What would be too much
 

Okay, I recall a few seasons ago blindly adding and probably way too much lime to a few beds that undoubtedly have not fair well for any tomato plants. The plants struggle but don't die,, they eventually grow but don't produce much and if any, way late and few at eos. My question is what would be considered too much for a well composted bed of about a 100 sq.ft? And I think I over applied the following season too..I seem to look okay with the color test capsule rapitest kit.. but I think I still overdosed a couple of my troubled tomato beds using too much lime. I thought at the time, tomato plants like lots of lime/ I also used lots of wood ash my the wood stove too over the last few years. probably used in total last four seasons.. one full bag of lime and at least a couple five gallon buckets of wood ash ( about a five gallon every season.. I haven't limed last two season but prior to that I used about a 10lbs per bed per season. Going to send some soil out to get tested soon. Just curious if I used too much of either/both.

If you sent it to a good lab, you will find out. That's about all I can say.

I seldom if ever add lime. I figure if the soil needs anything, the worms will dig down deep and bring it up. Or the deep rooted plants will, or both. I do add ashes from the grill, but it is not much.

Stop putting lime on you soil.
Lime makes soil less acidic.
Tomatoes like acid soil.
Get an ortho dial and spray and set it on the highest setting.
Fill it with vinegar and spray a little on your soil.
The soil will boil don't freak out this is neutralizing the soil.
Put out some ironite.

After this the plants will take off.

What you have is a high alkali soil that will not allow the plants to take up nutrients.
I just about bet this is you problem.
It was my problem last year it worked and is still working.
I used a home soil test kit to test the soil with RO water.
Small amounts of wood ash will add potassium to the soil.
Potassium is known as potash because it was discovered from the ashes of burned potted plants.

Worth

Send your soil sample to your county extension. Rutgers. When you get your results, you'll receive recommendations about what you need to add and how much. I would not add anything until I had the results and knew exactly what I needed to do. You've already made PH adjustments blindly; what once...twice...maybe 3 times? Use this link: [URL]http://njaes.rutgers.edu/soiltestinglab/pdfs/home/Home_and_Landscape_-_Soil_Sampling_Instructions.pdf[/URL]
As a matter of fact, I'm waiting for my own soil test results. Make sure you take the sample the way they say to do it. It is important.
Charlie

[QUOTE=Worth1;340057]Stop putting lime on you soil.
Lime makes soil less acidic.
Tomatoes like acid soil.
Get an ortho dial and spray and set it on the highest setting.
Fill it with vinegar and spray a little on your soil.
The soil will boil don't freak out this is neutralizing the soil.
Put out some ironite.
Worth[/QUOTE]

There must be some serious levels of carbonates in that soil to cause it to bubble with a diluted acid. What did you use? 5% or 10% vinegar?

[QUOTE=RayR;340281]There must be some serious levels of carbonates in that soil to cause it to bubble with a diluted acid. What did you use? 5% or 10% vinegar?[/QUOTE]

I think it was the ironite maybe as I put it on first.
I used 5% maybe 10 I had one of each in the kitchen. :roll:
Twice in one growing season and once this year.
I will continue to use it as my water is very high in chlorine.

I really dont know what I am doing but every time I decide something is wrong I do something and it gets over whatever it is.:?!?:

Been doing it for years.:lol:

I have been telling people here for years that I am an idiot that gets really lucky.:cute:

Worth

Now I'm disappointed Worth. I thought you were a seasoned pro, Now you tell me you are just a darn lucky guy who makes stuff up as you go along.:))
If I did that I'd screw things up every time.:cry:

I agree with Worth regarding the high PH you have created in the soil. The combination of the wood ashes and lime have probably sweetened it up way too much. If, as you say, you have used a lot of wood ashes also they are probably more responsible for the high PH than the lime. No more wood ashes for a while. Maybe a long while. The K that you get from the wood ashes leaches quite slowly so you may not need to add any of that for a while either. You may want to consider using some cottonseed meal as a fertilizer as this will add acid to your soil. Pretty high in nitrogen though, so don't over do it.

I have read that 50% of the volume of wood ashes is a liming agent.

I burn about a cord of wood in a fireplace every year and like the idea of using the wood ashes to reduce acid in soil. So I spread them on my lawn under pine trees instead of in the vegetable garden. The reason I don't use them in the vegetable garden is because I want to use lime. I want the calcium in the lime as well as the limes ability to reduce acid. From what I have read sufficient levels of calcium not only make for more nutricious vegetables, but also help prevent blossom end rot in tomatoes.

You gents are awesome, I bet that is the problem...I definitely added way too much lime and wood ash ..these home test kits don't really work..I have been busy lately with my business but meaning to send a sample to my nj rutgers lab.. try to do this tomorrow and will certainly post the results here when the test is confirmed. I will likely have to amend it as recommended here too. But only after I know for sure how to go about it here. Thank you all for sharing..may you have all have a happy fruitful season;)

I don't think the home kits work. My levels were all low, with N not even registering. Every single comment I've seen about them, the reading for N was negligible or non-existent. So either every soil across the country is low in Nitrogen or those tests are, at the minimum, flawed.

Or maybe only low N people comment? Or I maybe I'm just falling for confirmation bias. I did find out I have loam, which was nice. Nutrient poor loam, but still.


Tl

Actually most soils really are low in N, unless they have been fertilized recently. As microbes break down organics it becomes available, and is quickly snatched up by whatever is growing there. It just naturally doesnt stick around very long in the soil. Get the soil biology right, and the microbes will keep a steady supply to the plants. Otherwise, it will have to be added as fertilizer.

I guess, but you'd think a bed that's been amended with compost, newspaper, and mulch, and has several happy plants in it, would at least register! I probably just did the test wrong, I was a little distracted at the time.

Just feel like I could have put the $5 towards a real test! I wonder how to get more microbes going?

[QUOTE=RayR;340347]Now I'm disappointed Worth. I thought you were a seasoned pro, Now you tell me you are just a darn lucky guy who makes stuff up as you go along.:))
If I did that I'd screw things up every time.:cry:[/QUOTE]

Most seasoned pro's eventually get to that point. It isn't as hit or miss as Worth tries to pretend. ;) It is however using that instinctive part of the brain that can come up with solutions intuitively. If you are watching and enjoying your garden daily, the clues are there. You may not be able to specifically point to them. But somewhere deep in your subconscious they are recorded and you can use that information. With experience you will get it eventually. You'll probably even end up surprising yourself.:D

My best suggestion is to try looking at things as wholes or whole systems instead of just individual parts. It is called "systems thinking" or "holism". Once you start looking at everything that way, you will find it a whole lot easier. (pun intended);)

Redbaron, you are absolutely right.. every season when I thought I was a know it all and used too much ash and lime.. and horse stall mix with wood chips.. I mean ,,i watched and thought I was tending but knew something was wrong when my neighbor at my campsite plants after me and gets huge tomatoes before me.. I mean ..I am more into it now more than ever.. the deer here are yard metro deer.. they will eat my plants too given the opportunity. they are really like pets around here,, not so afraid to stay away so, I have to fence my beds.. today a rabbit got in one bed..i will soon redo the fencing (galv wire) plastic the bite a hole right through , especially the woodchucks. Anyway, I'm no pro but definitely seasoned

john

how are the seedlings? any rebounding?

i was at HD and they actually had a decent selection. have you been shopping yet?

yes, they aren't growing but standing firm about three inches lol.. the stems are purple and thin... i might try transplanting a dozen of about twenty some that seem to be cligging in bigger pots . I think it may help with loosened potting soil. but thanks for asking..I also want a few different tomato plants like rutgers and ramapo if they become available.. really looking forward to getting a soil test.. been very busy and think tomorrow I may have time to mail a soil sample in for tests.

a family member came home with some determinate rutgers tomatoes. i guess there are determinate and semi determinate or semi indeterminate.......not sure

anyway i now have 2 diff rutgers strains to try out. if i had extra rutgers i'd offer but i really dont. i will most likely have extra sungold f1 seedlings if you're interested along with about 10-15 other varieties i have backups of. i started too many seeds this year.

today was the 1st day outdoors for most plants. they got about 1 hour of shade... tomorrow i might introduce a little sun or just a lot of shade. the 10 day forecast gets better everyday. after tomorrow night the lows are in the upper 40s and after i finish hardening off its time to plant out

get those samples in. if i remember correctly they take a couple of weeks. then you'll have to amend your garden before plant out.

yes, i know what you mean, tomorrow i must mail it out,, have a few jobs to finish ans also going trout fishing upstate this weekend. I suspect I put too much lime and wood ash in my garden beds, I added way too much every season too. I will post test results either way. got to sign off , thanks again and be well!

I am growing both types of Rutgers also. From what I have read the indeterminate is the original and the determinate in an improved version of Rutgers. The reason I am trying both is to see if the determinate will grow well in 5 gal containers. I seem to have better luck with determinates in containers and there are so few determinate heirlooms that I figured I would give the Rutgers a chance.

Just wanted to say I finally sent in my soil samples to Rutger's University for testing. I know it could be a few weeks but hoping to find out before planting. I will certainly post the test results here. I also want to get a few Rutgers plants too.

soil lab test results
 

Hey everybody, I had Rutger's university here in nj email me my soil test results and they also recommended I should lower my ph.. ph was 7.3 ..so i bought today epsona yo lower ph garden soil? I guess it is a safer than alum.sulfate as it suggests on the 6lb bag for ten dollars. Anybody use this stuff in their gardens to lower ph ?

No experience with epsona yo lower ph garden soil, but happy to see you got your soil test results.

How were the rest of the results on NKP etc.

All the other metals were adequate with the exception of magnesium and iron which were high.. but not very high.. ph was 7.39 and they recommended not adding anymore lime /wood ash or compost.. I might not add much if any this stuff from home depot.. it is in a blue/white 6 lb. bag .. i might sprinkle a row away from the plants , i'm not even sure if it is needed with a 7.39 ph.. guess i'll check back here and wait for replies before adding this stuff.

acidifier ?
 

[URL="http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/Esp_Soil_acidif.pdf"]http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/Esp_Soil_acidif.pdf [/URL]this is the stuff i might experiment on two of the five garden beds .. these two beds tested 7.39 nut could have been much higher last few seasons when i dumped in too much lime sawdust and wood ash.. maybe this season I will not need to reduce this 7.39? Any recommendations always appreciated :? [IMG]http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/Esp_Soil_acidif.pdf[/IMG]

Tom Kay from the Flower Farm advised using just white wine vinegar. (cheap) Said the soil critters love it. Just don't put it on plants. Will kill weeds also.

DO NOT put straight vinegar on your soil.
At least I dont.
For a quick fix use 5% acidity vinegar pour into to an Ortho dial and spray completely full.
Set sprayer on the 6 or 8 oz setting and saturate your soil.
You can spray your plants and all it wont hurt.
If you are worried you can wash the plants off after spraying.
In just a matter of no time you will see your plants leap with new growth.

One word of caution.
If your soil is saturated with too much nitrogen the plants will now take it up like it never has before.
DO NOT fertilize for at least 3 days and look for new growth.

Remember you only want to do one thing at a time if you are not for sure what the problem is.

That is true for everything.

Worth

okay you guys suggest I go get my money back and try a 5 percent to water ratio.. worth , you saying like a cup of white vinigar to a gallon water and sprinkle it all around my plants existing and also the two empty beds i'm going to plant this week ? we have spotty thunder showers this pm.. the beds are kinda wet enough to do this now.. think i'll try this method you two proposed..thanks.for sharing

[QUOTE=nnjjohn;348153]okay you guys suggest I go get my money back and try a 5 percent to water ratio.. worth , you saying like a cup of white vinigar to a gallon water and sprinkle it all around my plants existing and also the two empty beds i'm going to plant this week ? we have spotty thunder showers this pm.. the beds are kinda wet enough to do this now.. think i'll try this method you two proposed..thanks.for sharing[/QUOTE]

The Vinegar is 5% acidity it says so on the container the ratio in the dial and spray has settings.
From 8oz to 1 tsp per gallon.:)

Worth