An interesting breeding possibility
 

I have a tomato variety that can survive temps down to 22 degrees fahrenheit.

I have several tomato varieties that are precocious flowering.

TGRC has a tomato with the ft gene that induces fruit set at temps as low as 40 F.

My thought is to cross the three and over a period of about 12 generations try to develop a tomato that can survive 22 degrees, flower as a very young plant, and set fruit at temps as low as 40 degrees.

So what use would it be? Well, we all love to have ripe tomatoes as early in the season as possible. With a variety like this, it would be possible to move the season back as much as 4 weeks so instead of getting ripe fruit in early June, I could have ripe tomatoes in early May.

There are a lot of possible problems though, it might not be possible to combine all the different genes.

DarJones

It almost never gets down to 22F here. So could this be a perennial temperate (mediterranean) climate plant? It would need to have some resistance to fungal diseases, or else be grown in a hoophouse or greenhouse to shelter it from the winter rains.

But the important question is, how do the 3 varieties taste? Are any of them worth eating? (See Hempel's Rule.)

Color me interested.

I'll bet our two Alaska members (Sherry AK, akgardengirl) would be interested. Ami

Dar - if you need volunteers for cold weather testing ... I'm here ... 8-):dizzy::cute:

Wouldn't you know that the first question is "how does it taste?"

One of the varieties will be a selection that mother nature made for me in 2007 when an unusual April 7th freeze killed 5000 plants.... and left a small handfull of one single variety alive. It happens to be a decent flavored tomato.

The precocious flowering variety is kind of magicians choice. I could use Kimberly, Bloody Butcher, etc. These are not fabulous, but they are decent flavored.

I won't know what the TGRC variety tastes like until I get a chance to try it.

If you think this through, tomatoes that mature in cold temps do not develop the flavor of fruit that matures in warm temps. What I am speculating can be bred is a tomato that rolls back the spring planting date by 4 weeks but which would mature fruit during warmer weather so the flavor would be decent. From what I see so far, it looks feasible. As for using it as a perennial in mild climates, that should also work, but will require some effort to incorporate disease tolerance.

DarJones

Count me as a volunteer, Dar, to test cold tolerance and help growout F2's and so on!

A tomato that can tolerate 22 F may even survive overwinter in my unheated greenhouse. We do not get extreme low temperatures here due to the ocean effect on climate. Our coldest temps are around -12 C, and not usually for more than 2 weeks in a year (January or February). Instead we have a freeze-thaw cycle that repeats multiple times in every month of the year, and the typical winter lows are a few C below zero. But we don't get much sunshine in a normal year either, so year round there's a need for cold tolerance, even in the greenhouse. There is also a lot of variation on a year to year basis - severe crop losses in 2011 for example due to a very cold and wet summer. 7/10 cultivars I trialed that summer did not produce more than a fruit or two. :no:

I am always looking for cold tolerant tomatoes to trial, and gathering the genetic material for breeding purposes. Might I ask whether there is any seed for the 22F tomato to spare? I would be happy to return you 100's of saved seeds to maintain your fresh stock, in exchange for one seed to grow out in my greenhouse (closed, no pollinators). 8-)

If you develop the cross, I'd be willing to try it. Our spring features warm days and hard freezes at night. I hate not being able to plant out until the end of May, 14+ hours of daylight. At the other end of the season, it would add a month. July 2012 the average high was 25 C (77 F) and the average low was 14.5 C (58 F ). There is a lot of variability in our summer temperatures from year to year, actually day to day.

Dar,

Sounds fascinating, and it sounds like your "22 degree" variety alone could be very valuable. Are you going to sell the seeds? I would be interested.

That's a very interesting possibility Fusion. It might even make tomatoes a reasonable commercial crop here in Oklahoma. The main reason it is so hard is the cold fronts. But the majority of the year is relatively warm and sunny. Until the killer heat finally hits. For example this year I got a freeze that killed off all my Tomatoes even earlier than most people up north. But it was only 30 degrees and frost. One day and all my tomatoes were gone, with at least another month of warm weather hitting as high as the low 80's later. My peppers didn't die and continued to grow quite well. So a tomato that could survive a freak freeze here in Oklahoma could actually extend the season 4 months here. 2 in the spring and maybe even 2 in the fall. Possibly even more but like you said, winter quality would likely be dramatically reduced.

That's an awesome find Dar!

interesting a cold weather tomato... the possibilities

I am so looking forward to the outcome! It is a very interesting project. Having a tomato surviving temperatures below freezing is already a breakthrough.

Exciting possibilities! I echo the previous comments - am especially interested in the hope of extending the season by a few weeks both early and late.

Although I live in 9b currently, that will not always be the case. It would be very nice indeed to have a tomato variety that is ultra hardy. For that matter, it would be genuinely fun to see if I could have maters more or less year around! Weather here very rarely gets down to 22F. On the other side of the equation, it does get quite hot in the summer.

How awesome would it be to "Plant tomato's" for a winter crop? Truth be told for me to be extremely interested, it would only need to have "as good as" your average super-market tomato "taste". I would *MUCH* rather eat a tomato mid-winter that I personally grew, than pay for a store bought one that I have no idea how it was grown.

Now for Summer varieties, I want a tonne of good old fashioned tomato flavor. But at that point we are talking about two entirely different "aminals" <--:)

Interesting project, Dar I wish you the best success.

For those who are hoping this might extend the season in the fall, please be aware that even if the vine could handle 22F, the tomatoes on the vines would be spoiled by a hard freeze.

Maf,

It is possible that the tomatoes themselves are also more resistant to cold temps. After all, all flower and fruit parts are simply modified shoots and leaves.

[url]http://www.beyondwilber.ca/about/plantmorphology/plant_morphology.html[/url]

[QUOTE=maf;312852]Interesting project, Dar I wish you the best success.

For those who are hoping this might extend the season in the fall, please be aware that even if the vine could handle 22F, the tomatoes on the vines would be spoiled by a hard freeze.[/QUOTE]

That's not an issue here. The issue is having 90 degree weather and a cold front comes along and drops the temp to 30-31 degrees just barely for long enough to kill your tomatoes, then the temp climbs back up into the 80's for weeks after. It is a real pain being right on the border of the climate zone between warm all year, but on a flat plain that releases heat so fast and allows a cold wind to chill things almost instantly. The air is typically so dry there is no humidity to hold the heat. Just a degree or two of cold resistance would make a HUGE difference.

The same type of thing happens in spring too. Usually not quite as bad due to spring rains adding moisture but still happens. You could be in shirt sleaves for weeks and even spot the rare bikini top now and then, then here comes the late cold front out of the blue killing everything, then right back to warm weather again.

If I didn't have to worry about the odd cold front, I could easily plant February 1st. As it is now I typically plan on March 1st and cross my fingers. (and have some plastic ready at a moments notice) Most people even wait longer just in case.

Problem is if you wait till it is totally safe you then need worry about the dreaded heat wave in summer that hits just about the exact time your tomatoes should be at their peak setting fruit. Top it all off with fighting the swarms of mice gophers rats squirrels and even insects that don't normally even like green tomatoes, but eat a bite or two out of each one just for the moisture......:?:

So you are basically d'd if you do, and d'd if you don't.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;312857]Maf,

It is possible that the tomatoes themselves are also more resistant to cold temps. After all, all flower and fruit parts are simply modified shoots and leaves.[/QUOTE]

Very true Fred, but the tomato fruit is thin skinned and watery which is not the ideal design for surviving a hard freeze. I will accept that the fruits of such a plant may be slightly more cold tolerant than regular tomatoes, but I think it is unrealistic to extrapolate the 22F from the young plants in the spring and to assume the fruits could endure similar temps.

What other types of fruit can survive the freeze/thaw cycle and carry on growing? I don't know of any soft fruit that can tolerate frost. My experience of fruits that can survive frost is that they are leathery, dry, tough, small berries, mostly not regarded as a food source by humans.

Very true. But we can dream...

and we can call it the super duper yooper mater




or something like that



keith

I would also be interested in helping with a growout. We often have snow and nighttime temps in the 20s in May and sometimes into early June. I realize that I would need to protect them from the snow, but if some combination of Walls O' Water and/or protective cloths might work. It's intriguing and definitely worth exploring!

Cool! (pun intended) But by the time it gets to be 22 degrees I am about tomatoed out for the year. It takes a couple of months to get recharged for the next growing season. But the project sounds really interesting. Good Luck.

Tomatoed out? Heresy!

When I read that...I thought the very same thing! Heresy!!

Moderators,

Please place Paul on double-secret probation.

Actually there are a plenty Russian amateur and commercial tomato varieties to survive at -7C (19,4F) and even lower at -14C (7F).

The most popular (in Russia) extreme cold tolerant amateur tomato varieties were bred by Saraev P. from Russian town Orenburg: Stepnyak, О-33, I-3 or Iyunskiy-3, Gruntovyi, Limonchik, Sibiryak, Orenburzhets, Kemerovets, Spiridonovskiy etc.

I've tried Spiridonovskiy, Kemerovets and I-3. They were really cold tolerant at least at about 0C.

More reading for Russian speaking enthusiasts abour Saraev tomato varieites: [URL="http://sadoved.com/3798-saraevskie-tomaty-zamechatelnoe-nasledie.html"]http://sadoved.com/3798-saraevskie-tomaty-zamechatelnoe-nasledie.html[/URL]

Mea Culpa! Usually from hard freeze (late October) to seed starting (the first week of March) I rested, researched, dreamed, planned and purchased. Now that I teach a class for the local community college and for a 4-H group on starting plants from seeds, my down time is about 30 days. This year all my tomatoing has ended this week. In order to have planting sized tomatoes ready for the February classes it begins again in a couple of weeks. So take a deep breath along with me. Just think what it would be like if I tried to do the really hard stuff like breed new varieties. Heretical? Yep, I guess so. Sorry.

Andrey, do you have access to seed of some of the cold tolerant varieties? If so, please PM me if you would be willing to ship me a few to trial.

Thanks,

DarJones

Andrey, is the 'Gruntovyi' you mention different from 'Gruntovyi Gribovskiy'? I have seeds for that one and it is supposed to have good cold tolerance; just wondering if it is the same?

Robot translated text from Andrey's link ([URL="http://sadoved.com/3798-saraevskie-tomaty-zamechatelnoe-nasledie.html"]http://sadoved.com/3798-saraevskie-tomaty-zamechatelnoe-nasledie.html[/URL] :
[QUOTE]Sarajevo tomatoes: a remarkable legacy


Spring frosts in many areas there are up to June, and often early planted tomato seedlings die. Help avoid this kind of Orenburg breeder Paul Sarajevo, which for decades led the work on breeding tomatoes for resistance to cold.
The main thing - the wind and moisture
Cold-resistant varieties can be planted seedlings much earlier than usual and, respectively, before a crop. And the use of film shelters accelerates ripening and significantly increases productivity. However, speaking of Sarajevo resistance varieties to frost, you should know that this is only possible at low humidity (dry air) and windless weather.
For a long time scientists advised growers evening and night watering as effective against frost. Similar recommendations are found in the literature and now, but this is false. Everyone knows that a man in wet clothes is much colder, especially in windy conditions.
Evaporation causes cooling fluid, and along with it - the cooling of the body. Hypothermia can be even at zero temperature, if increased humidity. Wet surface gives four times more heat than dry.
Gardeners necessarily consider when early spring transplanting two main factors: humidity and wind.
After planting, water the seedlings need a time, and not to do this until there is no danger of frost.
In the period after transplanting until it settle down, the plants decreased resistance to cold, so the seedlings should be planted with minimal damage to the root system (eg pots) that the period of survival was minimal. When growing seedlings should be periodically from the moment of its emergence exposure nighttime freezing temperatures, ranging from a few minutes hardening and increasing it to a few hours. When planting in the ground need to protect seedlings from wind any available material.
Most hardy varieties
Spiridonovskaya. Undersized, standard, precocious. The fruits are small, up to 60 g, red, suitable for canning. From germination to early maturation under favorable conditions, is 80-90 days. Resistance to low temperatures was confirmed by the Institute of Biology, Karelian Branch of the RAS. When tested in young seedlings survived four frozen to -14 °.
Orenburzhets. Undersized, standard. Red fruits, weighing 80-100 g, good taste, universal purpose. Endured three consecutive freeze: -5 °, -7 °, -10 °.
Kemerovets. Undersized. Pink fruits weighing up to 100 g, high commodity and taste, universal purpose. Withstood freezing -7 °, -10 °, -13 °.
0-33. Srednerosloe. The fruits are large, up to 200 g, flat-round, red. Beginning maturity - Mid-July, the yield per bush - more than 6 kg. When tested survived two freezing and one -9 ° -7 °.
Stepniak 50. Srednerosloe. Red fruits, weighing 30-50 g, rounded, smooth, multi-purpose. Is resistant to temperature variations. Went through five freezing to -10 °.
I-3. Average height, very early, in good years the fruits ripen in late June. High-yielding. Fruits are flat-round, red, weighing 100-200 g when tested went through five frost from -6 ° to -11
Siberian. Srednerosloe. Fruits are flat-round, red, large, fleshy, high taste. Variety is very crop. When tested withstood seven frozen to -10 °.
Lemon. Tall, late-maturing. The fruit shape and color to its name, weighing 70-80 g, hang huge brushes, very harvest. The fruits are fleshy, well-kept, suitable for canning. Through three freeze to -10 °.
M-16. Tall, late-maturing. Fruits are very beautiful shape, good presentation. Weighing 200-300 g, fleshy, good taste, well kept. Tests: one frost -3 °, two - on -10 °.
Tomato F1RR. Fruits bright red, flat-round, multi-chamber. The pulp is fleshy and juicy, with a high sugar content, has amazing taste. With proper care and rationing of the ovaries in the brush can grow fruits record up to 2 kg! The plant is vigorous, indeterminate. Fruits ripen 130-140 days. Juice of them get a very thick, well and quickly boil down to the consistency of a paste, and one fruit salad can be prepared for the whole family.
MA Litvinov, p. Novoaleksandrovka Orenburg region. [/QUOTE]