The Huge, Glaring Problem With Determinates!
 

Nobody says whether a determinate has a concentrated fruit set or produces all season. Without this information, how can one ever select a determinate?

I mean, it's a REALLY BIG DEAL if your plant is going to produce for 2 weeks or 3 months! :panic:Why is this the best kept secret ever? Anyone who considers growing a determinate has to know one way or the other. Yet tomato descriptions rarely specify.:evil:

Sometimes seed sellers will say "produces over a long season", or "has a concentrated fruit set", but I have not seen ANY sellers describe the production of more than a few of their determinates. :x

I was trying to research a suitable determinate with concentrated set for my 2018 garden. It's maddening how far I had to go to find out length of production for each tomato considered. :?:

Does everybody else just not care how long a tomato will produce? How does anybody ever buy determinate seeds or plants?:shock:

If there is a way to find out the production time of determinate tomatoes, please let me in on the secret!

Frustrated,

Nan :?

I planted rows 1 week apart last year, and learned a lot!

PCMG, how did you find out it was a concentrated-set plant?

Nan

Nan I think you're on the right path with the Heinz tomatoes you're growing this year. That's the problem with growing paste tomatoes, not all are ripe at the same time.

I think all determinate tomatoes have a concentrated fruit set in that they bloom, set fruit and ripen them within a time frame of a few weeks and are pretty much finished although a few will set a second flush after a rest if the season is long enough and the plant doesn't succumb to disease first. Many determinates are actually quite late to mature as well in my experience. There are lots of great determinate varieties bred for the home gardener. Most commercial tomatoes such as the Heinz ones for example were bred not for flavor, they were bred to be mechanically harvested as processing tomatoes. productive,red, round, hard, tart with tough skins in my experience. the Heinz factory just needs something red to add the sugar, salt and vinegar to. the first ingredient listed is tomato paste, perhaps they still make their own paste, hard to know.
Fruit set and production though will vary from one determinate variety to another like all tomatoes and will be affected by weather and other growing conditions.
I hope the Heinz ones are good for you Nan. If not, I can send you seeds for some other very good red determinates
KarenO

From what I understand, determinate just means that the end of a branch ends in a flower cluster and not a vining tip. Most determinates I have tried have a harvest window of about 3 weeks or so, but others crank out all season. I don't know if that is what seed companies might mean by "semi-determinate."

Nan, what I've found about DETs is that they are actually Semi DETs at best.

I am opinionated. I won't grow anything but IND. anymore.

OK, so I'm not the only one who has this problem. Salt, I'm with you. When I want a long-producing tomato, I stick to indeterminates because anything that says "determinate" is almost impossible to find out the production time. I end up ignoring good tomatoes that way.

Here are a few varieties Tania calls determinate that my research says are long producing: Aurora, Carmello, Danko, Glacier, Hanky Red, Marglobe (2 months), New Big Dwarf, Patio (2 months), Sioux, Walter. And nowhere on the Internet can I find the production time for Early Wonder. It must be classified Top Secret. Maybe one day Wikileaks will publish it...

:rant: Sorry if I'm ranting or whining or both. Does anyone know a good way to find out how long a determinate produces? (please don't say "grow it yourself"!)

Nan

It varies Nan. What variety specifically are you researching?
If you are asking how long does a standard definite determinate plant produce ripe tomatoes I would say again average over about 3 weeks in my experience and usually at the end of the season ie late August/ September . That’s me, a home gardener picking ripe tomatoes.
Commercial field producers of tomatoes, who grow for processing do not concern themselves with niceties such as ripening. They would purposefully not allow them to ripen but would mechanically harvest at mature green stage and then gas them ripe all at once. Tomato Flavour is not much of a concern nor is quality.
I think you will find the DTM on most any available tomato variety. If so, add about 3 weeks for first to last ripe. No plant I have ever grown ripens all if it’s fruit simultaneously.
KarenO

I actually agree that there is no way to determine how long or over what period of time they bare or is it bear? fruit. I grew BHN 589 (D) in my hightunnel this year. I picked fruit almost all Summer. I grew Pink Cupcake (D) last Summer in one and I got TWO distinct crops. I didn't have time to pull and get rid of them after they quit producing in the early Summer. I just left them alone and got another very nice crop much later. I grew Red Deuce this year also and they were caged and had fruit all summer long. I grew big dena in between them expecting a better crop since they were indeterminates and was sorely disappointed with their production but it could have been my lack of knowledge and crappy drip tape this year. I kept finding holes or no working emitters. poorly watered and fertilized.

[QUOTE=Nan_PA_6b;673311]OK, so I'm not the only one who has this problem. Salt, I'm with you. When I want a long-producing tomato, I stick to indeterminates because anything that says "determinate" is almost impossible to find out the production time. I end up ignoring good tomatoes that way.

Here are a few varieties Tania calls determinate that my research says are long producing: Aurora, Carmello, Danko, Glacier, Hanky Red, Marglobe (2 months), New Big Dwarf, Patio (2 months), Sioux, Walter. And nowhere on the Internet can I find the production time for Early Wonder. It must be classified Top Secret. Maybe one day Wikileaks will publish it...

:rant: Sorry if I'm ranting or whining or both. Does anyone know a good way to find out how long a determinate produces? (please don't say "grow it yourself"!)

Nan[/QUOTE]

You added the don't grow it yourself line after I first read your post this AM.

There are several definitions for what a determinate might be that were mentioned above.

Not everyone grows their tomatoes the same way as to inground, staking,containers, etc., that's just one variable. When you see a report you don't know what the season was like when that report was given.

How do you determine if a variety is indet or det? You look at the internode distances, and then of course there's semi-determinate.

So yes Nan, I am going to suggest that you answer your own question by growing whatever with your conditions, since what YOU think about this or that variety is what matters to YOU personally, not what someone else has reported.

Best I can do for now,

Carolyn

[QUOTE=Nan_PA_6b;673311]OK, so I'm not the only one who has this problem. Salt, I'm with you. When I want a long-producing tomato, I stick to indeterminates because anything that says "determinate" is almost impossible to find out the production time. I end up ignoring good tomatoes that way.

Here are a few varieties Tania calls determinate that my research says are long producing: Aurora, Carmello, Danko, Glacier, Hanky Red, Marglobe (2 months), New Big Dwarf, Patio (2 months), Sioux, Walter. And nowhere on the Internet can I find the production time for Early Wonder. It must be classified Top Secret. Maybe one day Wikileaks will publish it...

:rant: Sorry if I'm ranting or whining or both. Does anyone know a good way to find out how long a determinate produces? (please don't say "grow it yourself"!)

Nan[/QUOTE]

Marglobe is definitely long-producing. I've grown it three years running; here in zone 6a, it produces from late July/early August through frost, but the late-season fruit size is smaller. Marglobe can grow into sprawling behemoth of a plant, but it's a tomato machine and I'm very fond of it.

I'm trying Glacier in 2018, since it's supposed to do well in the Northeast; it's supposedly Semi-D, bears all season, and good-tasting.

I share the frustration with the Ind./Det./Semi-D labels. I once had a Roma (Det.) plant churn out a second flush in early October. I've also had an Indian Stripe (Ind.) give up the ghost by the end of August. Average first frost here is Oct. 15.

You didn't mention why you are looking for determinate. Or what
you were hoping to find. A big blaster pumping out fruit over a
shorter time frame for sauce?

Yet I suppose the frustrating search is the main reason for the rant.
(information not as clear as expected)

Did not realize Carmello, Glacier, and Sioux were listed as determinate.
I did give them three strikes, three seasons. (Sioux maybe once)
They must be listed as ind or semi most places. I only grow ind.
All three were a disappointment in flavor for us.

In my short growing season every plant pumps out fruit mid August.
So I look for early mid-season, (not early-early-mediocre-just-so-i-have
-a-few)...by 4th of July.
I want good taste, quantity not important. A few like SunGold keep me
satisfied early. Now starting to grow some indoors for a jump start.

Maybe rephrase the question to 'does anyone grow determinates and
have a variety that grows true to form...mid-season, lots of fruit over
a two-three week time frame?'. My neighbor only grows paste for sauce.
No interest in anything but sauce. Thick boil-all-day sauce.

I know, I know,...you just want some clear answers.
I'm not much help, :lol:

Karen & Oakley-
What am I looking for: I constantly investigate likely tomato varieties to consider them for future growing. My spreadsheet now has information on 700 varieties. The things I look for vary. My latest investigation was to find a concentrated-harvest determinate to kick-start the soup making for 2018 (Heinz 1439). But there are lots of different types of tomato I look for, for many different purposes: good fried greens, tart plus disease resistance for my sister, productive & strong tasting for mum, a shapely heart to use in a cross, a tasty long keeper, a tasty stuffer, a container dwarf, and whatever else I need.

Nan

Nan, if you ever want to try Porter tomatoes - I have plenty of seeds. They were developed to grow in the Texas heat, but the way it's been hot in summer up north the past few years - they would probably grow and produce fine for you in PA. They are an IND. pink cherry tomato used for eating fresh off the vine, juicing, canning, sauces, etc. They are very balanced taste-wise, and are my wife and my first favorite tomato. Just don't over water them.

Thank you, Salt, although my must-try list is too long already. I've read good things about Porter; it's in the spreadsheet. Haven't noticed any plants struggling with the heat here (yet), but the good shelf life, shade & drought tolerance are attractive.

Nan

Carmello and Sioux are not determinate in my experience
 

[QUOTE=oakley;673347]You didn't mention why you are looking for determinate. Or what
you were hoping to find. A big blaster pumping out fruit over a
shorter time frame for sauce?

Yet I suppose the frustrating search is the main reason for the rant.
(information not as clear as expected)

Did not realize Carmello, Glacier, and Sioux were listed as determinate.
I did give them three strikes, three seasons. (Sioux maybe once)
They must be listed as ind or semi most places. I only grow ind.
All three were a disappointment in flavor for us.

In my short growing season every plant pumps out fruit mid August.
So I look for early mid-season, (not early-early-mediocre-just-so-i-have
-a-few)...by 4th of July.
I want good taste, quantity not important. A few like SunGold keep me
satisfied early. Now starting to grow some indoors for a jump start.

Maybe rephrase the question to 'does anyone grow determinates and
have a variety that grows true to form...mid-season, lots of fruit over
a two-three week time frame?'. My neighbor only grows paste for sauce.
No interest in anything but sauce. Thick boil-all-day sauce.

I know, I know,...you just want some clear answers.
I'm not much help, :lol:[/QUOTE]
I grew both Camello and Sioux and they were ind, not determinate. Carmello had a different taste than the usual red tomato but it was good. I also made oodles of tomatoes even in inhospitable ground with minimum sun. Sioux produced all season, too and had excellent sweet flavor.

I've been wondering the same thing as you, Nan!

My requirements are a short bush plant to grow on my front yard, plus I'd like it to produce for as long as possible. I've grown Bush Champion for two or three years, and it's supposed to be a determinate. It has produced for me all season - from early August till hard frost - early to mid October. It has fulfilled my requirements. But the taste is, well, not that good.

I'm looking for other varieties, but have run into the same problem as you in that it's not clear whether they produce once only or all season. I was thinking of trying Rosella Purple. Anybody with experience growing this?

[QUOTE=Salaam;673875]I've been wondering the same thing as you, Nan!

My requirements are a short bush plant to grow on my front yard, plus I'd like it to produce for as long as possible. I've grown Bush Champion for two or three years, and it's supposed to be a determinate. It has produced for me all season - from early August till hard frost - early to mid October. It has fulfilled my requirements. But the taste is, well, not that good.

I'm looking for other varieties, but have run into the same problem as you in that it's not clear whether they produce once only or all season. I was thinking of trying Rosella Purple. Anybody with experience growing this?[/QUOTE]



I would suggest almost any of the dwarf varieties from the Dwarf Project for a plant that would fit your needs. I grow Rosella Purple every year because the flavor is usually outstanding, though production may not be huge. Production is ok, just not overwhelming, but that flavor makes it well worth my garden space.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Farmer Shawn, do you know if all of the dwarfs in the Dwarf Project are long-bearing?

Nan

[QUOTE=FarmerShawn;673886]I would suggest almost any of the dwarf varieties from the Dwarf Project for a plant that would fit your needs. I grow Rosella Purple every year because the flavor is usually outstanding, though production may not be huge. Production is ok, just not overwhelming, but that flavor makes it well worth my garden space.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Thanks Nan for posting the question. I too have the same question.

My Roma and San Marano came into bearing at the same time, after a long rainy spring became a 2 m drought, and the massive number of fruit pulled over every staked plant. As I remember Roma is det and San m is indeter. Harvested both at the same time , for same length of time.

I would grow both, but will limit myself to the first packet I find.

So both Roma and SM are long-bearing? I'll update my list.

Nan

the determinates I've grown produce a 2nd harvest, and in some cases a 3rd. If you feed them aggressively it helps to increase the size of the second wave, you can also ignore size and dry farm the 2nd wave. Helps to improve the flavor on those marginal ones

Wow, Gerardo, that's another confounding variable. BTW, does anyone know how New Big Dwarf produces? Is it a constant production or flush after flush?

Nan

Gerardo, the same happens here. The best example I have is Bradley. On some sites it is called a Determinate, and other sites call it Semi-Determinate. It grew and produced as you would expect a Semi-DET variety to produce. We were very happy with the taste, but the shelf life was but a few days.

Nan, from my experience, Campari F2 have a very long shelf life. Japanese Pink Cherry also does. Carolyn told me that Japanese Pink Cherry used to be a hybrid. Neither are Determinates, but both produce a lot of tomatoes, and have an even longer shelf life than the Porters I offered seeds for earlier in this thread. I could easily see the Campari F2s being used as a mild sauce or salsa tomato. The Japanese Pink Cherry is like most Pink tomatoes - eat um while you got um. I guess you can tell that my favorite tomatoes are Pink When Ripe.

[QUOTE=Salaam;673875]I've been wondering the same thing as you, Nan!

My requirements are a short bush plant to grow on my front yard, plus I'd like it to produce for as long as possible. I've grown Bush Champion for two or three years, and it's supposed to be a determinate. It has produced for me all season - from early August till hard frost - early to mid October. It has fulfilled my requirements. But the taste is, well, not that good.

I'm looking for other varieties, but have run into the same problem as you in that it's not clear whether they produce once only or all season. I was thinking of trying Rosella Purple. Anybody with experience growing this?[/QUOTE]

Rosella purple shines on the flavor front. Tasmanian Choc, although slightly taller, gets an enthusiastic thumbs up too. Gribovsky works great for me

Sorry, I got interrupted in r/l on that last post.

I have wondered about New Big Dwarf too. I couldn't grow it myself due to the soil diseases. Did you know that New Big Dwarf comes from the early 1900s?

[QUOTE=Nan_PA_6b;673971]Wow, Gerardo, that's another confounding variable. BTW, does anyone know how New Big Dwarf produces? Is it a constant production or flush after flush?

Nan[/QUOTE]

New big dwarf is a dwarf indeterminate. A large dwarf plant about 4 feet tall. I found it great tasting, late mid season. An ancestor of many of the dwarf project tomatoes.

Nan, the dwarf project dwarfs, like most indeterminate, have some early varieties,
mid season, and late. My limited experience, once they get going, continue rather
steady.

dPinkPassion was very early, one of the first, but succumbed to some disease.
dArticRose was not far behind and did well most of the season yet best production was early..
dTennSuited and
dKangarooPawBrown, both excellent in flavor, were both mid-late and steady
producers once the heat let up late August.
dArticRose is a cross between 'Budai Torpe' and 'Black from Tula', listed as a true determinate.
You could probably find pics and development discussions doing a search in the
'Grumpy' archives. 2010 maybe?

I also grew two dozen dwarf hunt, F2's, and F3's. What I like about the dwarfs is
the size. More variety tomatoes in such a small footprint. Self pruning, not bushy.
(except for dArticRose...semi-bushy)
A 25ft run a foot apart in one and 2 gal grow bags. I should note, on my deck, single
row, I had great airflow. I intentionally wanted more variety over big production.
2018 I will scale back quantity, larger pots, and concentrate on a few but more of each
variety. 6-8 Metallica, maybe 2-3 each of the others with great flavor.

Victory Seed supply has a good listing of dwarfs and good descriptions. Easy to
navigate. All in one place.

Not sure why there's a confusion. All determinates produce fairly concentrated crops, it's just some of them (most) will produce another concentrated crop later (and another one if your season is long enough).