon I may injure the young...
Now that the snow cover is gone and outdoor soil is wet, temps climbing....

I also think a bit about infected seed but would one variety affect the entire tray? So soon after
sowing?

I start my tomato and pepper seeds on a heated seed mat. I was under the impression that they do not need light until they break through the surface and begin to sprout
. I use a plastic 72-cell seed-starting tray. This is my dilemma: Seeds germinate at a different rate. At what point do I put them under the lights? Will I do damage to the seeds that have not broken the surface yet if I put them under the lights so that the seeds that have popped can benefit from light and to avoid legginess in those that have popped?

Amazing! After more than twenty years of successful seed starting this is the first year with about one third of my seedlings either not germinating or croaking. My system has been identical for so long I thought there would be no problem. I always do extras so there will be plenty to grow but several varieties I wanted did not survive.

I thought it was the old seed and it was just not viable, but some seeds were more than ten years old and did fine while some two year old seed did not come up. Crazy, this is.

I better re-evaluate the growing medium I use to see if this is a cause. Change one thing at a time to eliminate the variables. This keeps thing interesting.

I started all tomato seeds and I swear some of the plants are weeds and not tomato.
They look nothing like a tomato plant.
The sad part is I used different soil mixes so I don't know which to blame.
I curse them again.

what kind of weeds you get?

[QUOTE=hovermother22;732325]I start my tomato and pepper seeds on a heated seed mat. I was under the impression that they do not need light until they break through the surface and begin to sprout
. I use a plastic 72-cell seed-starting tray. This is my dilemma: Seeds germinate at a different rate. At what point do I put them under the lights? Will I do damage to the seeds that have not broken the surface yet if I put them under the lights so that the seeds that have popped can benefit from light and to avoid legginess in those that have popped?[/QUOTE]

I put my trays under lights when about 1/3rd are up. Just check twice a day and keep the empty cells damp
with a small spritzer bottle. If an entire row is lagging behind I lay a strip of plastic cut from a gallon zip-lock
to keep it moist. If the seed is viable they will eventually show up. Avoid watering the entire tray. Just
wet cells with the slow-pokes. If an emerging seed still not visible dries out, it may not make it.

I have three cells right now, same variety, that is a no show at nearly two weeks now.

[QUOTE=slugworth;732331]I started all tomato seeds and I swear some of the plants are weeds and not tomato.
They look nothing like a tomato plant.
The sad part is I used different soil mixes so I don't know which to blame.
I curse them again.[/QUOTE]

What varieties? Some cherries do look like weeds.

One thing that might help in the future...germinate test your soil early.

Around last Thanksgiving I took advantage of free shipping and ordered 2 10lb bags of coir cubes.
(not mesh pots). Stocked up. Compressed cubes. I grow salad year round with stellar success finally.
I just need 4-5 expanding cubes per tray. Easy and convenient to just soak what I need. 4-10 trays
per week in succession.

Around the x-mas holidays I did a germination test tray of tomatoes. Also a heat treatment SousVide.
One row of micros to grow out and dwarfs, and a row of Terenzo hybrid.
Multi-tasking testing to also see if the coir is also good for tomato starting.

They all did really well. So, this healthy 1010 tray of starts I did keep growing after culling to one per cell.
Potted up nine dwarfs and nine micros, a couple Terenzo for early tomatoes.

No need to start that early, but an early, 3-4 week early, can give a good assessment of your soil you
plan to use. Before spending time and seed with a new bag.
(I just potted up a couple dozen using a new bag of proMix. So freaked about soil I'm testing it before I
continue.)

[QUOTE=slugworth;732331]I started all tomato seeds and I swear some of the plants are weeds and not tomato.
They look nothing like a tomato plant.
The sad part is I used different soil mixes so I don't know which to blame.
I curse them again.[/QUOTE]

I too have had weed seeds growing in the potting mix. I don't remember the brand either :(.

Linda

And then you can do something idiotic like adding too much salt to the water softener and then wondering why the seedlings look sick! That was me last year. Fortunately, I managed to save most of them. I have learned my lesson and this year, I'm only using water that has bypassed the softener.

Linda

[QUOTE=Labradors2;732353]And then you can do something idiotic like adding too much salt to the water softener and then wondering why the seedlings look sick! That was me last year. Fortunately, I managed to save most of them. I have learned my lesson and this year, I'm only using water that has bypassed the softener.

Linda[/QUOTE]

can I ask what kind of softener do you have that you can add too much salt? none of the ones I have ever seen used more than a preset amount of salt per cycle. leaving some salt in the water is normal but not enough to kill off the seedlings.

Some of those same plants I just brought upstairs to get some sunny weather. They need potting
up tomorrow. Might have some nice early tomatoes as the weather is about to hit 75 tomorrow.
Spend some time outside in the shade. (dwarfs are tough plants!) They seem to just sit and wait
without complaint.
dMetalica, dArtsy variegated and some Angora micros I call PicoloGato (akaLittleKitty)

[QUOTE=clkeiper;732355]can I ask what kind of softener do you have that you can add too much salt? none of the ones I have ever seen used more than a preset amount of salt per cycle. leaving some salt in the water is normal but not enough to kill off the seedlings.[/QUOTE]

My softener is pre-set but I bypass it for plants and yard/garden work. The original homeowners had it in
their house notes to do so. So I do it.

Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it.

I had some loses in my peppers last night. I'm going to blame it on this thread. It's like an evil chain letter. If you've read this far it may already be too late for you. But there may be hope for you. If you send Grenada or. Zavrony......

Nah, too late to replant anyway.

Here is a tray with late germination. Surprised to see these this morning. 16 days from
sowing. I always sow 3-5 per cell and just getting some now. Not great gemination rate
from this variety, Kelso from BunnyHop. Rest of the tray is up. three cells of Kelso, one is
still empty. This tray has been under light for a week now. I have kept those empty cells
misted.

I have a few varieties that are still coming up. But my problem was that some of my crosses and my seasoning pepper fell over as a group. They looked totally limp, like pepperomia does it it goes a few days without water. But they aren't dry so I don't think they're going to snap back with a misting.

[QUOTE=hovermother22;732325]I start my tomato and pepper seeds on a heated seed mat. I was under the impression that they do not need light until they break through the surface and begin to sprout
. I use a plastic 72-cell seed-starting tray. This is my dilemma: Seeds germinate at a different rate. At what point do I put them under the lights? Will I do damage to the seeds that have not broken the surface yet if I put them under the lights so that the seeds that have popped can benefit from light and to avoid legginess in those that have popped?[/QUOTE]

I put mine under lights the minute I see the"elbow" of the seedling breaking the soil. Tomato seeds don't need light, but don't mind light either. I have a gentle fan on them at that moment also. Fan stays on 24/7. Light is on during waking hours, off at bedtime.
Leggy seedlings are weak seedlings, and they will get leggy stretching for light.

My lowly advice is to plant seeds, put the trays under the lights and start the cycle at that time.
What have you possibly got to lose?