pH needs to be lower
 

Yes, I believe I have a pH problem. In the beginning of the 2016 season, my hand held tester (hard to read) showed slightly above 7. A soil test shows a pH of 7.6, way too high IMO. I did have some blossom end rot but not a lot & I credit Tomatotone & TTF for that.

Anyhow, any suggestions as to how to lower the pH by next season? Michigan State (who tested by soil) recommends 2.5lbs per 100 sqft for loam soil, 3.9 for clay loam. I got no clue if my soil is loam or clay/loam but it's not clay. Seems loamy maybe.

So I have 750 sqft. Does 22 lbs of sulfur sound about right to try & spread evenly? Should it be tilled in? Any special sulfur I should use? Is there a better way?

Analysis below & attached is the complete analysis & recommendations. I likely will be bugging people more about fertilizer come next spring. =)

Thanks in advance!
Joe S.

Phosphorus (P) 100 ppm
Potassium (K) 321 ppm
Magnesium (Mg) 1184.7 ppm
Calcium (Ca) 7573 ppm
CEC 0 meq/100 g
Soil type ORGANIC
Soil pH 7.6
Lime index 0
Organic Matter 22.4 %

Your pH is high but 22 lbs of sulfur sounds like a lot to me. Last year I tilled in 12 lbs of Espoma sulfur into my 900 sq.ft. garden and it dropped my pH from 7.2 to 6.8. pH changes slowly so definitely till in the sulfur so that it can break down.

Your amount of organic material is also very high meaning that materials are still breaking down and adding nitrogen to your soil. Since Nitrogen is so volatile, many labs do not even test for it and just give generic recommendations for adding it. I attached a document discussing Nitrogen that you may find helpful.

I would not be adding any fertilizer with a soil test like that one. Your P and K are already off the chart. I would just address the pH issue.

I'd anticipate a drop in pH after you've fertilized, and perhaps why MSU had not flagged pH as a problem.

My source water is around 7.5 pH and after bringing it to correct strength with NPK, Cal, Mag, pH in the solution drops into an ideal range 6.2 to 6.5

I was about to address the same subject, Ricky.

Bruinwar, what is the water pH? How long have you been growing in this location? (I.e. how long have you been watering the garden with tap water?)

As I understand the general geology, Michigan is on granite, so the aquifers should tend acidic, but your situation way be quite different.

PH matters because every nutrient the plant needs has a range in which it may be absorbed. Get outside that range, and you will have nutrient deficiencies. The "perfect" ph is the number where most of the ranges overlap. However, other variables that affect nutrient uptake include organic matter content, humates, and having an overall healthy soil biology, with rich bacterial and fungal life. The better your soil is, the less perfect you have to be on ph. In fact, if your plants do not display nutrient deficiencies, your ph is fine, regardless of the number that it tests.

Do the soil and water in a jar test to see what kind of soil you have.
Just shake it up and let it set till everything has settled.
You can look it up on line.

Worth

Probably not necessary but I'd till in 8-12 lbs of 90% elemental soil sulfur with optional 4 lb Ammonium Sulfate and plant winter rye with some hardy legume(s)

Having very high pH here as well, it is good to follow recommendations from your soil testing group who know your area. We begin with 8.4 pH and with a recommended 3 Pounds of elemental sulphur per 100 sq. feet we dropped to 7.9.

The higher the pH the more difficult it is to lower it. Remember, soil tends to revert back to the original state so we have to reapply every 3 years or so.

I've got 8.5, grow a hundred varieties each year and my tomatoes grow very well. High ph is NOT a problem.

The key is not letting your plants read any book telling them were they can grow or not.

Wow! Thanks everyone for your replies. Sorry for the delay in responding. Work gets in the way of life. Let me attempt to respond.

ilex: Thanks for the info on nitrogen. The recommendation from the soil lab was to add nitrogen but I am thinking no.

Cole_Robbie: This is a rented plot, many gardeners did show some problems, some worse than others. I had some blossom end rot, not a lot but enough to be concerned.

dmforcier: "What is the water pH?" Good question. This location (rented garden plot) has ground water. I will have to check the pH. This is my first year at this location. Previously it was gardened by the food pantry that owns the site. They decided not to run the garden anymore & allowed the local organization to rent it out in plots. All I know for sure is no tomatoes were grown in the area I rented (plot 6!). I play on moving to another plot (plot 8) that had no tomatoes growing on it this year. The people that had it are not returning. I obtained two soil tests from each site & they were nearly identical.

Worth1: Thanks for that link, I will try it!

decherdt & PaulF: OK, if I do decide to add sulfur, I will be be conservative. Adding the winter rye sounds like a good idea.

ilex: No kidding, pH that high & no problems! No gardening books near my plants.

The blossom end rot I experienced was minor but I am concerned. Other gardeners at this location suffered much worse problems. There is enough nutrients in the soil so it should not have happened. It was a dry summer & I controlled the watering until early August. I will check the pH of the water & post here again.

Thanks again everyone!
-Joe S.

Blossom end rot shouldn't be ph related. It won't get solved by changing ph.

I would grow plants and see if they show any problems. If you have adecuate nutrients, I would not touch it, other than adding organic matter.

I am a believer in giving plants the pH that they prefer. Yes, plants may grow in an unfavorable pH but they will grow BETTER in one that they like and the flavor may be different too.

Healthy and happy plants are also less susceptible to pests and disease in my opinion.

Native soils in some areas of the country can have either a higher or lower pH than is preferred by tomatoes but remember that tomatoes are not a native plant so it makes sense that we would have to adjust soil pH to give them optimal conditions for the best growth and flavor.

[QUOTE=brownrexx;596418]I am a believer in giving plants the pH that they prefer. Yes, plants may grow in an unfavorable pH but they will grow BETTER in one that they like and the flavor may be different too.

Healthy and happy plants are also less susceptible to pests and disease in my opinion.

Native soils in some areas of the country can have either a higher or lower pH than is preferred by tomatoes but remember that tomatoes are not a native plant so it makes sense that we would have to adjust soil pH to give them optimal conditions for the best growth and flavor.[/QUOTE]

Ok, and who says which ph they prefer? Who says what is optimal? Is it practical without side effects to change it? Raising ph is easy, lowering is not so easy. Most plants are not fussy at all regarding ph and will grow anywere out of the extremes. I think tomatoes fall in this category. Soil life will also let plants push the official limits. Yes, not everything will grow under 5 or over 9.

My plants look happy and healthy to me, and I feel they must be pleased as most of my tomatoes taste quite good. I mean, I don't think I would get some non-cherries with brix over 10 if they were not happy.

I've seen the same issue with orange trees. Books saying it's impossible to grow them over X ph ... and then, you go to Valencia region in Spain, and everybody has higher ph than that. Should they start adding sulfur like crazy, or forget about the book?

Before playing with soil, I would analyze plant leaves and see if they are missing anything, and then, study if changing ph is the answer. The only safe thing I would do, is adding organic matter.

If it were me I would try to get it down to 6 to 6.5 it is my garden and it is your garden you can do with it as you wish.
My raised bed soil was up in the 8's and it wouldn't grow worth a hoot and it had everything it needed.
As soon as I dropped the pH the plants jumped out of their skins.

Worth

It is well known that tomatoes will grow under various, and not so ideal conditions. However... yields, and quality does improve when we correct environments that are not ideal.
Some studies in circulation have been around for a long time, you can follow the recommendations or not. I have been the casual gardener, and harvested nice tomatoes, but when I tried perfecting the crop, my yields exploded, no comparison.
My well water is 8.2 pH, my fertilizer helps to drop it some, and I use Phosphoric Acid to bring it down to 6.2

I think I agree with [B]ilex[/B] on this one. First diagnose the plant. The effect of out-of-range pH [I]should[/I] be poor nutrient uptake. If you don't see a nutrient deficiency, then you really don't have a problem.

Now, does that mean that growth will be optimal? No. But the man is dealing with a rental plot over which he has little control. Good growth and good yield will be good enough.

From what I've read over the years, calcium uptake becomes limited when pH is high. I really have no other explanation for the limited amount of blossom end rot that occurred. Conditions were nearly perfect other than some extreme temps in June that appeared to cause some blossom drop. Dry weather & nutrient rich soil.

This past season was the highest yield for me. The only issue was very little early harvest, then they all came at once & I couldn't keep up! The end rot was rare but it did happen. Next year I can almost count on it not being optimal weather & I want to do all I can to improve my odds. 2015 was almost a total loss. 2014 wasn't that much better.

This past year I switched to a completely new organization & location. I actually have more control over my plot. Unlike the old place, they do not move the plots around & I have access to it off-season. The only drawback (IMO) is it's strictly organic, so no daconil.

Thanks everyone for all your replies. I will likely spread some sulfur this week. It can't hurt, right?!

Regards,
Joe S.

[QUOTE=Bruinwar;596488] The only drawback (IMO) is it's strictly organic, so no daconil.

Regards,
Joe S.[/QUOTE]

It funny that you should say that. I am an organic gardener and I have never used any daconil and my tomatoes are very productive and good tasting. I have never had a plant die of disease except for Late blight near the end of the season if it is a damp cool August. I don't know if daconil works on Late Blight because I know nothing about daconil.

One of the things that organic gardeners believe is that a good healthy soil will allow the plants to be as healthy as possible and more able to fight off pests and diseases. Optimal pH helps the plants to be as healthy as possible and not struggle to live in less than optimal conditions. We pretty much do not spray anything preventatively. We treat problems if they occur.

Bruinwar you say that 2014 and 2015 we almost a total loss and you do spray daconil so what do you think caused the losses? Obviously it was not for lack of spraying.

Note: from reading on this forum I have learned that gardening in the South brings another whole set of foliage disease challenges so I might have to garden differently if I lived there but I don't so no sprays needed here.

I was just at Wal-Mart and they had 8 lb. bags of Espoma sulfur for organic gardening so I bought 2 of them at $2.50 each. They would normally be about $10 each.

They also had Espoma Tomato Tone and garden Tone for the same price if anyone is interested.

I don't think calcium is the most affected by high ph. I would think about iron first, for example. In fact, a lot of calcium will rise ph. A few elements can be the reason for a given number, so you need to know why you have that ph.

Too much sulfur can be a problem. That's something to keep always in mind when trying to lower ph, as that's always a short term "solution".

The best way to "fix" any soil is organic matter.

An old time agronomist told me a long time ago that it is more important to look at a complete balance rather than concentrate on one or two different parts of the puzzle. He told me to pretend that a 5 gallon bucket was balanced on a small fulcrum dead center at the bottom of the bucket. The bucket was sectioned off with all the components for good growing their size comparable to how important they are to fertility. Too much of anything would make the bucket tip over and likewise too little of something would do the same.

N,P and K have the largest sections, trace elements have smaller sections, pH has a section, weather, sun, rain, etc., etc. A good balance is what keeps the bucket upright. He had a pie chart that showed what was on which side of the bucket so that some parts offset other parts to keep a balance. I only wish I had paid closer attention or had a copy of his chart, but alas he is long gone and I am not sure it is still in existence.

I still shoot for balance and rely on soil tests to help.

Well here is my opinion, take it or leave it.
According to the soil experts tomatoes prefer a lower ph than what ou stated you have. Usually around 6.4-7.2 That does not mean you cant grow in higher or lower ph. It just means that is optimum. Certain nutrients that tomatoes like will be locked up at higher and lower ph ranges. One biggie that comes to mind is potassium. Potassium gives us overall plant health.
As for the BER. It has been my experience that BER is not helped much by high calcium, which you have plenty of by the way. Instead of focusing on calcium, i would instead look at early plant issues you might have. Meaning when the plants are young. Are you setting your plants out when its cold? Are you staking young plants against wind damage? Things like that. You mentioned the plants eventually outgrow the BER. Try to notice if you have certain varieties that are more prone to it. Take those off your grow list and replace with others that handle early stress better.
if you go to the trouble to send in a soil test, i believe i would follow the recomendations of the lab to balance your soil.
Just my 2 cents :)

Go right to page 5 if you are not interested in nutrient requirement for tomatoes, I read some information on this thread that is questionable. You may also cross reference this at Hydo-Gardens. I hope this helps avoid confusion.
[url]http://www.haifa-group.com/files/Guides/tomato/Tomato.pdf[/url]

Geezz I don't know where to start here. I certainly did not mean to start such a lively debate.

AKmark, thanks for the PDF. Great info there.

Barbee, there were extreme temps in June, hot & cold. The plants were well supported. The BER was rare & was mostly on my ARRGs & some others but it never actually outgrew it.

ilex, you might be right about what is affected by high pH, I just go by what the experts claim. You seem to do find with high pH.

brownexx, in 2014 I went organic. Not that I am blaming the disease on that, it was a tough year. 2015 was a total loss, the plot was loaded with blight & IMO there was no stopping it. It rained nearly daily in June & early July, was cold & the disease had set in when the plants young. Organic or not, crop rotation is the main prevention recommendation from every single guide I've read. So I moved to a new location & plan to a new plot in 2017. I am not necessarily against growing organic & really don't want to debate it. However, fungal diseases are very difficult, prevention is the key & daconil is the #1 prevention method used worldwide for decades. in 2017 I will continue to treat in advance with organic applications.

Thanks for the tip on the prices at Walmart.

All papers I see agree on a recommended or optimal ph range for optimal crop and quality. What I didn't see is studies of tomatoes grown at different ph, and for different reasons. I'm sure they are out there. I don't know what the effect of non-optimal is. I mean, it's not the same getting a 1% crop reduction than a 90%. What are the real effects?

Many modern hybrids seem to have higher and different nutritional requirements than old varieties, so that could be part of the answer as I only grow old varieties, most very local. I also think than Mycorrhiza is also part of the answer. It can change conditions a lot at root level.

In summary, I think that a certain optimal ph is not a requirement. It's just a piece of a much bigger puzzle . It might affect production, but I'm sceptic about its effect on quality. Maybe it's like when you grow tomatoes in salty soil, quality improves. Or it might reduce absorption of some elements, but if they are plentiful they compensate.

Bruinwar, no need to debate organic vs conventional. I am not an activist. I only offer suggestions on how organic gardeners do things for information that may interest or benefit others. I am extremely happy with my organic gardens but I would not presume to tell others how to garden. Organic gardening has taught me a lot about the chemistry of the soil as well as pathogens and insects.

In fact, just this morning, at the Organic Gardening Community Forum that I frequent there was a link to a really good article on soil testing. It is from North Carolina but I think that the information is quite pertinent to this discussion as it deals with pH in detail.

I especially like the chart about nutrient availability at various pH values.

[URL]https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/a-gardeners-guide-to-soil-testing[/URL]

I think that pH can be quite important whether you garden either organically or conventionally.

As for fungal disease, yes it can be devastating but I have had good success with preventative pruning of the lower branches and mulching with straw to prevent splashing of soil and spores up onto the leaves. Crop rotation is also important and at the end of the season I remove all of the old mulch which probably contains spores and I burn it.

Cool, damp weather can be a killer for preventing fungal disease. You may want to pick up a pack of Actinavate next year. It is organically approved and it seems to help. I have only been using it for 2 years but I read about it from a New Jersey poster who swears by it.

I also make sure to plant a couple of hybrids (like Big Beef) that are resistant to disease in case my heirlooms succumb to it.

[QUOTE=ilex;596580]I also think than Mycorrhiza is also part of the answer. It can change conditions a lot at root level.[/QUOTE]

If we throw in a mention of humates, I think you hit the nail on the head in reference to why gardeners disagree about topics like this one. Everyone's soil biology is different.

We had lots of wood ash on some of our ground. I learned that peat moss has a pH of about 4.0 (which is very acidic). So, we amended the soil with peat moss (I mixed it with the soil well) and it worked out great. Much safer and faster than using sulfur.

One of the big things with high pH is manganese deficiency. I wouldn't bother adding extra manganese, though. Just add peat moss. It's extra organic matter, too.

A high pH sometimes means there's lots of calcium in the soil (wood ash and rockdust are high in calcium). Adding extra nitrogen to help balance the calcium may be a good idea in some cases.