Fun with tomatoes
 

I'm looking for fun for long autumn and winter evenings. Now my garden bloom early varieties indeterminant and determinant. I would like to do some crossing of indeterminate varieties with potato leaf with determinante varieties (Sophie's choice, Sarayev Shtambovyi or Mongolsky karlik). The sowing of this cross would be done at the beginning of October. If the pollination was successful, I would pick those with a potato leaf and try to find out if any seedlings have a growth pattern of determinant tomatoes. The place, the time, and the conditions I will certainly have.
Do I know after sowing if the crossing was successful? Should the plants be with potato leaf and also with normal?
Vladimír

Hi Vladimir,

Great project!

Your F1 cross between PL variety and determinate RL will not have PL or determinate showing in the F1 generation, because both traits are recessive.
In the F2, Mendelian ratios would give you one in four PL, and one in four sp/sp determinate, and one in sixteen both PL and sp/sp. In reality the chance (probability) is a little different than Mendel's ratios, so I usually try to grow six plants to find the 1/4 recessive trait. But I have also been lucky, and found 2 recessives together with only 12 plants. And sometimes I didn't find the 1/4 recessive even with six plants - but I think this might be due to linkages in that case, as much as luck.

The nice thing about growing an F1 in the winter, is that you only need one plant and one fruit (or more) to get your F2 seeds for the next season.
It is more challenging to grow an F2 indoors because you need more plants.

Also, in crosses between a determinate and indeterminate, you end up with a variety of growth habits where sp/sp "determinate" trait is reckoned as the forming of a terminal cluster and fewer than three leaves between terminating clusters. So you will have a variety of "semi-determinate" types in there as well, some of which can be quite tall instead of terminating quickly as a stable determinate does.
This would depend entirely on the parents you choose as well. I know Sophie's Choice for example is a very compact determinate where some others are taller. Likewise in your PL parent you may have a choice between taller or more compact plants, and that will affect the amount of variation in your "determinate/semi-determinate" growth habits emerging in F2, F3 etc.

The semi-determinate can be difficult or impossible to identify while the plants are still young and small. But maybe you could screen them out and only select F2 plants that are compact and terminate the main stem very soon. You would need to grow more seedlings to do that, depending on how your two parents interact on growth habit, it may be quite feasible.

Hi Vladimir,


Use the potato leaf as the mother. Take pollen from the regular leaf. If the cross is successful, the seedlings will be regular leaf in the first generation. Keep the regular leaf seedlings and throw away the potato leaf in the first generation.

In the second generation, choose potato leaf and determinate.

Nan

And what happens when the mother will be normal leaf?
Vladimír

The F1 will be normal leaf if mother or father is normal leaf, regardless.

Sometimes people choose to make the mother the PL when doing their first cross. That is only because, if the cross was not done properly and the mother plant self pollinated, you will know you made a mistake because the self pollinated plants from those seeds will be PL instead of RL.

Self pollination is not an issue if you emasculate the flowers at the right stage, when flowers are just opening and petals are still pale yellow not fully colored. It may take several days for the pistil to mature then and be ready to receive pollen. The tip becomes enlarged and sticky, and you can see that pollen is sticking to it by the bare line left after you drag it through pollen in your collector.

More common issues for failure of a cross which I have seen, the fragility of the pistil on some varieties. Some types simply make better mothers than others, maybe they are more tolerant of the "surgery" involved in making the cross. So it is worthwhile to try both plants as mothers, do several crosses on both, and some will likely take.

There will be no way to tell if you are successful if the mother is regular leaf. When a potato leaf mother gives regular leaf babies, that is success. When a regular leaf mother gives regular leaf babies, who knows? Maybe she self-pollinated.


Nan

One more question. How will the cross mother look indereminante potato leaf, father determinant normal leaf. Is there a chance that there will be a determinant plant in the first generation?
Vladimír

Hi Vladimir,
The chance of a determinate plant in the F1 generation is = zero. Indeterminate growth habit is completely dominant to the determinate.

Bower and Nan thank you for the information. I imagined it more simply. I wanted fun for fall and winter, but it would be a lot more work for the spring and summer. And I can not feel it anymore. And the result? Eight years for me too long. On Monday I leave for a holiday in Pilsen. There I will have plenty of time to think about what tomatoes to grow, so it was also fun for me. ;)
Vladimír

Vladimir, if you have lights inside, you can have fun with any small tomato plants.

1. You make the cross.

2. When those tomatoes are ripe, plant the F1 seeds. You only need one good one. (Easy to grow this inside)

3. When those are ripe, plant the F2 seeds. You should plant many F2 seeds. Do this generation outside so you can grow maybe 10 or more. (More is better.) When the tomatoes are ripe, decide which one(s) you want to keep going.

4. Plant the F3 seeds. You don't need as many. (Maybe 8?) Choose the best one(s) to keep going. Repeat until you get to F8. But by the time you get F6, you will have almost a finished product.

You can get 2 or almost 3 generations a year if you grow inside with a light in winter. You can get about 8 plants in 1 gallon trade pots (about 3 liters of soil) under one light, then put aluminum foil around it so all the light is reflected back to the plant. This is the light I use:
[URL]https://www.amazon.com/Feit-Electric-Utility-Shop-Light/dp/B01MUWR6DT?SubscriptionId=AKIAJSNNUHPJD2BBMSFA&tag=shoplights-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01MUWR6DT[/URL]


Nan

Lots of great information thanks for asking Mr Big46, there were somethings I hadn't thought about. Or maybe forgot.;) I am going to try some breeding. I have had abysmal luck the last few years. Tomatoes not developing, catastrophic rains, and rains causing diseases ect. Just going to try breeding to see if I can do it successfully this year, just to prove concept.

Nan and Bower,
I do not want to shine and I can not. Tomato seedlings may only be grown in the bedroom and I must be glad (wife).
ad 2) I really need only one F1 plant? I know all of them will be indeterminate and normal. Is it really arbitrary which I choose?
Vladimír

You are right, Vladimir; your wife must be more important than your tomatoes.

Every F1 is the same. But if one looks healthier, bigger, etc., choose that one.

Nan

Yes, to get seed from the F1 you only need one plant - if both parents are stable OP, every F1 will be identical genetically, so there's no need for extra F1 plants unless you are testing out the F1 itself.

The usual advice is to collect several hundred F2 seeds. But that may also depend on your plans and needs. I often end up with hundreds of seeds that will never be grown out - I don't have the capability to grow hundreds of plants per generation, and in addition, if I can find what I'm looking for with ten plants, well the rest of the seeds will be waiting a long time for their chance to be grown here. :lol: It's nice to have some seeds as backup, in case I needed to start over for some reason, but in most cases the seeds from one fruit of the F1 would be more than enough.

Yesterday I sowed the seeds of four varieties pořebných for breeding. Mother- Stupické polní rané. Potential fathers- Sarayev shtanbovyi, Sophie´s choice and Mongolskyi karlik.
Vladimír

I'm glad you decided to do it. You'll have fun & learn a lot. I did.

Nan

Cool... I think you'll find Stupicke an excellent mother. :D

[QUOTE=MrBig46;706633]Yesterday I sowed the seeds of four varieties pořebných for breeding. Mother- Stupické polní rané. Potential fathers- Sarayev shtanbovyi, Sophie´s choice and Mongolskyi karlik.
Vladimír[/QUOTE]

Hi Vladimir,

I am very interested to follow your work, and course, your excellent photos are always appreciated. With this project you'll be able to hold us in suspence until you get some determinates with your F2s. Three crosses will keep you & your garden very busy. :)

rg

I'm sorry I did not start earlier. By the end of September, it's only 90 days. I think I'll put the plants into my hotbed to ripening a little faster. I will do manual pollination at home on plants in containers. Plants pollinated with flowers (small fruits) plantings in the garden then. I'm not sure if I can handle hand pollination. I have to study more, any reference to the instructions welcome.
Vladimír

[QUOTE=MrBig46;706769] I have to study more, any reference to the instructions welcome.
Vladimír[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Riedng9WY[/url]

[QUOTE=RJGlew;706782][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Riedng9WY[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks Robert. I hope that will help me.
Vladimír

I'll be following this interesting project.

Today, I tried to remove the pollen sticks from the flower of tomato Bombeta so that only a pistil to remain. Deploy pollen sticks to the pistil was not so simple. Perhaps I take full opened flower and I will try to transfer the pollen to the pistil.
Vladimír

Vladimir, most people find it easier to collect pollen on a flat surface - the lens from an old pair of sunglasses for example, or a small shallow container - by placing the container under the pollen donor and tap on the flower from behind so that pollen falls down to be collected. It is usually recommended to collect pollen from several flowers, as the state of maturity of the pollen also varies.
You then very gently drag the pistil of the emasculated flower across the pollen covered surface. When the mother is mature and ready to be pollinated, the end of the pistil forms a bit of a knob that you can see and it is sticky then, so that after you drag it through the pollen there's a bare line where pollen was taken up.

I love the history of growing tomatoes in our country and this history is associated with the name Jaroslav Homola author of Stupices. His article in Garden Magazine inspired me to grow tomatoes in the hotbed. He bred variety directly intended for cultivation in hotbeds.
He crossed the Mikado x Sláva Porýní x Bellevue Bush x Solanum racemigerum that is almost like the Stupice x Bellevue Bush. Of many different plants, he chose the one that had the first blooms behind the sixth leaf, then the leaves and other flowers. On the 3rd to 4th leaf the main stem ended growth. During the youth, 3-4 shoots were formed under the first inflorescence (later with the flowers).
I thought it might be the tomato Urbikany (Vrbičanské nízké), but none of the plants I cultivated from seeds from different sources didn´t look like that. I do not know if the tomato for the hotbed was ever recognized as a new variety and as it was called.
That's why I decided to cross the Stupice with some determinant tomatoes. Maybe it will appear some tomato with flowers behind the sixth or seventh leaves
Vladimír
PS.: I add a copy of this article (if any of you know Czech)

Always four seedlings in one pot. In a week, I divide them, each seedling into one pot. I do not have much time but I hope some mature tomatoes F1 will have this year.
Vladimír
PS.: Stupice (Sempra), Sophie´s choice, Mongolskyi karlik and Sarayev Shtambovyi

All plants outside the Mongolian karlik already have deployed flowers. Next week I will pollinate. I do not know if one day I can remove the anthers from the flower of the mother and the second or the next day to pollinate. I do not know how flowers of different varieties will develop.
Vladimír

Yes, you can remove anthers one day and pollinate on another day, if you wish.

Thanks.
Vladimír

Before the holidays, I tried to remove the pollen sticks from the Stupické polní rané. Not once failed it ( ten to fifteen experiments). I regret it. I'll try again in the winter.
Vladimír