13-13-13
 

I just bought some Mittleider Magic
it is 13-8-13 how can i bump the
p to 13 thanks

Les :wait:

You would mix it pound for pound with a 13-18-13.

Never seen that, you would need to custom order it
from someplace that will make a custom N-P-K fertilizer
for you. I would just add a tablespoon of high phosphate
guano or superphosphate to a pound of the 13-8-13 and
call it close enough.

Be sure to try a plant or two without the extra phosphate,
too. 13-8-13 may actually be enough phosphorous.

Les, went to Resh's site and they are saying the 13-8-13 (2-1-2 ratio)is better than the 13-13-13. Here's a copy from the site. Ami

[QUOTE]
It’s easy and hassle-free to mix a packet of micro-nutrients with 25#’s of 16-16-16 and 4# of Epsom Salt to obtain a good Weekly Feed. It’s also very inexpensive, when compared to anything else that’s even close to comparable, such as Miracle Gro.
For those of you who can’t find pre-mixed 16-16-16, 15-15-15, 13-13-13-, or 17-17-17, all of which are usable with the pre-packaged micro-nutrients, then check a farm-supply store for bags of each separately.
For example, you may be able to find 21-0-0 (ammonium sulfate), and 0-45-0 (triple super phosphate), and 0-0-50 (potassium sulfate). If so, mix 15# 21-0-0 with 4# 0-45-0, and 6# 0-0-50. That gives you 25# of a 110-60-110 mix, which is approximately the ratio in which your plants use the three Macro-Nutrients, and is even better than 16-16-16, etc.
Then add 4# of Epsom Salt from your pharmacy – mix it all together and you have the Weekly Feed mix. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=amideutch;219151]Les, went to Resh's site and they are saying the 13-8-13 (2-1-2 ratio)is better than the 13-13-13. Here's a copy from the site. Ami[/QUOTE]
I have just come upon this thread titled 13-13-13, when I was searching for quantities of Epsom Salts to use in a foliar spray. This seemed to be the first and only page and I am intrigued to know at what stage you are using this to feed, presumably tomatoes.
I understood that nutrients that high in N were not suitable for tomatoes as they produce too much leaf, but then I am not sure in which circumstance you are suggestig this.
Thanks

hi ami,
thanks for your reply.i though that
bumping up the jacob mittleider
magic weekly feed mix could make
it better ? maybe not ??, i just got
a 25# bag of it last week thanks
again. les

gill,
the 13-8-13 was made by jacob mittielder
i think he was the first to use the square
foot gardening ?, he had a big nursery
in redlands ca. for many years and he
sold it in the late 1960's.
he started the food for every one
foundation and his nutes are still
being sold by the steve regan co.
regards.

les
foot

gill_s, this is a system where they add small amounts of fertilizer weekly
to the soil or container mix. You can find more information here:
[url]http://foodforeveryone.org/index.php[/url]

Here is the products page from that site:
[url]http://foodforeveryone.org/fertilizers/[/url]

There is a thread here where you can find it applied by Carolyn Phillips
and see pictures of her plants:
[url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18309[/url]

As for epsom salt, it is widely available, from 50lb bags for
horticultural use to small quantities at deparment stores, pharmacists,
and so on.

This paper on "Epsom Salt Myths" from a respected horticultural
researcher is worth reading for anyone contemplating using it:
[url]http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Epsom%20salts.pdf[/url]

The "Mittleider method" is intended to supply whatever a plant
needs in the way of N-P-K and trace elements, thus the addition of
epsom salt as a magnesium and sulfur source. You could probably
grow plants in mulched, washed sand and use the Mittleider fertilizers
and it would work (as long as you kept careful track of water levels, etc).

Where anything unused in the fertilizer goes after it leaches through
the sand is anyone's guess.

hi gill,
if you want to you can order mittielder
magic mix from stevs regan co. it is
24.72 dollars a bag plus shipping

like ami said in his post above that
13-8-13 is better than 13-13-13 so
i will use the bag that i bought from
steve regan co. as is and not try to
bump to 13-13-13, regards.

les

13-13-13
 

Thank you for your replies.
Also thank you for the links,Dice.
Now I am totally confused. I always thought the level of N should be only half that of K, otherwise there would be too much lush growth and poor fruit set. Certainly the thread showing Caroline's greenhouse with the amazing tomatoes would belie that argument.
Unfortunately here in the UK we cannot get many of the products,such as the Micronutrient mix, which you can.
Certainly all the tomato feeds here eg Tomorite have considerably higher K than N. I have in front of me a box of Chempak soluble Tomato Food which is 11-9-30. These are recommended for once the first truss sets, before then the recommendation is no extra feed. Here in the UK most people grow in much smaller containers or grow bags, with often 3 plants per bag.
Maybe our high K content is why we nearly always get Magnesium deficient plants.
I should certainly like to mix my own fertilisers, I shall have to investigate whether there is anywhere here that does sell the micronutients.
Thanks again, Gill

I think the Mittleider fertilizer ratios are more general purpose,
not just for tomatoes. They will probably grow any kind of vegetable.
That may be more nitrogen than a tomato plant needs but not
necessarily more than a squash or okra or spinach or whatever needs.

13-13-13
 

OK, thanks.
That is in line with what I thought.
We struggle every year to know just how much feed to give the tomatoes. We grow in containers in a self-watering system, with wicks from 11litre pots going into a common reservoir( up to 8 pots in the system). We only allow the one vine,removing all other side shoots. We have several of these systems, some in the Greenhouse and some outside.
The nutrient which comes with the kit is intended for anything you may want to grow, from lettuces, beans, cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
We felt that this nutrient would not be adequate for tomatoes carrying several trusses of fruit, At the other extreme we bought some Peters Professional at 9-9-36, being advised that this would give a better flavoured tomato.
We were advised by one of te PP technical guys that there would not be too much potassium to use this in the system reservoirs from when the plants had flowers. It obviously was too much as the plants are showing severe Magnesium deficiency which I gather is caused by excess K.
The tomato food manufacturers seem to all give differing advice about how much to feed, some of them not differentiating between container grown and garden grown plants, leaving the non experts totally confused!

Hi Dice,
Dr. Jacob Mittielder had a degree in plantology
he traveled all over the world teaching and setting
up large scale sq.ft. gardening systems his passion
was mainly tomatoes this is how he developed the
Mittlielder magic mix.
I have been using this mix for the past week and I can
see a big difference in green up plus alot of fruit too I
have been using foliage pro for the last three years
with very good results also but from now on I'll be
using the Mittlieder MIX from now on as I can't and
won't ignore or contradict the tremendous results
he achieved through uis fifty years of experiments.

(just look at carolyn philips plants )

Les

gill,
I also have difficulty choosing which nutrients to pick from what is available in the UK market. Many of the specialised tomato foods are very good, but I fear many of them are lacking in some of the micronutrients so may not be the best choice for some container or semi-hydro systems.

I have had good success using Phostrogen on my indoor container tomato plants over winter/early spring this year. It is 14-10-27, so more balanced than the Peters stuff, and has all the micronutrients. The only extra thing I have added is a very small amount of Epsom salts for a little extra mg. I used it at quarter strength at (nearly) every watering, bottom watered in trays so similar to a wicking system, and plenty of perlite and bark in the potting mix to help aerate the roots.

I understand that in the early days of hydroponics, before there were any specialist nutrients on the market, the pioneers used Phostrogen as the basis for their experiments.

I am going to be using the Phostrogen on most of my outdoors container plants this year, and will let you know how I get on.

You folks in England, can you find General Hydroponics ferts? If so, you may want to check out Flora Nova Grow. Its 7-4-10 with complete micronutrients. I am using it in my grow bags and having a very good experience.

It seems we can get the FloraNova Grow at the websites that deal to the cannabis growing crowd. Very expensive though, at least five times the cost of Phostrogen, probably more. I see it listed at £20 ($32) for 1 litre (quarter of a US gallon). Is it cheaper than that in the US?

Mag

Definitely. I just got it for $64.00 for a gallon, and that included shipping. It goes a long way at 1-2 teaspoon per 4 litres.

Maf,

Thanks for the tip about Phostrogen. You say you use it at 1/4 strength for your overwintering plants. Do you up the rate when you have plants with 2or 3 trusses of growing tomatoes on? I notice the instructions say 1/4 strength at every watering for container grown pants, but these could just be flowering ornamentals, or in our case fruiting, hungry plants.

My last question-Do you mix the Epsom salts at the beginning into the compost or mix it in when dissolving the Phostrogen?

Having said that was my last question I should be very interested to know which OP varieties you find set fruit well in our increasingly cold Springs. My only real failure to get any set fruit so far this season has been Spear's Tennessee Green(-in the greenhouse with a minimum of 10degC at night.) I realise it is all part of the fun of trying new varieties but it would be good to know of 'no hopers' and those with a good chance of success!
My real stars for setting this year have been Berkeley Tie Dye Pink(recommended by B54Red-many thanks!) and Maya and Sion's Airdrie Classic from Jeff Casey. Most of my others have been pretty good.
Gill

gill,

I kept the Phostrogen at quarter strength the whole time, I was worried I would get salt build-up or a nutrient imbalance if I went any stronger. I was fertigating once a day, but once a week I would just use plain water instead for a flushing effect.

I used the Epsom salts about once a week, either mixed with the Phostrogen or (usually) on the plain water day. I didn't use much, maybe a teaspoon per 5 litres of water.

Best OP's for setting fruit in the greenhouse this year have been Pervaya Lyubov, Tsar Kolokol and Malachite Box (Malakhitovaya Shkatulka) and outside has been Japanese Black Truffle. My Brad Gates stuff (including Pink Berkely Tie Dye) have been much slower to flower than these Russian types, despite being sown at the same time and being treated the same. In the greenhouse the Brad Gates ones are only now setting fruit (and lots in the case of Red Boar, Black and Brown Boar and Sweet Carneros Pink) but they are still pea size or smaller. For a comparison the largest Tsar Kolokol is bigger than a tennis ball and Pervaya Lyubov has many, many at the golf ball size.

maf, I have had excellent results with BioBizz BioGrow which I have been using for the last 5 years. Also Neudorf Tomaten Dunger. Ami

[URL]http://www.growell.co.uk/biobizz-nutrients.html[/URL]

[URL]http://www.amazon.de/Neudorff-W-GmbH-KG-NEUDORFF/dp/B002CW7M6E[/URL]

Thanks Ami, those look good. I might try some of the Biobizz Bio-Grow, I like that it is organic too.

Maf'
It sounds as if you shall get a good progressive crop of tomatoes instead of them all coming at once. Time to taste and appreciate any new varieties.
One I didn't mention which I tend to accept will always perform well is Kumato. I know a lot of people don't like it. We do and it performs so well and keeps extremely well. It is said to be a hybrid but my source, from Australia , is adamant that they are OP. Maybe she has bred them out to be OP.
I am not sure whether this thread is the right place to be discussing varieties. Apologies if not

a terrible pain
 

Wow finding fertilizer around here is a terrible pain. I drove all over the place today looking for 13-8-13 or anything close the only thing I could find was 10-10-10 "plant food" Everyone carries Osmecote but thats time released stuff and defiantly not for weekly feeding. I ordered the Mettlieder Micro nutrient package thinking Id have no problem finding the fertilizer and trying to find them separately and mix them would also be a nightmare. I guess I'll wind up just mixing the micro nutrients with tomato-tone (a paltry 3-4-6) and using that. Or mixing with the 10-10-10 or becoming unglued mentaly by trying to mix separate types.

Vinny, Check out General Hydroponics (FloraMato). The NKP is tailored for tomato growth and if you want to bump the nitrogen during the growth phase you can add some calcium nitrate. These nutrients are dissolved in water and then applied to the plants.
It's always a good idea to get a soil test done if your growing in the dirt.Then you know exactly what you are dealing with before adding more ferts. If your growing in containers using soilless growing medium then that's a different story. Also check out the mycorrhiza products as they assist the plant in nutrient uptake and disease resistance. Here's some links which also include organic nutrients in dry form. Ami

[url]http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydroponics-FloraMato-10-6-18-Pound/dp/B000WA4ZZE[/url]

[url]http://www.planetnatural.com/site/search_engine.html?show_all=1&prod_group=Organic%20Fertilizers&category=Dry%20Fertilizer[/url]

Thank you for the links, I'm growing in 10 gallon smartpots with MG potting mix and a little cow manure compost. Good results other than all my plants dealing with fungal issues (black spots) and leaf miner flies between the 2 it's a miracle I have any foliage left. I'm starting to see fruit now and I'd like to help the plants with a really good feeding regiment. I've been using a kelp tea and a fish emulsion every other week and tomato-tone but I'm not sure it's really enough.

For fungal issues you can go the non organic route with Daconil which is a preventative or you can go with the bio/bio-friendly combination of Actiovate and EXEL LG which are a curative, systemic fungicides and all three have been topics of conversation her at TVille.
I would go with the GE FloraTomato in lieu of the tomato tone since you have fruit set and apply on a weekly basis.If you have any Hydro dealers in the area see if they carry BioBizz BioGrow if you want to go organic and you can apply it every time you water your plants. I've used it for the past 4 years and have had excellent results in my container grow outs. Ami

FloraMato looks good just need to find a place to get it. The Amazon seller is out of stock. The hydraponics store not far from me sells BioBizz Top Max but wow its 50.00 for a 1 liter bottle, I wonder how long it would last.

[QUOTE=Vinny;234902]FloraMato looks good just need to find a place to get it. The Amazon seller is out of stock. The hydraponics store not far from me sells BioBizz Top Max but wow its 50.00 for a 1 liter bottle, I wonder how long it would last.[/QUOTE]
Seems like there are a lot of online dealers charging far less for the Biobizz stuff. Sounds like an interesting product.

You want the BioGrow. Top Max is to increase the size of the MJ buds. Ami

I can use Actiovate and Exel LG at the same time right? I ordered both of those today. I'm hoping that those will end my fungal issues. Looks like I have Septoria leaf spot or something that looks very similar.

No Guaranty that they will cure your fungal problems depending on how advanced they are but I for one and others who have used it and have had good results. The trick is to start using them before your plants are infected and continue on during the course of the growing season. Yes, Actinovate and EXEL LG can be mixed and applied at the same time.
Ami

Actinovate and ExelLG made a huge difference with my plants in a couple weeks it's just a few leafs here and there that have spots and it doesn't seem like it's effecting the leaf as it was before, not rapidly killing the leaf. Still picking a few spotted leafs here and there but nothing like the mass execution of foliage that was happening before, I wish I had known about these products in the spring it would have saved many of the plants I lost to this stuff. Mettlieder micro nutrients and the product I got instead of Floramato (which is apparently no longer being made) which is made by the same company are making a visible difference as well I believe. Thanks for all the help in this thread.