Saving Tomato Seeds Questions
 

8 days ago I started saving Juliet tomato seeds. The are from Juliet F1 tomatoes. I'm just curious to see F2s.

I saved a lot of seeds last year of other tomatoes and peppers. I did the exact same things this year as well. I placed a coffee filter on the top of the jar and set them out in a semi-shaded area. What is odd is there is no floating muck on top of this batch of seeds. The water is discolored and has no floating seeds.

Does the fact that there is no floating muck mean anything?

Also, do I have to let them dry before planting some of them in seed cells?

Salty, I personally feel that too much emphasis is placed on that fungal mat. As long as the seeds have sunk to the bottom and the gel sacs have all dissolved away, there is no more that can be done. The sole purpose of the process is to separate the seeds from the gel sacs. It is beneficial if the complete fermentation process is accomplished, as this will kill off many of the seed borne pathogens.

And, you can plant those seeds wet whenever you feel the urge. Drying is only useful for storing seeds over time. So, you can take some seeds right out of the freshly cut tomato and plant them immediately. Even if the gel sac is still attached, it will only delay germination a few hours while the gel dissolves.

Thank You Ted









Very useful site Cole. I do plan on saving a lot of seeds.

I like using Oxy Clean to avoid being uncertain about my fermenting skills:
[url]http://settfest.feldoncentral.com/2009/01/saving-seeds/[/url]

[QUOTE=AlittleSalt;478232]8 days ago I started saving Juliet tomato seeds. The are from Juliet F1 tomatoes. I'm just curious to see F2s.

I saved a lot of seeds last year of other tomatoes and peppers. I did the exact same things this year as well. I placed a coffee filter on the top of the jar and set them out in a semi-shaded area. What is odd is there is no floating muck on top of this batch of seeds. The water is discolored and has no floating seeds.

Does the fact that there is no floating muck mean anything?

Also, do I have to let them dry before planting some of them in seed cells?[/QUOTE]

And I always use fermentation since data is available as to which pathogens might be destroyed if they are in the gunk, since several folks have looked into the oxidative methods and not found any such data that Dr, Helene Dillard did with fermentation.

But even with frmentation sometimes i see no fungal mat on top of the gunk, just thin watery reddish colored, no floating seeds and IMO such events happen depending on the pH of the initial gunk since there are those varieties that do have a lower acicid pH than others.

I like having that fungal mat since enzymes are made that help take the gel capsules off the seeds.

And as Ted said, you don't have to dry the seeds before sowing them. I was sent whole fruits for what became the variety Sara's Galapagos, took out some seeds and did not process tham at all and got 100% germination.

In my area of upstate NY there are few soilborne diseases, most prominent are the common foliage diseases, but if I lived in another area where soilborne diseases are usually found I would select fermentation over an oxidative method, just playing it safe.

Carolyn

Does anyone know about the hot water treatment method?
 

has anybody heard of the hot water/boiling water bath method ...treats

for seed disease on outside of seed and inside ????

only problem is timing ? the exposure to the hot water has to be not to long (or cooked seeds) and not to short (treatment ineffective ???)

will look this up a bit more. The exposure is timed ..so one has to be alert.

I always wondered about the different size seeds of different varieties in the guestimate factor of treatment timing for this method.

[QUOTE=BlackBear;478584]has anybody heard of the hot water/boiling water bath method ...treats

for seed disease on outside of seed and inside ????

only problem is timing ? the exposure to the hot water has to be not to long (or cooked seeds) and not to short (treatment ineffective ???)

will look this up a bit more. The exposure is timed ..so one has to be alert.

I always wondered about the different size seeds of different varieties in the guestimate factor of treatment timing for this method.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do know about it and it's one of those items that when referred to it says....don't trythis at home.:lol: And it's so very true since it's almost impossible to maintain a specific temp for the length of time needed when doing it at home. And there is always a loss of seed viability when it is done.

In seed catalogs you'll see that seeds for some varieties are offered with or without hot water treatment and the only reason they do that is for bacterial pathogens which are found in the interior of seeds.The hot water treated seed is primarily done for large scale commercial farmers who do have problems with some bacterial pathogens.

Carolyn

I treated some seeds in the back of the box van at work.

One of the guys was about to throw out a cup of gunk and asked what it was.
I told him it was his Black Prince seeds.:lol:

What a trip those seeds made.
From Texas to the far north of Alaska then to Seattle and on to Colorado.
Worth

Blackbear,
There's a gardening blog I enjoy; the site is [URL="http://www.senior-gardening.com"]www.senior-gardening.com[/URL] .

If you go to the site, look under "features", an article titled "saving tomato seed"
will have info on Hot Water Treatment for Seed" with some links. There is a
search feature on the blog also.

Also, if you look under the heading "Senior Garden Blog", you'll find a
monthly index for the last 8 years. It's described in the October 2011
blog with several links given.

You might find more references in his blog-I did just a quick search having
remembered I saw the write up there. I believe the reason he chooses to do
this is that he offers an heirloom "Moira" through SSE and is concerned about
anthracnose.

Having been a lab tech for a large chemical company, I had a setup under a hood to do similar. If you had a temp. controller (Variac) and hot plate, it may be easy to do if you felt you had the need to do it. I'd have to say, just reading about this caused me to feel a bit leery about trading seed, though. :) Darlene

[QUOTE=BlackBear;478584]has anybody heard of the hot water/boiling water bath method ...treats

for seed disease on outside of seed and inside ????

only problem is timing ? the exposure to the hot water has to be not to long (or cooked seeds) and not to short (treatment ineffective ???)

will look this up a bit more. The exposure is timed ..so one has to be alert.

I always wondered about the different size seeds of different varieties in the guestimate factor of treatment timing for this method.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I would be very afraid of this. I just do old fashioned fermentation, then drying on an absorbent paper plate or coffee filter. I get pretty good germination rates, at least that's what Tvillers mostly tell me when they get my seeds.;)
I would feel bad giving out bad seeds.

Hot water treatment
 

hmmmmmmm Hot Water it seems like less gunk and even quicker than 3 days of the standard fermentation process........

The fermentation process is the standard no mater ..what other methods on uses.

Hot water treatment ..is ..much safer than the "old country " grandma process of just making a tomato smear from a part of ripe fruit and spreading the contents very ...thin on a paper napkin ,,,,,,,,, and wick excess water away with under the holding napkin with an extra napkin ....then just hang the smeared napkin up to facilitate efficient drying out ...a couple days....then refolding napkin for storage
and marking . easy to carry with you if one has to move to a new country etc.
Simplicity saves seeds. also..thanks to all who carried the seeds to other parts of the world.

I think the oxyclean method looks like a good one also ...but part of me is just trying to take as much extra chemicals out of the process as possible (it might Not be possible ).

Sooooo if I understand when one does the Heat method it can be more effective for bacteria treatment on the "inside "of the seeds....but it can often cause loss of a percent of the seeds being treated .... making the seeds unacceptable and unpredictable for seed trading as the germination % can fluctuate .

But if one wanted to make sure one had a good treatment (even recovery) of a
rare special seed that had the pathogen on the inside ...would this not be the way??

If one did this method and had many seeds abundance (over seed) would not a loss of even 40% resulting in "Treated seed" inside and out be worth it ?
it is Like giving the survivor seeds/line a fresh pathogen free start.


I guess radiation treatment is not a good idea either the neighbours kind of get nervous. :surprised:

Hot water treatment is tricky. I would also not suggest it unless you have a PID controller and the ability to set up a proper hot water bath.
[url]http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/HotWaterSeedTreatment.html[/url]

That being said it is useful to have in your bag of tricks if you think a seed source is questionable.

yes agreed much awareness of one's options......

I am interested and might want to practice a bit of hot water treatment to say ..I can do it if needed...

but not really risk a full line of seeds etc.

As for now we are back to the fermentation .....ha ha ha

James, Thanks for posting that link. I was surprised at the number of possible
seed borne diseases for tomatoes.

I've looked at this issue and have come to the following conclusion. I really don't have a need for this kind of "perfection". If I think the seeds I have are too infested with these internal seed pathogens, then I'll simply get some seed from a source that doesn't have the problem.

I can't afford and don't have the inclination to perform this kind of heat treatment with its precise temperature controls and all kind of other fusses. It isn't worth my time. Let the so-called professionals do this. I'll put my time to harvesting what mother nature allows me to have. I'll plant extras so that mother nature can have her share.

Fermentation should be adequate for all my needs. I also do a process where I use Comet or whatever other scouring powder I have at the moment to scrub away the gel sacs. I also do a Clorox rinse on seeds coming out of the fermentation process. But, I don't do any of these things all of the time.

It's nice to know this "heat" process in case we need to "save" a variety from extinction. But it is not for me for my everyday use. This is just my lazy "70 years young" opinion. But, I know and respect that you may choose a different view.

[QUOTE=ContainerTed;478698]I've looked at this issue and have come to the following conclusion. I really don't have a need for this kind of "perfection". If I think the seeds I have are too infested with these internal seed pathogens, then I'll simply get some seed from a source that doesn't have the problem.

I can't afford and don't have the inclination to perform this kind of heat treatment with its precise temperature controls and all kind of other fusses. It isn't worth my time. Let the so-called professionals do this. I'll put my time to harvesting what mother nature allows me to have. I'll plant extras so that mother nature can have her share.

Fermentation should be adequate for all my needs. I also do a process where I use Comet or whatever other scouring powder I have at the moment to scrub away the gel sacs. I also do a Clorox rinse on seeds coming out of the fermentation process. But, I don't do any of these things all of the time.

It's nice to know this "heat" process in case we need to "save" a variety from extinction. But it is not for me for my everyday use. This is just my lazy "70 years young" opinion. But, I know and respect that you may choose a different view.[/QUOTE]

Agree with you completely Ted!

I agree with you, too, Ted. I think the value of the discussion, especially
to new gardeners/seed savers, is that some pathogens could be passed on
with the seed. It pays to know what diseases your plants/fruits may have
and hopefully, not pass them on to others. I guess I feel lucky I've never
gotten bacterial speck or similar diseases through traded or purchased seed.

[QUOTE=greyghost;478695]James, Thanks for posting that link. I was surprised at the number of possible
seed borne diseases for tomatoes.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It surprised me too the first time I read it.

[QUOTE=JamesL;478777]Agreed. It surprised me too the first time I read it.[/QUOTE]

If you look closely at that list you'll see that some of the pathogens listed are said to be seedborne but are only found on the exterior of the seed, mainly the fungal ones, but bacterial, viral and viroid ones are on the interior only.

I think I referred to Dr. Helene Dillard above and what she showed was that fermentation was effective in removing almost all of the fungal ones from the seed exterior, and that infection is quantititative so that lessens the chances that actual infection will occur.

And as I also noted, studies such as hers have not been done with oxidative methods. Several folks have tried, and failed to find the efficacy of oxidative methods for tomatoes and Imention that b'c there is data for other kinds of seeds. But then Dr, Dillard had large grants, from either Heinz or Campbells. to fund her research.:)

Carolyn

[QUOTE=carolyn137;478789]If you look closely at that list you'll see that some of the pathogens listed are said to be seedborne but are only found on the exterior of the seed, mainly the fungal ones, but bacterial, viral and viroid ones are on the interior only.

I think I referred to Dr. Helene Dillard above and what she showed was that fermentation was effective in removing almost all of the fungal ones from the seed exterior, and that infection is quantititative so that lessens the chances that actual infection will occur.

And as I also noted, studies such as hers have not been done with oxidative methods. Several folks have tried, and failed to find the efficacy of oxidative methods for tomatoes and Imention that b'c there is data for other kinds of seeds. But then Dr, Dillard had large grants, from either Heinz or Campbells. to fund her research.:)

Carolyn[/QUOTE]
ahhh yes ! light bulb going off !

It is the total inside and outside pathogens ...Plus other environmental grow conditions/stresses...... ( plus variety selected genetic disease resistance )

that will decide the chance of the disease to express itself in the cultivare.



Normally the fermentation or oxidation method for outside fungal treatment is enough

in normal healthy cultivation environment for plants to grow and reach maturity and produce fruit.

It is the tried and true standard way. the Gold Standard.


..I am just wondering if there is any justification in saying if you also had heat treated seeds that were devoid of the inside bacterial / viral pathogens as well.........(most of these pathogens which we would never be aware of ...and still have good production ! ) would one not increase the chances of a healthier plant and get a potentially a better production ???

I don't know if it is worth it for everybody ...but I think there are a lot of " Tomatovillians "

who would like to get all the best factors lined up to increase the outcome ...chances.

If a plant does not have to spend resources to fight/defend against disease with a disease response ( even invisible to the normal eye )...will it actually grow / produce better ?


oh geese I can't believe I said that ............

These links might be useful. I was just looking this topic up because I'm having an issue with a vascular wilt and wasn't sure if I should save seed from those plants.

Instructions for bleach or hot water:

[URL="http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/HotWaterSeedTreatment.html"]vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/HotWaterSeedTreatment.html[/URL]

[URL="http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3085.html"]ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3085.html[/URL]

[URL="http://www.highmowingseeds.com/SB-Seedborne-Disease-and-Its-Control.html"]www.highmowingseeds.com/SB-Seedborne-Disease-and-Its-Control.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=JamesL;478673]Hot water treatment is tricky. I would also not suggest it unless you have a PID controller and the ability to set up a proper hot water bath.
[url]http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/HotWaterSeedTreatment.html[/url]

That being said it is useful to have in your bag of tricks if you think a seed source is questionable.[/QUOTE]
The link is good ...and the awareness of seed bourne pathogen internal that heat treatment fixes is interesting ...........does anybody know of some dreaded pathogen that for some reason will not be fixed with the standard heat treatment of 50C/ 122F @25 minutes ???

[QUOTE=BlackBear;486412]The link is good ...and the awareness of seed bourne pathogen internal that heat treatment fixes is interesting ...........does anybody know of some dreaded pathogen that for some reason will not be fixed with the standard heat treatment of 50C/ 122F @25 minutes ???[/QUOTE]

Interesting subject. A scientific answer would require a survey of the literature
to answer that question for each individual pathogen to characterize its
individual behavior and a variety of circumstances, for example a spore might
withstand a much greater temperature than the corresponding organism:

Most sources quote that heat treatment is especially useful for bacterial
diseases present in the seed endosperm. It is also used to control viral and
fungal disease, but typically in industry seeds are treated with fungicides and
other biocidal chemicals, even in addition to different heat treatments.

Since we are dealing with living organisms, I think looking for a yes/no answer
is an oversimplification. My impression is that heat treatment reduces all these
pathogens to minimal levels if it doesn't eliminate them, but there are no
guarantees in nature. Some pathogens are more stubborn than others, and
each seed presents a different microscopical situation. I would liken it to
chemotherapy in which you get a great success rate and appear cancer-free,
but somewhere, there could be lurking something that for some random
reason persisted. Life, (including viruses) is tenacious.*

Perhaps a virus could have a greater chance of persisting.

I heat treat all of my seeds by the standard 25 min @ 122 F, and have
never had a wholesale problem of seed mortality. It is true that older
seed seems to have lower germination rates after applying a heat treatment,
but to say anything more, a controlled experiment under the specific
conditions is the way to go. After all, it is older seed, and I don't know the
conditions it was stored under. If only 6/10 germinate instead of 9/10, how
would I know why since I don't run a replicated, controlled statistically
meaningful experiment comparing heat treated to non-heat treated of
uniformly produced and stored control seeds. The literature claims that seed
over 2 years old really can suffer greater mortality. I take the researchers'
word for it so far :) as sounding plausible. If someone stuck me in a bath of
122 F for 25 minutes, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even live 5 minutes. But I
would be sure to binge on unsaturated fatty acids if I had advanced notice,
and do whatever I could to increase my odds of survival. Who knows, life
usually finds a way to surprise!

* "Life is tenacious." Apparently I'm getting old, since "tenacious" is not the
word I want here. There is a quote that is more of a one line zinger with a
synonym to tenacious that I was looking for, but my memory is on holiday :-(

so after heat treatment of 122f/50 C @25 minutes .........

one may possibly loose some seeds and possibly not all pathogens would be eradicated from inside the seed....but the resulting viable seeds from the process have a better start and chance in regards to disease ........as the fermentation and oxiclean methods would not remove the pathogens bourne inside the seed itself.

[QUOTE=BlackBear;486690]so after heat treatment of 122f/50 C @25 minutes .........

one may possibly loose some seeds and possibly not all pathogens would be eradicated from inside the seed....but the resulting viable seeds from the process have a better start and chance in regards to disease ........as the fermentation and oxiclean methods would not remove the pathogens bourne inside the seed itself.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the temperature was probably determined by trial and error more than
anything else, just giving seeds thermal treatments to just before a serious
viability issue developed.

It may be overwhelmingly effective for most problems. But take for example,
Tomato Mosaic Virus. For that one the recommended treatment is for a longer
period of time @ 158 F under dry conditions. Different thermal situation.

Heat treatments done properly I've heard is not supposed to have a negative
effect on the growth of the plant. I'm sure there are studies on this, but I
never read any. In our situation, though, when we swap seeds or deal with
small outfits, frequently old seed shows up. I suspect there is a negative
effect on the eventual plant or yield, but again, these are impressions and
really would need to be proven by experiment. Plus as long as the variety
produces we then start over with our fresh home-grown seeds next time,
so I consider it the cost of getting a new free variety.:)

A run of the mill lab water bath can handle the 50 C in its sleep, alas, I think it's a bit silly to acquire one just for this purpose.

The pyrex + hot kettle appears straightforward and relatively easy to set up in any kitchen. Thanks for the link to the senior gardening hot water treatment.

Just some observations about this thread.

First, Black Bear, you are in BC, Canada, and your main problem there are the foliage diseases, just ask others from BC, and Tania, who is in BC as well, who has that superb data base website has the same foliage disease problems as well.

From the first post I did here I've continued to follow the thread and I am truly surprised that several of you are still suggesting hot water bath treatments, but not surprised with those who say to forget it, with which I agree.

It all depends on where you live and what the most prevalent tomato diseases are, and whether you are a hobby gardener or a commercial large scale gardener. Just look in any of the catalogs where for a single variety seed is offered with and without hot water treatment and for what price. Almost all commercial growers that I know will request the hot water treatment specifically for its ability, when done properly, to inactivate most of the bacterial pathogens in the endosperm of the seed,

And I say most, since new pathogens are being discovered all the time.

Those in the south and along the Gulf coast up into lower CA have other pathogens to think of and the several gemini viruses are a major problem.

[url]https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Gemini+tomato+virus[/url]

The insect vectors for most of those are only found in the south, or were until recently.

Then there's new info on the Potato Spindle VIROID, not virus, which also can infect tomatoes, and here in the US.

[url]https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=potato+spindle+tuber+viroid[/url]

And now a link from the above Google Search

[url]http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/factsheets/Virus_Potato.htm[/url]

My professional life was one of teaching and doing research and I've had more than my share of trying to keep water bath temps where they should be and for how long they should be kept to accomplish the procedure under way. It is not easy and I didn't have any seeds to worry about in terms of losing viability and there's lots of info on the net as to the degree of loss of viability that can occur.

I think it's a complete waste of time for a hobby gardener to try to inactivate something in the endosperm of a tomato seed when not all possible pathogens have even been studied that might end up there as opposed to the known fungal pathogens on the seed surface which are well known and DATA is available to indicate the efficacy of fermentation in lowering that fungal burden but is NOT available for any of the oxidative or bleach methods.

Summary? I think the suggestion to use hot water tratment to inactivate what is not even known to reside in the endosperm except for those viruses already tested and studied, which is not all of them and VIROIDS can't be tested b'c they are not the same as viruses and have to show genetic recombination within the endosperm to form a viable particle, whereas viruses can replicate independently.....is not a good idea.

I could be stronger that that in what I say, but won't. You have to know WHAT it is you want to inactivate to start with and that simply is not known for especially those viruses and viroids that can only be studied in PLANT cell culture, which introduces yet another barrier to making progress in this area.

Carolyn, now asking Freda to take a look at her few tomato plants in containers in the back yard to see if any deer had breakfast there or with all the rain if they need a shot of fertilizer and if they need to be sprayed with a good antifungal b'c of all the rain,:)

Posted elsewhere is a simple method of using a thermos. You need an accurate thermometer too.

Get the water to the temp you want in the thermos and put the seeds in for the desired length of time. I can confirm that over the 25 min it will lose maybe 1 degree.

There are tons of papers that describe surface [I]sterilization[/I] of tomato seeds with bleach.


[QUOTE=Gerardo;486709]A run of the mill lab water bath can handle the 50 C in its sleep, alas, I think it's a bit silly to acquire one just for this purpose.

The pyrex + hot kettle appears straightforward and relatively easy to set up in any kitchen. Thanks for the link to the senior gardening hot water treatment.[/QUOTE]

Carolyn, you have really helped me to understand. Thank you.

I have a related - but totally separate question:

I got cherry tomato seeds from a swap that do not grow well. The germination rate is poor, the plants grow stunted. and produce only a few tomatoes at best. My question is, [B]"If I were to save seeds from those few tomatoes, do those seeds have much of a chance to grow healthy productive plants when planted next growing season?" [/B]

The seeds are not rare or anything (Black Cherry) and I'm thinking that it would be better to toss the seeds I have and just buy some more. But, I am curious about the question above.

[QUOTE=AlittleSalt;486745]Carolyn, you have really helped me to understand. Thank you.

I have a related - but totally separate question:

I got cherry tomato seeds from a swap that do not grow well. The germination rate is poor, the plants grow stunted. and produce only a few tomatoes at best. My question is, [B]"If I were to save seeds from those few tomatoes, do those seeds have much of a chance to grow healthy productive plants when planted next growing season?" [/B]

The seeds are not rare or anything (Black Cherry) and I'm thinking that it would be better to toss the seeds I have and just buy some more. But, I am curious about the question above.[/QUOTE]

Robert, the major reason I have never participated in a swap and never will, is b'c you have no idea where those seeds came from, geographically re possible tomato diseases, nor who donated the seeds and how they might have processed them.

Only once had I set out several plants of the same variety, and I knew who produced them, but not how they processed them until it was too late, and I could see no evidence of any foliage diseases and they were so stunted I pulled all of them.

All to say I would definitely NOT save seeds from any fruits, rather, I would buy new seeds,

[url]http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Black_Cherry#tab=General_Info[/url]

Why not buy them from Tomato Growers since it was Linda's late husband Vince who bred them, Tania says from a natural cross but Vince bred them, not from a natural cross.

When looking at seed availabiity Tania has not updated for 2015 but most of those places I'm sure still have them.

I talked to Linda about them and suggested what Vince might have used, but obviously she was not willing to speak to that. I was one of a few who bought seeds when they were first listed it and the germination was horrible. When I asked linda about it, she's been a long time friend and I've sent many seeds to her for trial, she said that that first batch of seeds had too many immature seeds in it and that's why the germination was so bad. They had not contracted out seed production for it, did it themselves and didn't have that much experience doing it.

However, saving seeds from fruits that did appear gave close to 100% germination when sowed, so indeed it was an immature seed situation at first.

So buy some new seeds and get rid of those stunted plants.:)

Carolyn