Multiplying garlic with Bulbils.
 

Is planting bulbils as simple as harvesting the seedpod from the scape,then letting the seedpod dry a little and then replanting in mid to late Sept? I may use potting soil in those tote/storage containers like I did last season.I got some of bjbebs unknown hardnecks and I want to multiply my numbers so I don't lose this variety.

I'm also on the hunt for another variety.Something with some serious heat,and that keeps well.I have been looking around some,and was drawn to Turkish Red Giant,but am open to other suggestions if anyone has an opinion to share.I liked the Spanish Roja I had some time back,but they did not do well for me last year in this wet location.I will be moving to an environment that is colder in the winter,but less wet,so I am hoping that will aid my success.

Ideas?Opinions?

Turkish Red Giant sounds pretty awesome, and a good keeper too. So far, I'm finding the purple stripes to be the best keepers (but maybe due to being small bulbs I've been growing up).
[url]https://www.gourmetgarlicgardens.com/turkish-giant.html[/url]


Yes, most people are planting the bulbils in the fall, same time as garlic. Tiny ones can be broadcast and doesn't matter if they are upright or not. If I have larger ones, I space them out evenly and plant upright for best results. They are planted shallower than a large clove of garlic - I use the same rule of thumb: depth = 3X the clove height of soil above the clove.

Thanks for the help bower.

Is it necessary to dry the bulbils before planting,or can they be separated from the seedpod and planted into soil or potting mix? (2 of the seedpods have split already).Would you just cut the splitting seedpod off the stalk (scape) and then lay the seedpod on a paper plate to dry maybe?

That Turkish does sound good,but so does Bogatyr Metechi and Purple Glazer.How does one choose?...and at $29 for 2lbs, I can't do that many. lol

Paper plate sounds fine to me. If you leave them attached to the umbel in a cool but not damp place, that is probably the best storage situation to keep them until planting time.



I have never tried planting them immediately, so no idea what would happen, but it probably depends very much on your climate. People with severe winters have different concerns than people with wet winters or dry winters for that matter! :?!?: It's all bad enough, we don't even know what kind of winter to expect any more! :?

Here is an interesting trial of planting bulbils early, mid-fall, or late:
[url]http://snakeroot.net/farm/GrowingRoundsFromBulbils.shtml[/url]
Survival was worst for the latest planted ones, but the early planted tended to form tiny divided bulbs instead of rounds. You definitely don't want that, because it will slow down the process of growing up to full size. (clove size is tiny on the little bulbs, vs one large round acts as a single 'clove' and produce a much larger bulb).

Just keep in mind that it may take a few years to get from bulbils to full sized heads of garlic. Mine went from tiny bulbils planted in October to pea-sized rounds harvested this past July. I'll replant the pea-sized rounds in October and hopefully harvest larger round next summer. Hopefully the following year will get me some heads with clove separation. Good luck!

FWIW, I have only seen a bulbil go straight to a full divided bulb once, and that was a rocambole (Spanish Roja). In growing out purple stripes (Persian Star and Chesnok Red) and porcelains (Music, Argentina, Susan Delafield) and a bunch of other afaik marbled purple stripes, I have seen maybe three?? rounds that were split into two. Every other bulbil I've grown out has produced a single round in the first year.

So I suspect the issue of bulbils going straight to bulbs is variety specific, likely rocambole.:?!?:



Equally rare for me is the round that goes on to produce a bigger round... 99%+ of all the rounds I've grown out have produced a small divided bulb, proportionate to the size of the round.


I don't know if climate differences are a factor, but they could be so YMMV.



Varieties with few cloves per bulb will size up in a couple of years, because the small size of that first bulb is only divided by 2-4 cloves. (eg porcelains, some marbled purple stripes). The cloves for replanting are a good size, and the next year bulb is much larger.

The same sized bulb which has 8 or 9+ cloves (eg Persian Star, Chesnok) will increase in size more slowly because each clove is small. Those first cloves from the rounds were barely as large as the rounds themselves, for me. OTOH, these are great varieties to increase your stock from bulbs, because of the larger number of cloves. So if money is scarce to invest in bulb stock, you might factor the number of cloves into your choice of varieties.



Rocamboles are a special case, because they do have really large bulbils already. Even going to a divided bulb the first season, there is some increase in clove size cw the bulbil, and if they go to rounds they will be large enough to produce sizeable divided bulbs with nice size cloves, even though there may be 8-9 of them. And once they are full sized, a breeze to maintain or increase your stock using cloves, or the largest bulbils as well.


The only real down side to porcelains for us, is that you have to save 1/4 of your stock for replanting the same amount. So growing up stock from bulbils on the side is well worth it.:)

[QUOTE=Father'sDaughter;711047]Just keep in mind that it may take a few years to get from bulbils to full sized heads of garlic. Mine went from tiny bulbils planted in October to pea-sized rounds harvested this past July. I'll replant the pea-sized rounds in October and hopefully harvest larger round next summer. Hopefully the following year will get me some heads with clove separation. Good luck![/QUOTE]

I am aware of that,and it does concern me.I am getting older now and time is a real consideration.

[QUOTE=bower;711063]FWIW, I have only seen a bulbil go straight to a full divided bulb once, and that was a rocambole (Spanish Roja). In growing out purple stripes (Persian Star and Chesnok Red) and porcelains (Music, Argentina, Susan Delafield) and a bunch of other afaik marbled purple stripes, I have seen maybe three?? rounds that were split into two. Every other bulbil I've grown out has produced a single round in the first year.

So I suspect the issue of bulbils going straight to bulbs is variety specific, likely rocambole.:?!?:



Equally rare for me is the round that goes on to produce a bigger round... 99%+ of all the rounds I've grown out have produced a small divided bulb, proportionate to the size of the round.


I don't know if climate differences are a factor, but they could be so YMMV.



Varieties with few cloves per bulb will size up in a couple of years, because the small size of that first bulb is only divided by 2-4 cloves. (eg porcelains, some marbled purple stripes). The cloves for replanting are a good size, and the next year bulb is much larger.

The same sized bulb which has 8 or 9+ cloves (eg Persian Star, Chesnok) will increase in size more slowly because each clove is small. Those first cloves from the rounds were barely as large as the rounds themselves, for me. OTOH, these are great varieties to increase your stock from bulbs, because of the larger number of cloves. So if money is scarce to invest in bulb stock, you might factor the number of cloves into your choice of varieties.



Rocamboles are a special case, because they do have really large bulbils already. Even going to a divided bulb the first season, there is some increase in clove size cw the bulbil, and if they go to rounds they will be large enough to produce sizeable divided bulbs with nice size cloves, even though there may be 8-9 of them. And once they are full sized, a breeze to maintain or increase your stock using cloves, or the largest bulbils as well.


The only real down side to porcelains for us, is that you have to save 1/4 of your stock for replanting the same amount. So growing up stock from bulbils on the side is well worth it.:)[/QUOTE]

Very helpful post bower.I contacted a seller asking him what varieties he favors,based on my limited experience.I like the bold hot varieties...but again,I am not that experienced.He suggested Metechi,and then either Spanish Roja or Polish.

Feel free to share your opinion,as I can't really afford more than 1,unless he were to agree to sell in 1pound quantities instead of 2.I was leaning towards the Turkish that I mentioned in my first post,but based on the sellers suggestion,I have changed my mind in favor of the 3 mentioned above.I'd prefer a bigger planting...but oh well. :)

Any help is muchly appreciated.;)

Spanish Roja is a great garlic but it doesn't meet your criterion of long storage. They don't last as long as my porcelains, and the purple stripes seem to keep the longest.


Afaik Polish hardneck is a porcelain, that means "4-6" cloves. I'm only getting 4 cloves from most of my porcelain, and maybe it's growing conditions I don't know. Argentina was a robust, mostly six clove garlic when we got it but I don't think I had any more than five, and that's just the occasional one, nearly all are four. I must check how the farm stock is holding up re number of cloves. The reality though, IMO for a porcelain you can only count on four cloves most of the time, and that means replanting 1/4 of your stock. Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, maybe some varieties are consistently sixes but I just haven't seen it.


Metechi and your Turkish are both marbled purple stripes, which means they should have a few more cloves. They both sound good and tasty and good keepers, from what the sellers say.


If your supplier has both, ask him what the average number of cloves are for each of them, and if I were you, I'd take the one with more cloves, and use less of your harvest to replant.

[QUOTE=bower;711019]



I have never tried planting them immediately, so no idea what would happen, but it probably depends very much on your climate. People with severe winters have different concerns than people with wet winters or dry winters for that matter! :?!?: It's all bad enough, we don't even know what kind of winter to expect any more! :?

Here is an interesting trial of planting bulbils early, mid-fall, or late:
[URL]http://snakeroot.net/farm/GrowingRoundsFromBulbils.shtml[/URL]
Survival was worst for the latest planted ones, but the early planted tended to form tiny divided bulbs instead of rounds. You definitely don't want that, because it will slow down the process of growing up to full size. (clove size is tiny on the little bulbs, vs one large round acts as a single 'clove' and produce a much larger bulb).[/QUOTE]


Ive grown bulbils straight from the plant in late summer, some will grow straight away, others in spring. And yes i have found they grow [U]small[/U] divided bulbs a year later, certainly not tiny, about half the size of a normal grown bulb. Second year those small cloves will grow into normal sized garlic bulbs.

[QUOTE=Father'sDaughter;711047]Just keep in mind that it may take a few years to get from bulbils to full sized heads of garlic. Mine went from tiny bulbils planted in October to pea-sized rounds harvested this past July. I'll replant the pea-sized rounds in October and hopefully harvest larger round next summer. Hopefully the following year will get me some heads with clove separation. Good luck![/QUOTE]
Different soils and climate give different results i think. As i pointed out below my autumn sown bulbils grow small bulbs and those that pop up in spring will produce grape size round

What type of garlic are you growing, Richard? I take it they have good sized bulbils. :yes:
I suspect anything that sprouted here in late summer would have a hard time surviving the winter - but I could be wrong. Maybe this is exactly what I should try, too.... :) I have noticed that small bulbs that were missed in the field (dried down early) have no trouble surviving the winter. Same for some extras that I may have tossed in the compost... they came back as volunteers.


Meanwhile Tg is in Oregon so this is good news for him, for the milder climate.

I have harvested the umbels from the garlic I desire to save,and they are drying as we speak.

The seller I mentioned has not responded to my last 2 messages about the number of cloves produced on the varieties we were discussing.Some guys are legit,but if too many questions are asked,maybe they think the buyer is a goof or something.;)

Father'sdaughter has grown the Turkish I think,so she may respond with her opinion on that one.

Good info on planting bulbils Medbury Gardens.Forgive me for asking ( I'm a little slow don't ya know);),but you had good success planting bulbils late summer after they have cured and dried?How long does the drying process take on bulbils normally (all things being equal)?

Do you folks have a preferred source for planting stock and bulbils? Not saying $29 for 2 lbs is bad..Just wondering,especially for bulbils,as I can afford some of those.

TG

TG, I've looked at quite a few websites selling seed garlic - mostly to see what they say about one variety or another - and it looks to me like your price of $29 for 2 lb is a real bargain. Others are charging more.


The seller probably didn't call you back because this is the busy season. All the stock will be sold out really fast, so whatever you want you should go for it before you miss your chance. Or find a web seller near you that will sell smaller lots and get a couple of different varieties but you will pay more. Either way, don't delay because they will all sell out pretty soon.



Also you may have to hunt for bulbils now, most places ask to place an order for those in June before they cut their scapes.


In Canada and CAD I'm seeing $4 per bulb of seed garlic and also $4 per umbel of bulbils.
In US sites I see 8.50 USD for half or even quarter lb in some places. I suppose a quarter lb is about one bulb? :surprised:

[QUOTE=bower;711547]What type of garlic are you growing, Richard? I take it they have good sized bulbils. :yes:
I suspect anything that sprouted here in late summer would have a hard time surviving the winter - but I could be wrong. Maybe this is exactly what I should try, too.... :) I have noticed that small bulbs that were missed in the field (dried down early) have no trouble surviving the winter. Same for some extras that I may have tossed in the compost... they came back as volunteers.

Meanwhile Tg is in Oregon so this is good news for him, for the milder climate.[/QUOTE]

These are purple stripes i working with plus i'm playing around with getting my garlic to produce TGS. My climate would be similar also to inland Oregon

Well,I went ahead and put in my order Monday night.I ordered 2 lbs of the Metechi that he suggested based on the info I gave him.I also included a message saying that if he didn't mind,I would like 1lb of Metechi and 1lb of Turkish Red Giant,but that if he would rather not split the order that it was ok and just send the Metechi.

I received the order this afternoon (Thurs)!I reside in Podunk Ore,and it always takes at least 1 extra day to get most anything,so this order got here really fast. (honestly..I was shocked to see it this fast).

The bulbs were mostly large (I will admit there were a couple smaller bulbs of each variety) but I am quite pleased considering how affordable he was.

What I received was: 9 bulbs of Metechi.Total of 9 bulbs, 2 of which contained 7 cloves..5 bulbs that contained 6 cloves..2 bulb that contained 4 cloves.

Turkish Red Giant: 8 bulbs: 4 of which had 7 cloves,2 bulbs that had 6 cloves,1 bulb that had 5 cloves,and 1 bulb that had 10 cloves (although a bit smaller cloves).

Cost was $29 for the 2lbs.

Really excited to get these in the ground,and to get to try them next year!

Wooohoo! :)

His Ebay listing if anyone is interested:

[URL="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hard-neck-Garlic-Several-varieties-Spanish-Roja-Metechi-Polish-German/282609944349?epid=2168703780&hash=item41ccdd871d%3Ag%3A6j8AAOSw3J5Ze2bA&_sacat=0&_nkw=Spanish+Roja+garlic&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313"]https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hard-neck-Garlic-Several-varieties-Spanish-Roja-Metechi-Polish-German/282609944349?epid=2168703780&hash=item41ccdd871d%3Ag%3A6j8AAOSw3J5Ze2bA&_sacat=0&_nkw=Spanish+Roja+garlic&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313[/URL]

That's great, TG! You got 50+ seed per pound for both of them, and it looks to me that you should have no trouble multiplying those stocks from the bulbs.


Always nice to have two varieties instead of one, since the weather is different every year and will favor one but not always the other. :yes:

kinda late to the thread,

my experience with garlic bulbils is i keep them together in the clump and break them apart just before i plant them.
might not make much difference, thats just what i do.

large bulbils i plant a couple inches deep, and about four inches apart. the bulbils from my german hard neck garlic will produce smaller fully divided bulbs the following year.
crowding bulbils by planting them two inches apart is supposed to help produce larger rounds. i like the bulbs myself.

for smaller bulbils, they can be sown in a row close together without much regard for spacing. they will produce rounds the following summer which should be dug, and spaced farther apart. the small bulbils take about three years to size up. patience is required.
when planting the bulbils in the garden, mark the row, and it would be a good idea to keep the row mulched on both sides to prevent weed growth otherwise it is very difficult to find the little green blades of garlic growing among the weeds. it might be better to grow the tiny bulbils in a tub.
using bulbils to increase your garlic supply is smart, and very economical.
garlic is good.


keith

[QUOTE=bower;711964]That's great, TG! You got 50+ seed per pound for both of them, and it looks to me that you should have no trouble multiplying those stocks from the bulbs.


Always nice to have two varieties instead of one, since the weather is different every year and will favor one but not always the other. :yes:[/QUOTE]

I'll have a good start now.The 2 I just ordered and the Unknown from bjbebs.Really looking forward to seeing how these do next year!

[QUOTE=rxkeith;712053]kinda late to the thread,

my experience with garlic bulbils is i keep them together in the clump and break them apart just before i plant them.
might not make much difference, thats just what i do.

large bulbils i plant a couple inches deep, and about four inches apart. the bulbils from my german hard neck garlic will produce smaller fully divided bulbs the following year.
crowding bulbils by planting them two inches apart is supposed to help produce larger rounds. i like the bulbs myself.

for smaller bulbils, they can be sown in a row close together without much regard for spacing. they will produce rounds the following summer which should be dug, and spaced farther apart. the small bulbils take about three years to size up. patience is required.
when planting the bulbils in the garden, mark the row, and it would be a good idea to keep the row mulched on both sides to prevent weed growth otherwise it is very difficult to find the little green blades of garlic growing among the weeds. it might be better to grow the tiny bulbils in a tub.
using bulbils to increase your garlic supply is smart, and very economical.
garlic is good.


keith[/QUOTE]

Good to see you keith.

This will be first experience with bulbils.My horizons are being expanded here.Even if they don't all do well,some will,and that means I'll likely have enough. :)

Thanks for the advice.I figured that mulching would be necessary,and had already considered doing them in flats.

Getting excited already!

Trop

That is some cool info about bulbil spacing/technique Keith. :yes: I had a small bulb left in the ground (crowded) that separated and produced large rounds the next year. I would like to have a precise method for that, to get bigger rounds from small cloved bulbs. :?!?: Guess I need to experiment. :)

I now go the bulbil, round garlic route. I plant bulbils year one. then the round year two. then use the cloves for year three which for all intents and purposes is normal maybe a bit smaller but hard to discern.
1 August 2018 Pulled Garlic
Posted on August 1, 2018 by Durgan
[url]http://durgan.org/2018/July%202018/1%20August%202018%20Pulled%20Garlic/HTML/[/url] 1 August 2018 Pulled Garlic
Garlic was pulled for storage about 100 bulbs. The roots were loosened by using a fork. The plants were then tied in bundles of about ten and hung in the shed and greenhouse to thoroughly dry.This garlic was grown from second year rounds and are about the same quality as when the main crop cloves are used for planting. The scapes are left on,since I do not use them. Also some bulbils are required for next years crop. Also the scape left on appear to make for larger bulbs contrary to popular opinion.

27 July 2018 Garlic for 2018 Planting Season
Posted on July 27, 2018 by Durgan
[url]http://durgan.org/2018/July%202018/27%20July%202018%20Garlic%20for%202018%20Season/HTML/[/url] 27 July 2018 Garlic for 2018 Season
Two row of rounds were planted in October 2017. They are now mature and produced about four cloves per round. These cloves will now be planted in October 2018 and will produce normal sized garlic bulbs in July of 2019. Sequence is plant bulbils (seeds), Rounds, Small bulbs, Then normal sized garlic. Bulbils>Rounds>Bulbs>Normal sized Garlic.
The small bulbs were pulled and place in a warm spot in the shade in the greenhouse to dry for planting in October 2018. This sequence means the full garlic crop is used, not necessary to save some for planting , also the new garlic is disease free.

5 July 2018 Garlic Rounds
Posted on July 5, 2018 by Durgan
[url]http://durgan.org/2018/July%202018/5%20July%202018%20Garlic%20Rounds/HTML/[/url] 5 July 2018 Garlic Rounds
A row of garlic rounds were harvested and set to cure for 2018 October planting. New garlic is usually produced from planting cloves from normal garlic. The method of using bulbils and going through the process to get normal bubs in about three years means more of the current crop can be sold and the new crop is disease free since it is from seed (bulbils).
The rounds are harvested a bit before the main harvest, since the tops have essentially died off.
The bulbils produce rounds the first year, when the round are planted they produce a small bulb with around four cloves in the second year. When these cloves are planted they produce normal bulbs maybe a bit smaller but more than acceptable.

So here are some pics of my bulbil umbels as of today. We have a really short season so in the past I've tried several ways of growing bulbils from cut scapes, this time I kept them on the plant in the field after the others were harvested, and then lifted the whole plant with scape and hung them in my unheated porch to slowly mature. I had to put some collars around the umbel once they started to open, and yesterday I cut them off to bring inside, since the stems were yellowing and become hollow, and since the temperature at night is getting close to freezing now in the porch. They have formed skins on the bulbils which I found scarce especially with porcelains from cut scapes, and I'm hoping these will really cure properly with a nice skin on now that they are indoors.


It was interesting to see the bulbs on these are not necessarily smaller than what I harvested, since I left them longer in the field. All the bulbs which I trimmed afterwards are nice and hard and perfect quality afaict. So nothing at all was lost.


The first three are Bonavista (unknown variety) Music and Argentina. Porcelains. IDK about Bonavista but I think it is a porcelain based on the bulbils. They are just a bit larger than Music and Argentina, and the bulbs have a creamy wrapper color a little different so it's not entirely similar but porcelain it seems to be, early and large.


The fourth one is Kostyn's Red Russian, and these are much better bulbils than I got from cut scapes last year (first year growing up from bulbils). You can see how much rounder they are and different from the porcelain, a Marbled Purple Stripe.


Next are Persian Star and Chesnok Red, the purple stripes. The bulbils are very pointy compared to others, they have that characteristic at least PS does. Chesnok Red was one that didn't get a collar, and I'm wondering if that is why there are not better defined skins forming. This has been an issue for me with the porcelains in the past, that they made nice bulbils but no skins on them.

Last one Spanish Roja with nice red skins and large bulbils. When the scape split first, there were no skins on them but slowly developed. My cut Spanish Roja scapes didn't get eaten so they also made bulbils, and nearly as large as these - mostly they made fewer but almost as large.
So goes the experiment for this year, hoping to see nice skins and a perfect cure soon...

my spring planted garlic did not do well. i didn't think it would. i only got a few useable bulbs. i had about a dozen of my german hard neck come up from last years bulbils that i apparently missed. the bulbs were very large, plus i have some marble sized bulbils that i will be planting to rebuild the garlic stock. i did not expect the bulbs to be that big leaving the scapes on. it was a pleasant surprise.



keith

Keith, I'm really glad you didn't lose your seed stock and can rebuild it. It sure sounds like a great variety, that can make it through the bad winter, floods etc that you guys have suffered this year, and still produce large bulbs and big bulbils. :yes: Definitely a keeper.

I posted in the mmmm swap thread offering bulbils but had no response, so I thought this might be a better venue since it receives quite a bit of activity. I have an envelope of mixed, obviously hardneck bulbils which I am sending in to Tormato shortly. I was wondering how many people would be interested in them so I can package accordingly. PM or give me the thumbs up. There are no takers as of now.[U][/U]

- Lisa