garden lime
 

just picked up some mayville garden lime from menards on the way home from the DRs. don't know if this is the right kind to use for the rain gutter grown system soil mix or not, it's called mayville garden lime zone89-89 quarry lime, whatever that means, lol calcium 22%----magnesium 12%---total neutralizing powder 102%, in terms of calcium carbonate. what ever that means? anyone know what that all means and if that would be fine for the rain gutter grow systen soil mix? thanks---tom:?

If it says Garden Lime AND you got it in the garden center then there should be no worries.

Garden lime = calcium carbonate.

I was going to start a thread with a question about Garden lime, but thanks, I'll piggyback here. I use it in peat mixes for containers. I understand it's purpose - to reduce the acidity of the mix - especially to help control BER.

Now my question : Do you need to add lime to a peat based mix that will be used for potting up and growing seedlings to the point they are ready to plant out or put into a larger pot? Do you need it when you are not going to grow to the fruit stage in the mix? Does the acidity harm the basic plant at that stage?

Actually, that was three questions, but thanks for the answers.

[QUOTE=dfollett;534742]I was going to start a thread with a question about Garden lime, but thanks, I'll piggyback here. I use it in peat mixes for containers. I understand it's purpose - to reduce the acidity of the mix - especially to help control BER.

Now my question : Do you need to add lime to a peat based mix that will be used for potting up and growing seedlings to the point they are ready to plant out or put into a larger pot? Do you need it when you are not going to grow to the fruit stage in the mix? Does the acidity harm the basic plant at that stage?

Actually, that was three questions, but thanks for the answers.[/QUOTE]

Well they wont grow if the pH isn't right.
There I answered all three.;)

Worth

The general rules I follow with PH

Tomatoes like 6.0-6.8 PH
Potatoes like 5.5-6.5 PH
Leafy Veges like 6.5-7.2 PH

All three grow fine in my garden, so that's about all the info I've looked up on those. The reason for adding amendments like lime is to get the preferred PH levels you need.

For 4 years now, I've told myself that I want to plant our potatoes in an area 50' away from our garden where the soil is 5.5PH. And for the forth year, I forgot. I need to see if I can find a few seed potatoes tomorrow to give it a shot.

[QUOTE=encore;534392]just picked up some mayville garden lime from menards on the way home from the DRs. don't know if this is the right kind to use for the rain gutter grown system soil mix or not, it's called mayville garden lime zone89-89 quarry lime, whatever that means, lol calcium 22%----magnesium 12%---total neutralizing powder 102%, in terms of calcium carbonate. what ever that means? anyone know what that all means and if that would be fine for the rain gutter grow systen soil mix? thanks---tom:?[/QUOTE]

The main purpose of garden lime is to raise the pH of the soil. Blindly adding garden lime is not a good practice. Only add lime to soil if your pH is too low and you want to raise the pH.

Rain gutter grow system soil mix.... I have no idea what that is, but if you want to raise the pH it will most likely work.

larry hall the creator of the raingutter growing system, got back with me and said that's the exact same lime he uses, so i'm good to go. the soil mix i refer to is what he uses, pretty much--peat---compost---perlite--lime--a bit of epsom salts, and 10-10-10 fertilizer around top edge of bucket. ----tom (thanks for all the responses)

Well, based on the Ca:Mg ratio - that standard 2:1 - that is likely dolomite limestone.

If you are chasing that golden ratio of 7:1 to 10:1 Ca:Mg - dolomite will never get you there before you end up with too much Mg and locking out K. Ideally, you want your soil to have about 65% calcium...which comes from many different sources outside of your liming amendments.

You are better off going with a more pure calcium carbonate source like oyster shell flour (western US) or aragonite (eastern US). These amendments can impact soils positively for up to 5 years where a standard ag lime or dolomite is often applied yearly to control pH.

Where I live the native soils are sandy loam and therefore tend to leach Mg rather quickly. I offset this by using other amendments like gypsum and sul-po-mag.

Given the media you say you are using, you can assume, 1c of lime per cu ft of peat moss to bring the pH into the proper range.

I too find lime a bit confusing, not the WHY of using it but the different forms of it. As in....dolomite, fast acting, hydrated, pelleted, powder, etc.

I finally ended up going with Espoma which is listed as dolomite on back of package, it was much more expensive for the amount but I got tired of trying to figure it all out so figured better safe than sorry. I purchased several bags as I am making loads of potting mix this year.

[QUOTE=jillian;534852]I too find lime a bit confusing, not the WHY of using it but the different forms of it. As in....dolomite, fast acting, hydrated, pelleted, powder, etc.

I finally ended up going with Espoma which is listed as dolomite on back of package, it was much more expensive for the amount but I got tired of trying to figure it all out so figured better safe than sorry. I purchased several bags as I am making loads of potting mix this year.[/QUOTE]


I can tell you Hydrated lime is the same thing as slacked lime pickling lime AKA calcium hydroxide and so on.
This is the stuff that will take the skin off of you and also what they use to make hominy.;)
Makes cement and stucco pliable to a degree.
Worth

My plants don't read books, they don't know tomatoes are not supposed to grow in ph 8.4. I won't tell them.

You can come and get all the lime you want.

[QUOTE=TheUrbanFarmer;534850]Well, based on the Ca:Mg ratio - that standard 2:1 - that is likely dolomite limestone.

If you are chasing that golden ratio of 7:1 to 10:1 Ca:Mg - dolomite will never get you there before you end up with too much Mg and locking out K. Ideally, you want your soil to have about 65% calcium...which comes from many different sources outside of your liming amendments.

You are better off going with a more pure calcium carbonate source like oyster shell flour (western US) or aragonite (eastern US). These amendments can impact soils positively for up to 5 years where a standard ag lime or dolomite is often applied yearly to control pH.

Where I live the native soils are sandy loam and therefore tend to leach Mg rather quickly. I offset this by using other amendments like gypsum and sul-po-mag.

Given the media you say you are using, you can assume, 1c of lime per cu ft of peat moss to bring the pH into the proper range.[/QUOTE]

Now we're getting somewhere.
This is what people need to look at to understand that ph is not what you are trying for.
You are balancing elements. When this is achieved, pH will go where it needs to be.
You Should not be trying to achieve a pH number and think your good to go when you get the soil to that number and just need to add fertilizer.

In general, I find there are some folks who enjoy doing science experiments as much as growing tomatoes. I get that it could be fun. haha. :lol:However, my "common sense" approach to vegetable gardening (and tomatoes) usually works out fine...with a little knowledge/experience mixed in. My seedlings have been growing fine with a quality potting mix or seed starter mix....either one. Part of the fun of doing anything (in my opinion) is getting better. This is where knowledge/experience/science comes in. The journey is the fun!:yes:

More often than not, people fail to understand soil as a living ecosystem and think via their inputs they are in control. I suppose with chemical fertilizers that is the case as everything is in a plant available ionic form - but I've never considered that to be a good thing.

Please understand I'm not "preaching" or trying to convert anybody to changing their ways or even stating my methodologies to be superior. I'm merely sharing my understanding and approach to gardening, much like the rest of you.

I value data. I value science. It can confirm my anecdotal observations or obliterate them entirely. Ultimately though, proper science results in higher efficiency of resources. The more efficient my garden becomes, the more return I see on investment.

The plant responds to environmental influences above the soil and sends signals to the roots, which then secrete exudates that control and direct soil biota within the rhizosphere to custom tailor the soil to the plants specific needs...and this includes soil pH.

Much in the same way a plant knows when it's time to begin producing fruit due to seasonal changes, the chemical signals being sent to the roots change. This change in chemicals attracts specific microbiology to the roots and allows for a shift in microbial populations, which directly alters what nutrition the plant is receiving...or essentially, what raw organic material is being "broken down" within the soil system.

It's all highly complex, but is all self-regulated by the plant itself...this is why diversification of soil amendments is highly recommended in an organic system. The more diverse the raw inputs, the more diverse the bacterial population will become. The more diverse the bacterial populations, the more responsive the ecosystem is to various root secretions and therefore, the healthier the plant will ultimately be.

This doesn't even take into consideration the actual chemistry of soil with things like CEC and ensuring the nutrition that becomes available for plant uptake actually stays within the soil and does not leach out... (calcium bentonite is of huge benefit in this regard)

All this is to say I agree with PureHarvest in saying proper pH is merely a direct consequence of a properly amended soil in the first place...

[QUOTE=Ed of Somis;535033]In general, I find there are some folks who enjoy doing science experiments as much as growing tomatoes. I get that it could be fun. haha. :lol:However, my "common sense" approach to vegetable gardening (and tomatoes) usually works out fine...with a little knowledge/experience mixed in. My seedlings have been growing fine with a quality potting mix or seed starter mix....either one. Part of the fun of doing anything (in my opinion) is getting better. This is where knowledge/experience/science comes in. The journey is the fun!:yes:[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. Results are results. I always say go with what works for you if u are pleased with your outcome.
However there are too many folks that struggle to get results with gardening. They usually read the regurgitated, form letter style advice to test for pH and add lime or sulfur to adjust pH as needed to get to some magic number between 6 and 7.
In reality, pH is influenced by four major cations (elements with a + charge): calcium, magnesium, sodium, and potassium.
Extremely high sodium will cause high pH. Potassium will influence pH even more than C or Mg!
Once all nutrients required are supplied and balanced, the pH will be right.
Or stated differently, "good" pH does not guarantee a balanced soil.

Now to the point of container mixes. Am I saying everyone needs to test their mix? No, that is probably too much for most hobbyists. But you need to consider that peat mixes have limestone added to balance the acidity of the peat. What kind of limestone? What calcium and how much are you adding? What effect will my nitrogen program have on calcium? It gets complicated in a hurry.
So, my suggestion is to ask people that have used a precise formula over the years and match that with results that you will be happy with and copy it. Don't mess with it unless you know what you are doing or want to try it on a small scale.

Urban, we are an agreement. Well said.

Well I am still going to use vinegar to keep my pH low it works great.
My city water is frigging loaded with calcium.
The plants are happy the worms are happy and I'm happy..
Worth

As far as matching results.
I like the build out of larry's gutter grow system.
But in pics and videos I've seen, most of the plants look sickly and weak.
Then I have seen a few that were robust with healthy green foliage and abundant fruit.
I don't recall the username here, but there was a guy from NY that had pics from last season that had NICE looking stuff using the gutter grow system. I'd want to know exactly what his soil mix was. And his fert program. Bonus points if he knew a little about his source water.

[QUOTE=Worth1;535052]Well I am still going to use vinegar to keep my pH low it works great.
My city water is frigging loaded with calcium.
The plants are happy the worms are happy and I'm happy..
Worth[/QUOTE]

Stick with what works!

Do u go through a lot of vinegar in a season?

[QUOTE=PureHarvest;535054]As far as matching results.
I like the build out of larry's gutter grow system.
But in pics and videos I've seen, most of the plants look sickly and weak.
Then I have seen a few that were robust with healthy green foliage and abundant fruit.
I don't recall the username here, but there was a guy from NY that had pics from last season that had NICE looking stuff using the gutter grow system. I'd want to know exactly what his soil mix was. And his fert program. Bonus points if he knew a little about his source water.[/QUOTE]


This feller.
[url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost.php?p=534717&postcount=2[/url]

Here are the links.
I have a great memory.;)
If I need advice I will ask him if I ever decide to do it.
[URL]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=35960[/URL]
[URL]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=37141[/URL]

[QUOTE=PureHarvest;535058]Stick with what works!

Do u go through a lot of vinegar in a season?[/QUOTE]

About 1 to 2 gallons a year maybe less.
Orhto dial and spray full of 5% set on 6 or 8 oz per gallon.
The soil foams the first application of the spring.:lol:

Worth

That looks right.
I think there was someone else too.
I like picture evidence. My version of success is different than others'.
I think people, me included, sometimes get hung up on the coolness of a contraption/system, it's parts, and the operation of it. But look at the plants too!
I recall an aquaponic set up I saw pics of. The structure was beautiful. The plants were spindly and looked pathetic. Not to mention the plant density in the greenhouse was abysmal. All that infrastructure for a handful of sorry plants. But everyone oohed and ahhhhed over the system because it looked cool and was recycling organic nutrients!
Basically, be careful who you copy. Think about what you are doing in why.
And when in doubt, ask Worth! Seriously, 17,000 plus posts aren't 10,000 of 'OK' or 'thanks' type replies!

[QUOTE=PureHarvest;535064]That looks right.
I think there was someone else too.
I like picture evidence. My version of success is different than others'.
I think people, me included, sometimes get hung up on the coolness of a contraption/system, it's parts, and the operation of it. But look at the plants too!
I recall an aquaponic set up I saw pics of. The structure was beautiful. The plants were spindly and looked pathetic. Not to mention the plant density in the greenhouse was abysmal. All that infrastructure for a handful of sorry plants. But everyone oohed and ahhhhed over the system because it looked cool and was recycling organic nutrients!
Basically, be careful who you copy. Think about what you are doing in why.
And when in doubt, ask Worth! Seriously, 17,000 plus posts aren't 10,000 of 'OK' or 'thanks' type replies![/QUOTE]

Don't ask me I am still learning and I planted enough plants this year to kill a few experimenting.
So far I haven't killed anything.:lol:

If I end up with all of them I will use them in shade and soil experiments around the place.

Worth

Great topic and comments. Any reliable pH meters one recommends

Jpop, just remember, pH does not tell you the whole story.
It's like using a thermometer to diagnose why you don't feel well.

Patient: "Dr., I took my temperature reading. It was 100 degrees. What do I have?"
Dr: "I have no way of knowing without more info. Your temp reading is a symptom, not a cause."

So, a pH test can be helpful, because it will tell you if you are waaaaay out of whack to clue you in on a nutrient imbalance, but you will still be left wondering what that actually is.
You can't just assume that a pH below 6.5 will need limestone. Then I would ask you what type of limestone will you need, dolomitic (lots of Mg with the C), or calcitic (little Mg with the C)? Are you gonna use calcium nitrate?
Then their is your source water. Look at Worth's example earlier with high calcium water...

Here is a recent soil sample I am working on:

[ATTACH]56633[/ATTACH]

The cations here are well balanced. And, when I look at the pH, low and behold, it is...6.4
Lime had not been applied to this ground in 2 years according to the owner.

You still need to then calculate what the crop needs will be for the season. Also, Calcium is easily knocked off the soil chain by rain. Nitrogen use, especially soluble forms, effect C too.
This is why I like supplying Calcium via Calcium Nitrate. I supply Magnesium via Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate). Potassium via my base fert blend that also has N and P and micros like Fe, Mn, Z, Cu, etc

It is interesting to note, that you can tell what this soil is like in texture just by the CEC (cation exchange capacity).
3.8 is low, which means it is sandy or loamy sand, or basically a light/well draining soil. It is low in humus or organic matter, so there is less surface area for chemical reaction (or cation exchanging) to occur.

My target goal for CEC is generally 18-25. I'd be shocked at such a low reading. Certainly a highly sandy soil...little to no clay or organic matter / humus.

I'd start by amending it with bio char, leonardite, calcium bentonite and earthworm castings.

That's tuff doing on 1,000 acres
But doable in the container or backyard