whats the big deal about leaf shape.
 

i have seen many post about leaf shapes and I just don't get it. I can understand the interest fruit shapes and color as that is matter of eating and looks.
Leaf shape of which i believe from reading here and elsewhere there are five basic types.
What does it really matter what a plants leaf shape is?
I mean really what proven differences does leaf type add to the mix.

The big thing is that it is characteristic of a particular variety, just like fruit shape and color and size. If a variety is regular leaf, and you end up getting a potato leaf, you no longer have the variety you thought you did - you either have a cross or a mix up.

It really is only of interest to those who want to know what they are growing. If one is not concerned with the variety, then it is indeed extra information.

Opinion from a Novice:

Obviously for identification; distinguishing between varieties. (Can't confuse Silvery Fir Tree with Lime Green Salad with Anna Russian with Glacier if your seedlings get mixed up.)

I've heard some say PL offers disease resistance. Perhaps that has been proven??

Again, identifiable traits in the case of accidental crossing.

Lisa

In areas of heat and hail the leaf differences can be more than cosmetic. When afternoon thunder boomers hit the garden ,the only unscathed fruit is generally on the PL and small , determinate varieties. The wind doesn't beat them up as bad either.
Also more leaf camouflage from chickens and children.

Jeanne

Mark,

If you don't get it when it comes to leaf shapes for different varieties then it says that you personally aren't interested. Which is fine, as I say, to each their own.

And you have seen and I assume read, the many threads about this as well as the FAQ at GW.

Some folks, like myself just love to grow PL ( potato leaf) varieties.

Why? For one thing most varieties are not PL, they are RL ( regular leaf), so that makes them different from the get go. I get all excited, I kid you not, when I first grow out a new variety that someone has sent me and it turns out to be PL.

In addition to just liking PL's b'c they are PL's, I find that they often, but not always, have a heavier foliage cover than do RL varieties, and thus when foliage diseases do hit, there's always a bit more backup foliage on the plant.

In addition, I find that most PL vareties I grow are more tolerant of the four common foliage diseases. So that at the end of the season whereas most of my plants are down and out, the PL ones are still green and thriving.

Not everyone has had that same tolerance to foliage diseases that I've seen, but it's another reason why I like them.

I've speculated that the leaf epidermis with PL's might be thicker than with RL's but have no data or proof at all, just visible observation after maybe 20 years of growing PL and RL varieties.

So that's PL and RL varieties.

Next is Rugose foliage, where the leaves are pleated and puckered and usually a deep green, and not that many varieties do have rugose foliage. Most of them are dwarfs or determinates, depending on how one defines those two plant habits.

And again, it's strictly a personal preference in growing them, but they too seem to be more tolerant of foliage diseases, in my experience.

Next would be angora foliage where the leaves are fuzzy and have a gray/green cast to them. Again, not that many varieties have angora foliage and I find that the fruits of most of them are not that tasty and also have said that I consider them to be novelty types in that regard. Most folks just getting into growing heirloom try one or two just b'c they are a novelty and they want to see what that foliage looks like.

But to see the sun glinting off that angora foliage is a treat and my favorite angora variety is Velvet Red, aka Angora Super Sweet.

Pure wonderful curiousity in what leaf types one grows, which I'm glad to see.

And the last of the five types you referred to but didn't list would be variegated foliage, which in terms of varieties that can be grown from seed, b'c most reqire vegetative propagation, are the newest kids on the block.

And the one I know best and listed in the SSE YEarbook and also made seeds available to folks at GW last year is called simply Variegated and by some in Europe as Variegata.

SSE sold plants last year and this year is also selling seeds. And by now I'm sure that seeds have been widely distributed so that some commercial places are also offering seeds for Variegated, I mean other than SSE.

The fruits are surprisingly good tasting, not great, but good, for again, what I call a novelty type, and the stems and partially ripe fruits also show variegation as well, but that variegation lessens in high heat. The partially ripe fruits show wedges of green near the stem end which disappears as the fruits ripen full red.

So the five you referred to are:

Regular Leaf (RL), with many variations
Potato Leaf (PL). with some variations
Rugose
Angora
Variegated

And the big deal you refer to is simply the personal choices of those who prefer to grow varieties with those leaf traits for whatever reason.

I guess my question to you, mark - why is size such a big deal for you (if I remember correctly, you tend to like to grow big veggies). I have to say that my interest in size is akin to your interest in leaf shape.

To each their own.

mark, you've asked me in another thread how to discern the taste of a tomato. If you don't know what a tomato tastes like, then none of us can tell you. You've asked another, who nicely mentioned tomato rankings, and you were cross with that, too. Other threads as well.

Now, you've asked what a potato leaf is. If you haven't figured that out yet, again, none of us can tell you. A potato leaf looks like a potato leaf. And a tomato taste like a tomato. Try both.

If you grow tomatoes, as you say you do, and if you want to be a nice guest on this forum, then do it. A tomato is a tomato, taste is taste, the sun rises in the east, it sets in the west. Learn those simple things. I hate to say this, but you, above all, seem to like to provoke trouble here. I saved the best words.

M, Carolyn, and Craig have been pretty nice so far. And so have I.

Now shut up and plant! :wink:

Don

I am always looking for pl types. I find myself looking in the sse book for just that. It seems my favorite tomatoes are mainly pl. -Rena

don you are misquoting me i asked how do you determine real tomato taste. There is big difference between the two.

carolyn It not that i am not interested. I see alot statements and no scientific proof about qualities people atribute to different leaf types.
Your leaf thickness statement should be easy to test.
As for the resitance statement it should be easily to test.
Also i thought you did not beleive in desease resistance.

nc so you assume all incorrect leaf shapes are crosses and leave not room for mutation?

montanamato i don't buy that one since I have had both pl and rl survive well though hurrcaine force winds with my cage design and noticed no difference in leaf or limb breakage amounts.

Mark,

Comparing your original post at the top, to the one just above. I have to wonder, if your first post was a leading question.


It is obvious from your last post that you know a lot about tomatoes, probably more than most people. However your first post if you take it face value, is a statement of curiosity. Here is how I initially interpreted your statement. "Hey what's the deal with leaf shape? Does it really make a difference? Help me understand what the difference is."

After reading your last post I get the feeling that you know [b]exactly[/b] how you feel about leaf shape. You know exactly the difference between them. You have a definate opinion about them.

My question to you is this: What is your purpose in posting THIS thread? I don't know your history. I don't know you from GW. I only know you from this one thread. So I am only discussing this one thread. Why did you post this one thread?

Was it:
1. To learn from the opinions of others?
2. To show people how much you know?
3. Other.

I wanted to find out if there was any real difference in leaf
shape when it came to end result that was based on
real science and not opinion. Most of responce if got where
opinion though experence which is not wrong but not what I was looking for.

C, can you pass me a nerve pill while I read on?

D

Fair enough, Mark. So your answer is 3. Other.

You do not wish for Opinion or to show how much you know. You wish to find scientific answers to your questions. I can understand that, I like definative answers to things. I disllike it when people espouse opinions as facts.

So when you were asking your original question, you were asking only for an informed scientific answer? An absolute truth that could not be debated?

You seemed to say that most of the responses are only based on "experience" not science. You don't want that? I can understand that, I hate going through 30 posts to find the real answer I was looking for. If that truly is the case, may I suggest that when this is the case you state that in your original question? Something along the lines of "No opinions please! Only informed scientific facts need reply."

That will make it easy for me and others to know if we are wasting your time in replying to your thread with our "personal experience"

Thanks!

fair enough tim

Thanks I will be looking for it in your posts!

Potatoe leaf tommys taste ten times better than Regular Leaf. There ya go :D

And that's my scientific opinion based on empiric evidence after and to the fact too. Only Stupice is the exception - it has a cheek even calling itself a tomato. And I have proof and evidence from my neighbours who both have PhD's in Factual Analysis and good taste buds and they agree - but then they are a bit opinionated.........

mantis I am not about to take the word of someone who exaggerates like you do.

mantis your eyes really bug me out.

I only exagerated once on GW about the size of a Delicious tomato LOL.

MarkFeron, do you know the difference between
a "sympathetic" and a "pathetic" character???
If not, let me shed some light.
A sympathetic type:
is one whom people wish to help because his
problems or condition are no fault of his own.
A pathetic type:
is one few wish to help because most of his
problems are of his own creation.

Many of us are curious about the state of your
postings and your mindset. Is there a mean spirit
to your approach to others, or prehaps just a
difficulty you may have with communicating with
others? Not wishing to be cruel, just helpful....JJ61

I've tried to decipher some of this in four different languages, using every grammar and spell checker I can find, and so far have found no meaningful purpose in any of it. Looking for irrefutable scientific evidence to substantiate my opinions. I have a team at Harvard on it now. I doubt they will have much luck with it either. Give me another nerve pill.

Wow...Very deep. I rarely comment about other people's posts. I won't this time. However, I will give you my opinion on gardening. It is my opinion that hobbyist gardening should be fun. It should also be a learning process with timelines determined by the gardener. I started planting tomatoes, after being in school for almost 25 years (K-M.S. degree=5-30 years old). I really needed a break from the "scientific". I just want to have fun in my little garden. I also want a kitchen full of fresh tomatoes to share with friends and family. That's it; nothing more, nothing less.

The day that gardening stops being fun, I quit. That said, there are people that want to take the fun out of gardening. I just don't know why. Maybe, he or she needs a hug.

If emperical studies are needed, the related information should probably be sought out by the requestor's local university system and/or agribusiness companies.

Yes, I would love to learn more about the different types of tomato leaves. Unfortunately, this topic has strayed. I understand that we are not all at the same gardening experience level. For those of you with more experience, please be patient. If you have information or opinions to share, please do so in a nurturing way.

If you are trying to collect emperical data from Tomatoville members, I am sure that you could find volunteers for your [i]future[/i] project. As a rule of thumb, most of the members here are always willing to help.

On a positive note, I would like to thank all of you that have helped me learn more about tomato gardening. I really appreciate your help.

Kindest Regards,

Angelique

The voice of reason pipes in!

Thanks A!

Did I understand that you just retired from teaching? A great way to spend a life. Wish I had done it.

Don

Hi Don,

Thank you. :lol: Sorry about the confusion. No, I did not just retire from teaching. I started tomato gardening after I completed my M.S. Management of Technology. To make a long story short, I was in school from 5 to 30 years old without a break (I just turned 34). After completing my education and years of being a [i]workaholic[/i], I realized that I did not have any steady hobbies. I have a long list of things that I want to learn how to do, including:

Learning how to Salsa dance (I really have two left feet) :oops:

Learn how to cook pastries better

Learn how to veggie garden. At this point in time, flowers don't interest me yet. :D

Learn how to sew (I can only sew buttons and hems)

Learn how to paint (I had a really mean art teacher in 8th grade that told me that I would never learn how to paint).

Learn an instrument (maybe drums. My dad played the drums when I was a little girl. That's one of the only memories that I have of him)

Don't worry, I don't plan on learning all of these things today. I may shorten or add to the list as appropriate. :P Life is short and I want to try as many different things as possible.

Cheers,

Angelique

PS
I was in a teaching credential program. Taught under a temporary credential for a year. Then I went into the telcom industry for 4 years. When the company downsized, I tried to go back to the teaching program. With the No Child Left Behind Act, I would have had to take 7 under division classes just to be readmitted into the program. :roll: What would have taken me 1 or 2 years to accomplish will now take 3 years...Too bad.

i found it odd that some people can not stay on topic and try to make impolite personal comments and question the motives of the poster..

The reason I started this post was I wanted to hear real info and reasonable well observed info on this topic and not comments that have no relevance to the subject. The answers I got from those who commented on the relevant subject. Was that leaf type has no bearing on the outcome of the fruit in any meaning full way.


For those of you who made comments that had no relevance to the subject i suggest you take it elsewhere.

Neat, A. Sounds like your husband will have his hands full! All your choices are good ones.

At one point I had only a few basic goals in life. To be a good Christian, to be a good husband, to be a good fisherman, to be a good gardener, and to be a good writer. I've been a failure by my standards at almost all, but I keep trying. I learned a long time ago, that no matter what it is, if someone has a clean passion, that keeps the life spirit going. We all have to have it. Tomatoes are my newest adopted love, and it's a good, clean, game. I've raised them a few years now, but not on the level I'm striving for now that I am meeting people like you. Loving it here where I can learn new things. I'll be an Heirloom guy before it's over!

Thanks for the reply.

Don

don try sending a pm instead of post off topic on threads in the future.

MF, If you truly wanted to know about leaf forms and their impact on fruit, you would have done your homework first. Why haven't you been to the TGRC site to look at their photos of about 30 leaf forms? Why are you wasting everyone's time asking meaningless questions?

Here's my meaningful answer. At this point in time, you are clueless. You are the least on topic person around here.

Leaf form has little relevance to flavor. Flavor has little relevance to leaf form. Total leaf surface area however does have a relationship to flavor. On average, potato leaf plants have more leaf surface area therefore on average, potato leaf tomatoes tend to have better flavor. It might have something to do with most potato leaf varieties being indeterminate and by their nature, indeterminates produce more leaf cover.

Get a clue. Be polite to others.

Fusion

Of the 27 replies here on, basically, "what does a potato leaf have to do with a tomato," only Mantis dared to tackle it in a common sense way by saying:

"Potatoe leaf tommys taste ten times better than Regular Leaf. There ya go."

That's what he said, and he gave a true, on topic, direct answer to your question, as requested, and then you insulted him by saying: "mantis I am not about to take the word of someone who exaggerates like you do. mantis your eyes really bug me out." You insulted his answer, basically called him a liar, and then even insulted the eyes on his avatar!

In the last few hours M has posted a warning right at the top of the page for you. Another of your repeated threads was deleted. Much of your gibberish has been ignored. But you keep on. You've insulted me, I think, five times in three days. Now, I give a polite reply to angelique, and that made you mad, too.

Mantis said a potato leaf is characteristic of a superior tasting tomato. Simple as that, and that is his opinion, and there is no empirical scientific evidence to substantiate it. No one can offer that. We can't explain taste to your specific satisfaction here. Or looks. There are pictures of potato leafed tomatoes on the net. A tomato tastes like a tomato, a potato leaf looks like a potato leaf, and I am a frustrated person trying to be nice.

Mark, we are not mean or unreasonable people. We are very patient people. We just don't understand some of the things you ask, the way you ask them, the replies you expect, and your paramaters are so tight that no one could possibly answer them to your satisfaction. We are tomato growers, not scientists, and that's the way we like it. I'm not trying to be short with you at all. We just can't seem to find a way to answer what you ask, in the way you want it.

Leaf form is only one of many characteristics of plant culture. I am totally new to this, but even I understand that a potato leaf is characteristic of certain varieties, and even I've seen them, at least, on the net.

I have one nerve pill left. Please don't make me use it.

Most cordially,

Don

and good night angelique...where ever you are...