My Idea for grow lights...
 

I am having problems with what I thought was a simple question on other forums so I will put my idea here and see if there is a reaction because I am not a lighting or gardening expert
..I am trying to light my 4 X 5M greenhouse containing 60 Tomato plants (will be less next season) ...Now as I understand it based on comments received ,some people want me to buy all sorts of lights at a huge cost EG a grow light @ $30 per plant is $1800 and I would not even know what I was buying or if the product works.....plus there is the cost of being able to raise and lower these.....

I have thought that car headlights are a cheap option and I can get them for a tomato?? LED bulbs are getting cheaper ,and can be bought in a wide range of colour temperatures on Ebay...the headlights provides a reflector plus I can get the fusebox,harness,switches etc from a car to run as many circuits as I like via a 240 to 12V Power supply....I have been assured by a friend in Canada (who has all the brains here ) and he has thought this through and has designed a circuit for what he considers will do the job...Unfortunately its difficult getting hold of him at the moment...The lights are for light not heat ..thats what the i consider my plants require ...Now I may put TWO circuits or systems in because with my limited knowledge it depends on various factors ...It seems to me that by using headlights I could light up my greenhouse like the sun and using a combination of bulbs the light temperature would be between 2500K and 7oooK...My research tells me this is great for producing plant growth ..leaves flowers etc but what about the fruit ...when they arrive ...They have to ripen and I know cause thats whats happening to my crop this season (Downunder??)..Due to bad weather conditions I cannot get my fruit ripe ....

The reason (as I understand) is that there should be RED light (under 2500K ) at a ratio of at least 3 to 1 or even more and this is seen in LED grow Lights where one can see the diode colours and there can be up to 7 times more RED Led's than Blue LED's ...
So where do I get Red Light from..... Well I have various options ..

My latest madness is could I modify some headlight bulbs ...so far I have not got any answer from light foruns etc?? EG Could I exchange the diodes on a car 24 X LED headlamp bulb over to RED diodes ..after all I have seen some bulbs where the diodes look like they are just soldered on.. I wonder if possible and what is the degree of difficulty...Alternatively I have found other grow bulbs and I presume these could be used in a second circuit ..This could be a real asset ...and I think worth considering ..I could use circuit one till fruit appears and switch the second circuit on and run them together...But hopefully I can get some feedback on this....One thing I do know is growing seedlings etc inside under lights my Tomatoes really respond .Its quite incredible what a few CFL bulbs or Floro Tubes will do..and I want to get the positives out in my greenhouse for next season ..

So at the moment I am trying to discover if I am an old crazy man or a genius..When I find out if the above is even slightly possible i will rethink everything...........Regards Ron

Fruit doesn't need light to get ripe.
Not only are you going to have to drop the voltage your are going to have to switch it to DC.
This is going to consume a ton of energy to run car headlights even if they are LED.
It will take a good sized rectifier to handle all of that currant if they aren't LED.
It wont take long adding up a bunch of car head lamps and you will be drawing as many amps as a welding machine.
This will require a good sized transformer/power supply to handle it.
Some time ago I got the wild idea to run DC to my garden and light it up did the calculations and dropped the idea due to energy consumption.
Not only is there a huge power consumption there is a huge power drop in the wires forcing you to go to bigger wire.
If I were you I would start thinking about CFL Lights in the 6500K range.
These are the lights that best mimic the suns output at noon day.
They are a full spectrum light.

In the US we use 120 VAC where you live I think you use 240.
The difference is you guy can use smaller wire because the currant is shared buy two hot wires not one.

Don't over think the light spectrum too much as most of the information is put out by light manufacturers selling lights.
They do this to get people to buy expensive (Grow) lights they dont need.
This information is then passed on by people and the misinformation continues to grow.

If it is just for fruit ripening like I said you need temperatures to increase not light.
In your case about 21 degrees C or 70 degrees F for me.

Worth

My first thought is car lights would be no where near powerful enough for tomato plants.
You need lights you can grow pot under as tomatoes demand just as much light. What is the lumen output? I just use T5's and get over 28 thousand lumens. From VHO lights. I would see this a a minimum so however many it takes to at least get that much light is what you need.
I just want mine for seedlings thus do not need any red light, all my lamps are 6500K.
Not all headlamps are equal! The 9006 for example gives 1000lm. A D2S Xenon metal halide arc has about 3000lm. So about 9 of the latter focused on one spot would work.

I use a T5 VHO and a T5 HO. The VHO gives out over 28,000 lumens with 4 bulbs.

The T5 HO is probably not strong enough at 20,000. Great for seedlings, but 8 foot plants? No! You need hemp grade lamps.

Yeah, don't re-invent the wheel when it comes to lighting. Look at Metal Halide and High Pressure Sodium lights. Those are the two most cost-effective kinds. LED works, but I'd buy a real grow light, and not a cheap one, either. There are a lot of low quality LED grow lights on the market.

Here is the rundown on why you dont want to do this car light thing.

Lets take 1000 watts for an example.
If you put a 1000 watt draw at 12 volts DC you will be pulling about 83 amps.
If you take that same amount of wattage on a 120 VAC circuit you will be pulling about 8.3 amps.

At 83 amps 120 volt AC for 100 feet total circuit length you would need 4 gauge wire at DC 12 it is off the charts you would spend a fortune on wire just to keep from burning the place down.

Of course, you can put light bulbs in series and the voltage becomes less problematic. At 240 AC, 20 headlights would satisfy the voltage. The cycles, 60 here and 50 there is not a factor to the headlights either. Magnesium filaments in the lights don't care about AC vs DC. They only want enough current to fully excite the filament, thus producing the light. And that brings us back to the current (the amps). The electrical formula is "Voltage is equal to the Current times the Resistance". Thus, the resistance of the filament has a direct effect on the current for any given voltage. The higher the resistance, the lower the current.

My conclusion would be, "Without knowing the resistance of the filaments of the light bulbs, it would be impossible to calculate the Amps precisely, thus creating a safety issue like Worth was describing.

This safety thing is why I use "Florescent" bulbs for all my plants - Probably the easiest to do safely. Everything else produces a lot of heat that might not be wanted. I've built a lot of power supplies for this or that. I currently have a 12 volt supply that has a working capability of a bit more than 20 amps continuously. But even a few of those would not run a bunch of headlights.

I recommend you reconsider CFL's as being the only safe thing to do.

Worth, wasn't it you recently that made a fantastic light with cfl's and a shipping pallet? Maybe something like that(or several like that) would be most economical to light a 12x15 foot greenhouse.

Carrie

[QUOTE=clkingtx;551040]Worth, wasn't it you recently that made a fantastic light with cfl's and a shipping pallet? Maybe something like that(or several like that) would be most economical to light a 12x15 foot greenhouse.

Carrie[/QUOTE]

It wasn't a shipping pallet it was my old frame from my old T 12 florescent lights.:lol:

My wattage draw was 276 watts but the CFL lights were producing the equivalent of 1200 watts.
I was only pulling about 2.3 amps.

With the configuration I could have tippled it easy.
I know some folks here had a hard time grasping what I did and how it works.:lol:
Not only did I get fantastic non elongated growth but I also had tons of blooms forming and fruit set right here in the house.
Some of my first tomatoes of the season are due to this.
Done with 12 100 watt equivalent 6500K lights that only drew 23 watts each.
My thoughts behind it were energy savings and why put one 1000 watt light in and have the plant farther away suffer when you can spread it out with less energy consumption.
This allowed me to take the carbon footprint that I made smaller and transfer it to my motorcycle by going from 120 jets to 140 and burning more fuel there.:twisted:
Here is one way to look at current/amps, watts and voltage.
For one thing watts were borrowed from the steam engine as a way of expressing energy.
Only later on did they start using it as a way to measure electricity used.

Volts are like pressure.
And Amperage is like current.
Lets put this in wiring.
I hate doing it this way but it works.
If you are using 12 volts you have less pressure like you would in pipe at say 12 PSI.
To get the same amount of energy from point A to point B you need to do one or two things.
Increase the size of the pipe or wire or increase the pressure or voltage.
Now lets look at resistance.
That would be like friction loss in pipe.
The longer the run of wire the more resistance you are going to have, the same would be for pipe, in pipe it is known as friction loss.
In wiring it is known as voltage drop.
With both your are wasting energy.
In pipe it is pressure drop due to friction loss in wire it is energy in the form of heat.
So what do you do?
You increase the size of the pipe or increase the size of the wire at a given voltage or pressure.
To put this in perspective if our electric lines were 12 volt DC they would have to be as big as huge tree trunks in our neighborhood to carry the amount of electricity we use.
A the time Edison had no concept of the amount of electricity we use today.
Thank God for Tesla and his 3 phase concept and AC current.:lol:
Worth

From one who has both used, worked in, and taught Electronics and Electricity for 5 decades, I'd say that Worth has a good working knowledge. But Electricity is not easy to explain at any level. I DO believe that we are all trying to advise Ron that Automobile lights are not the best, nor the safest way to go. I hope we have communicated that to him.

Ron, even if you get the auto lights and manage to find enough of a power supply to run them, the cost of running those high amperage lights might be more than you'd have to pay for some CFL fixtures and lamps. You might even find a demolition site where there are CFL fixtures that range from "free" if you remove them to a couple bucks each.

I think the concensus here is that the 12 volt choice is not the safest route to take.

[QUOTE=ContainerTed;551073]From one who has both used, worked in, and taught Electronics and Electricity for 5 decades, I'd say that Worth has a good working knowledge. But Electricity is not easy to explain at any level. I DO believe that we are all trying to advise Ron that Automobile lights are not the best, nor the safest way to go. I hope we have communicated that to him.

Ron, even if you get the auto lights and manage to find enough of a power supply to run them, the cost of running those high amperage lights might be more than you'd have to pay for some CFL fixtures and lamps. You might even find a demolition site where there are CFL fixtures that range from "free" if you remove them to a couple bucks each.

I think the concensus here is that the 12 volt choice is not the safest route to take.[/QUOTE]

Ted do you mean florescent fixture ballast or CFL.
CFL is the designation for compact florescent light bulb.
Any standard screw in in light fixture will take them and my ceramic ones were very inexpensive.

This whole car light thing in the house came up years ago with someone and I.:lol:
I hope Ron got the information hes needs probably more than he needs.

Ted I have been experimenting and blowing fuses since the mid 60's.:lol:
Worked around power plants almost all of my life.
My neighbor is going to kill someone one of these days.
He buried 12 AWG THN directly in the ground no conduit about 4 inches deep 120 VAC in the flower beds.:no:

Worth

Ted do you mean florescent fixture ballast or CFL.
CFL is the designation for compact florescent light bulb.
Any standard screw in in light fixture will take them and my ceramic ones were very inexpensive.
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Both/Either of them. I got the feeling from the first post that expense was a factor. You know, that it's a case of "Watts per Dollar".

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My neighbor is going to kill someone one of these days.
He buried 12 AWG THN directly in the ground no conduit about 4 inches deep 120 VAC in the flower beds.:no:
===================================================

Worth, I think I'd try to get myself on his beneficiary list. I had a neighbor in New Hampshire who did the same thing to put lights in his flower beds. He lost two pets and almost his wife.

The conduit might not be enough of a difference if it isn't sealed at all ends.

Burying wire is more critical than most folks think. Here in this part of Tennessee, there's a little green grub worm that will eat the insulation off any wires it runs into. Ran into it back in the mid 80's and was rudely reminded last year with a repeat for my nephew.

Ron, if you're still reading with us, let us know if we've been any help.

Hi ..Great Response .Exactly what I need to bring me down to earth again .....I have tried to read and understand many articles on greenhouse lighting , it seemed that general opinion was LED was the way to go...Is a question of cost and availability as far as Metal Halide and High Pressure Sodium lights.

I did find two Power Supply Units on an HP server ...Rated at 47A each...I never considered that running 12V lights would use a lot more power than normal 240v CFL lights and that there would be a safety issue ...Due to the extraordinary freight cost North America is ruled out for me as a supplier so that leaves Asia via Ebay...

I do have 9 x 5 foot LED Floro tubes and wonder how these would go .....Rest assured I am reading all the responses and taking everything on board ...I actually grow my cuttings inside in an old freezer stripped of the motor etc inside my front room?? ..Its stainless lined so reflects the light.....I have Ceramic head bulbs under the trays and eight floro tubes overhead but they are T 8's ...I think T5's require another holder.....Thankyou Ron

There are countless companies selling LED grow lights, but the number of diode manufacturers is very limited; there are only a handful. Very few light-makers will tell you who made their diode. It's a sign of a reputable company if they will disclose that information.

[QUOTE=Cole_Robbie;551105]There are countless companies selling LED grow lights, but the number of diode manufacturers is very limited; there are only a handful. Very few light-makers will tell you who made their diode. It's a sign of a reputable company if they will disclose that information.[/QUOTE]

Cole I think one of the better companies is right here in Austin.
I posted the link someplace and I have no idea where or who it was.
They are doing some serious big projects in high rise grow systems.
Here it is Illumitex.
[url]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2xLPYtYrMAhWJMz4KHdExA_MQFgglMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.illumitex.com%2Fhorticulture%2F&usg=AFQjCNENmuNo7tswnM8knWT7qr4COaghxQ[/url]


Worth

A great idea to maximize grow space with less light is using light movers or light track, basically you purchase a HPS or MH grow light fixture that mounts on this device, it is basically a moving track that the grow light housing is afixed to. The ballast still sits on the ground but you gain a lot more grow area while pulling a lot less electricity. you spend less on bulbs, less on electric but still have significantly more grow space.

[QUOTE=Jonnyhat;553122]A great idea to maximize grow space with less light is using light movers or light track, basically you purchase a HPS or MH grow light fixture that mounts on this device, it is basically a moving track that the grow light housing is afixed to. The ballast still sits on the ground but you gain a lot more grow area while pulling a lot less electricity. you spend less on bulbs, less on electric but still have significantly more grow space.[/QUOTE]

Thankyou ...I welcome any info ....I must look it up... Regards Ron

Would a screw type switcher help at all with the power requirements? It's seems to me you could run all the LED's you ever wanted to with one. You could run the led lights at 12v for a much brighter display or @ 5v for a dimmer display. @ 12v they would burn out a little quicker but the led bulbs are mere pennies in the arcade world. They pop in and out of the old style fixtures with a push and twist.

[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Happ-15-AMP-Switching-Power-Supply-Arcade-Multicade-8-Liner-Games-/111914266505?hash=item1a0e9c2f89:g:IsIAAOxyKsZRvz5Q[/url]

[FONT=Arial]I’ve read all the posts of that thread with great interest, I’d just like to mention one or two tracks that haven’t been explored :[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]The more power you use the more problems you may get with heat. Adding more lights may mean moving them away from the seedlings making the extra lighting inefficient or you may have to add a fan.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Worth’s equipment is simple, reliable, efficient, not overpriced. You must be competent to undertake its wiring safely. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]As [/FONT][FONT=&quot]murihikukid is starting from scratch he could have a look at the latest techniques French growers use : [/FONT][FONT=Arial]20 '' long 7020 LED bars (10 bars are recommended = 8000 - 10000lux). The cheapest ones should be avoided, as well as the cheapest Chinese transformers which are often short lived, the safest solutions are found with computer transformers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Safety problems have been stressed : don’t play with 110 /220 VAC if you are not qualified. With a low voltage watch the number of amps, select the right size of wires and a transformer with a big safety margin. Keep us posted when you have made up you mind. And built your nursery !

[/FONT]

Hi...My friend in Canada that being honest I totally rely on contacted me the other day on Skype and he went through the posts and he is going to contact one of his friends about issues raised ..I am hoping this will be soon ?? I have my fingers crossed....
Meantime I will point out that my idea was not for seedlings but to supplement the light in my greenhouse...I live at the bottom of the world and we never had a good tomato summer.Yes it may well be my Tomatoes are not ripening due to heat issues but I feel light is also a big factor...Now its the end of the season here and I have been hit by blight etc so all I can do is try and ripen what I have , plan ahead and up my game for next season ...There are so many conflicting opinions out there on the internet re lighting ....I showed my friend the two Server PSU's I bought ...the 12V rail is rated @ 47A on each and he said they were perfect ...
I have nine 230v 5 foot LED T8 Tubes in reserve which I could use but as I have already pointed out ..it seems to me there is no definitive opinion particularly on colour temperature although it seems to me that one needs lights to cover the spectrum of what natural daylight is...and LED's looked perfect for this and I had access to reflecter units (free) namely car headlights ....It never occurred to me that the wires would be a problem......My friends initial idea was to get a complete Fusebox/ Harness/lightswitch in fact everything from a car and with Relay switches etc a safe circuit could be put together ...At this time just normal car headlight bulbs were in the design but then LED Headlight bulbs at a cheap price and available for the different sockets and in a wide range of Kelvin became a much better option ....
Anyway I am so inept at this that I still cannot get round the issue of how a few 12V LED's used in a car and fed by a 12v battery has no problems yet the same bulbs when put in a greenhouse and fed 12V via a 240 Power supply unit /transformer becomes apparantly an insurmountable problem ...I can only put this down to (at my age) inadequate schooling which I know was my own stupid fault... Keep the comments coming as I am really loving these... Regards Ron.....

Hi....OK I may have had a stroke of luck..I came across these lights ...there maybe over 20 of them undamaged ?? they are 80W bulbs which is pretty low...I wonder what trype they are?? each has a transformer inside ..I was allowed to bring one home to take photographs of so I am hoping for a response by morning NZ time to enable me to talk turkey with them re price etc ...
I presume my photos will establish what they are and if any good for a greenhouse ...they have metal cases with a clear lens but some len's are broken ......as are some bulbs ..I presume one can buy new bulbs but can one put a higher wattage in them ...
Thanks Ron..

Don't buy them. They are Mercury Vapor. It's the lowest efficiency of the high-intensity lighting types.

It's not that they won't work - they will - but you will burn a lot more energy than is necessary. A metal halide or high-pressure sodium would be much better. Some old indoor fixtures like those are metal halide. You can find HPS bulbs used outside for security lighting.

They are junk ready to start a fire.

Worth

Hi..Thank you very much I get the message ..I now know what a MBF Lamp is.....the fittings could be worth more than scrap value...with the transformer removed one could put CFL Bulbs in them but I will talk to the scrap owner re what he wants to do with them....Thanks Ron

[QUOTE=murihikukid;553434]I live at the bottom of the world and we never had a good tomato summer...but I feel light is also a big factor...There are so many conflicting opinions out there on the internet re lighting ....[/QUOTE]

I don't think there are conflicting opinions about lighting on Tville, only different approaches by quite reliable experts.
As you live "at the bottom of the world" you may be interested by a study published by the University of Alaska - another place" at the bottom of the world". It was updated in 2014 and will give you the basics, course 101, about lighting etc. Good luck !
[URL="http://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/anr/HGA-00336.pdf"][FONT=&quot]http://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/anr/HGA-00336.pdf[/FONT][/URL]


Best regards

Muhirikukid must still be thinking hard about choosing the right equipment for lighting his tomatoes I'll just suggest a track to explore : if the lamps are not a good choice their sockets look in good condition and are easy to fit on any kind of frame. I can't say anything about the wiring, it would be safer to use new wires. A fast calculation of the price of new sockets would show him how much he could resaonably pay the scrap dealer.

Hi..Exactly....I have stripped one and will be taking it back to the scrap metal depot tomorrow to weigh the alloy content ..That will determine his asking price ...I presume the transformers may have some copper in them but if I can get the housing/reflector /E27 socket and even the bulbs at a price above alloy scrap .......I will be on a winner and so will they....The alternative for them is that they just get crushed whereas I pay cash and they are gone and not lying around ...I am buying CFL bulbs (most new) from a charity shop for 50c to $1 each every week and if I do use these in the next Tomato season I will have proper housings for them ...Regards Ron

Ron I have pulled engine parts from metal yards at the price of the scrap weight.

Look on line for price per pound for scrap metal this will hep you.
No way are you going to be able to separate the copper from the transformers without way too much work.
Right now in the US transformers are going for about 20 cents a pound.


Worth

Hi..You have misunderstood me (they can have the transformer and the other round thing clipped into the housing) I will "allow them" a margin above scrap for the alloy housing ..They are good to me and I know they have to get a return on anything I see thats been dumped on them and I want to buy...Its just incredable what I see there......The reflector and the bulb socket is probably of no value to them and of course I require them if I use the housing for CFL or LED lighting...The mercury bubs?? Well they might sell on NZ's auction site..Seeing I will have to dismantle everything they (the bulbs) may give me a small return for my time....if not they will be destroyed..
They are a wrecker ..a sledge hammer or crusher is their screw driver ..I understand this but I do not mind stripping things to get a good deal .....EG Car headlights?? or Alloy light housings etc.

Regards Ron

PS I think I have some Scottish in me???

Hi....It has been suggested to me that I could use 2 x 12V Batteries ( together ) with a ripple battery charger to run say 4 pairs of headlights .... Would that be feasable?? Thanks Ron

PS sad to say the Scrap Metal merchant has completely closed down ....So thats the end of getting steel ,headlights etc ...

[QUOTE=murihikukid;557008]Hi....It has been suggested to me that I could use 2 x 12V Batteries ( together ) with a ripple battery charger to run say 4 pairs of headlights .... Would that be feasable?? Thanks Ron

PS sad to say the Scrap Metal merchant has completely closed down ....So thats the end of getting steel ,headlights etc ...[/QUOTE]
Ron 4 pairs is 8 headlights.
I dont think a small battery charger is going to put out enough power to charge a battery to run one light much less 8.
I see what you are talking about but I would think you would need more batteries.
Plus a strange effect, a bank like that is only as good as the weakest battery.
They would also have to be deep cycle batteries to handle the discharge time while they are on.

Remember that is an unbelievable amount of amps coming from a bank of batteries.:lol:
You can always give it a try and see what you get isfyou have the stuff already on hand.

Remember just to toss out a wild number.
If you have two 12 volt batteries hooked up to make 12 volts and both are 1000 amp batteries you will now have 2000 amps.
If you hook them up to make 24 volts you will still have 1000 amps.
You can cook some very big wire with either one.

Worth