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-   -   New Property, New Garden (http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=43054)

Kazedwards November 5, 2016 11:44 PM

New Property, New Garden
 
New property, new garden

At the end of September my wife and I closed on 3 1/2 acres a little east of where we are now. We will be building a home and should be moving in around June or July. So now I have been thinking of the new property and what I should do. I think I would like to stick with no till. I would like it to be several small gardens spread out rather than one big one. The soil already seems to be better than I already too. Next year I don't plan on having a huge garden but working towards it every year. I was thinking maybe a few hugelkultur beds. Any other thoughts?

I am also starting to think about fruit trees too. I want to have a Pawpaw, apple, peach and maybe a cherry tree. A couple of each. When is the best time to plant them? Also any specific varieties a should look for?

Kazedwards November 5, 2016 11:51 PM

We are also planning on putting in berms with landscaping and trees on the edge for privacy. The property has a gentle slope and dips in one corner.

Also here are a few pictures
It is hard to see but there is a stake with orange paint. Behind that is a small tree which is the far property line catty corner from where I took it.
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/48a62e4cb5ff05bdc31acafd5af054d5.jpg[/IMG]
In this pic you can see a green electrical box at the right by the street. That is the other corner.
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/55100de5010e17bc5cbf68957e9c6852.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/da6a5eaf2f3e778a6a0d026e3abec8a9.jpg[/IMG]
This last picture is the soil test for the septic.
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/6480b5f7277d8afec03d7b653cd87855.jpg[/IMG]

Worth1 November 5, 2016 11:53 PM

Plant the trees in the winter very early spring I have no recommendations on the verity as I dont know what your chill hours are.

That will be a deciding factor.

Kazedwards November 6, 2016 12:02 AM

[QUOTE=Worth1;598761]Plant the trees in the winter very early spring I have no recommendations on the verity as I dont know what your chill hours are.

That will be a deciding factor.[/QUOTE]



I'm in 6a almost 6b right outside Kansas City, Missouri. We get a lot of thaws throughout the winter. I thinking starting the small orchard next fall.

Thanks for the fast response Worth!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cole_Robbie November 6, 2016 12:13 AM

Are you part of the neighborhood with the big houses? Congrats if so. I only ask to make sure there is no HOA agreement in place to which you are subject. Some people consider gardens to be eyesores.

I think peaches take the most work to grow, especially frequent spraying. My grandpa had an orchard for many years. My favorite variety is JH Hale, a very old variety and one of the very few that require multiple trees to pollinate each other. Georgia Bell is another old variety my grandpa grew. They are a white peach that bruises if you give them a dirty look, but they are famous for flavor.

Apples take a little spraying if you want them to look nice. We never had much luck with sweet cherry trees. They like it farther north. Pie cherries, on the other hand, will grow like a wild tree. I've never grown pawpaws, but pears are the other low-maintenance fruit trees. Both the old-fashioned Kiefer pear and the Asian pear-apple grow very well.

Blackberries and blueberries are also fairly easy to grow. You'll probably amend your soil with lime for the blueberries first. My family grows a lot of blackberries. They are labor-intensive to prune in the early spring and also to pick if you have too many. The thorny ones are sweeter. I think it's the same as what grows wild. The birds have planted a large patch in my backyard for me.

If that hole is representative of the rest of your property, you have three times as much topsoil as me, and it looks very dark and rich. I would think whatever you plant will do well.

Kazedwards November 6, 2016 12:31 AM

[QUOTE=Cole_Robbie;598765]Are you part of the neighborhood with the big houses? Congrats if so. I only ask to make sure there is no HOA agreement in place to which you are subject. Some people consider gardens to be eyesores.

I think peaches take the most work to grow, especially frequent spraying. My grandpa had an orchard for many years. My favorite variety is JH Hale, a very old variety and one of the very few that require multiple trees to pollinate each other. Georgia Bell is another old variety my grandpa grew. They are a white peach that bruises if you give them a dirty look, but they are famous for flavor.

Apples take a little spraying if you want them to look nice. We never had much luck with sweet cherry trees. They like it farther north. Pie cherries, on the other hand, will grow like a wild tree. I've never grown pawpaws, but pears are the other low-maintenance fruit trees. Both the old-fashioned Kiefer pear and the Asian pear-apple grow very well.

Blackberries and blueberries are also fairly easy to grow. You'll probably amend your soil with lime for the blueberries first. My family grows a lot of blackberries. They are labor-intensive to prune in the early spring and also to pick if you have too many. The thorny ones are sweeter. I think it's the same as what grows wild. The birds have planted a large patch in my backyard for me.

If that hole is representative of the rest of your property, you have three times as much topsoil as me, and it looks very dark and rich. I would think whatever you plant will do well.[/QUOTE]



Thank you for the compliment on the soil. I agree it looks great! What I have now is solid clay and a pain in the but to work with.

It is part of a neighborhood with a very lax HOA. There are no HOA fees either. We can even have chickens and are planning on them in the future too. Several of the neighborhoods have gardens. One of the reasons we chose the lot we did.

Thanks for the recommendations for the fruit trees. I would like a few of each but all different varieties. Maybe just one Pawpaw though as I have never tried one. They are supposedly native to Missouri but I can't seem to find any to try. I'm fairly certain hey self pollinate.

I plan on blueberries, blackberries, and raspberries but they will be a little farther down the road. Maybe some grapes too.

Geez 3 1/2 acres might not be now that I read it all. Lol.

Kazedwards November 6, 2016 12:31 AM

Here is a picture of the lot with where the house will sit. The blue line is the property line. To the right is a sign for the neighborhood.
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/b7dcdf88bbc6146b2015b71785e214b5.png[/IMG]


-Zach

ginger2778 November 6, 2016 06:59 AM

I am green with envy. Wow! The fruit trees I have are mandatory for no chill hours. I did have over 400 mangoes this year, yes tons of starfruit, and 5 pineapples, but no apples ,stone fruit, blue or blackberries ever. 3&1/2 acres, fabulous. All with soil you can actually plant things in without nematodes.

GrowingCoastal November 6, 2016 12:04 PM

Congratulations on your new location Kazedwards. It looks wonderful.


"amend your soil with lime for the blueberries"

Really? It surprised me to read that.

pmcgrady November 6, 2016 12:37 PM

[QUOTE=GrowingCoastal;598803]Congratulations on your new location Kazedwards. It looks wonderful.


"amend your soil with lime for the blueberries"

Really? It surprised me to read that.[/QUOTE]


I was thinking the same thing as I was reading up on blueberries yesterday..
(Rodales Organic Gardening)
Add peat and/or oak leaves to amend the soil, never lime.

pmcgrady November 6, 2016 12:47 PM

[QUOTE=Kazedwards;598763]I'm in 6a almost 6b right outside Kansas City, Missouri. We get a lot of thaws throughout the winter. I thinking starting the small orchard next fall.

Thanks for the fast response Worth!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I've had good luck with fruit trees from Stark Brothers Nursery and they are located in Missouri. You might be able to buy directly from the nursery, thus saving shipping costs. Norse Farms is also a great place to buy from.

Cole_Robbie November 6, 2016 02:38 PM

Sorry. I meant sulphur, not lime, for the blueberries.

Worth1 November 6, 2016 03:13 PM

[QUOTE=pmcgrady;598812]I've had good luck with fruit trees from Stark Brothers Nursery and they are located in Missouri. You might be able to buy directly from the nursery, thus saving shipping costs. Norse Farms is also a great place to buy from.[/QUOTE]

Stark also has a list of fruit that will grow in your area.
All you do is type in your zip code and all of the apples or what ever will come up and the pollinator needed.

[QUOTE=Cole_Robbie;598819]Sorry. I meant sulphur, not lime, for the blueberries.[/QUOTE]

It is the word lime that confuses people and the term sweeten soil.
Lime fruit sour acidic, Lime stone basic or alkali. :lol:

If it were me I would add copious amounts of peat to the soil to help acidify it if needed.
It would also help to loosen the soil.
But we all do things differently.
When I lived in southern Mo we didn't do anything to the soil and grew fantastic blueberries.
Too stupid to know better.:lol:
Southern Mo is nothing but limestone.
Worth

ginger2778 November 6, 2016 03:26 PM

Cole, you can edit your post if you want.

Cole_Robbie November 6, 2016 03:34 PM

Nah, learning experience. I just had it in my head that lime was acidic. Worth made a good point. I was probably thinking of lime juice. If you added enough of that, I bet blueberries would grow well :)

Kazedwards November 6, 2016 07:47 PM

Thanks for the big response everyone. I will definitely check out Starks.

As far as blueberries we always get a live Christmas tree. I had assays heard that pine needles help with blueberries. So I thought I would make a hugelkulture bed out of the whole tree. Figured it would do the same as pine needles.


-Zach

PhilaGardener November 6, 2016 08:18 PM

[QUOTE=Kazedwards;598766]Maybe just one Pawpaw though as I have never tried one. They are supposedly native to Missouri but I can't seem to find any to try. I'm fairly certain hey self pollinate.[/QUOTE]

You will need at least two, as most pawpaw varieties are not self-fruitful. ;)

Cole_Robbie November 6, 2016 08:45 PM

I have always wanted to grow them, but never have. I was just reading the descriptions of a few varieties here: [url]http://www.petersonpawpaws.com/Products.php[/url]

Kazedwards November 8, 2016 12:58 AM

I don't know why they interest me so much but they do. They use to be very popular but have been forgotten in the last 60-70 years.


-Zach

Kazedwards November 24, 2016 03:37 AM

So a few days ago I plant some garlic at the new place. I must say I am amazed by the soil. I took some compost and some soil from the best area of the current garden and took it out there with me. It doesn't have anything on the soil at the new place. The new soil is very dark and has great texture. Can't wait to see how stuff grows in it.

Here is the new soil just a shovel deep.
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/e11f2990a9b7e9482756e4b606cbd1ae.jpg[/IMG]
Here is the new soil on the left and the soil/compost I brought on the right. Huge difference!
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/259bee57c00147f08cb1caa365c0475f.jpg[/IMG]


-Zach

Sydney Grower November 24, 2016 06:26 AM

Blueberries
 
2 Attachment(s)
Speaking of blueberries, just picked our 4 bushes again tonight. They just keep giving. Every 3 days we pick a bowl full like this. Can't believe how generous they are.

Enjoyed some for dessert.

MissS November 26, 2016 10:23 PM

I just saw this thread and WOW, you have some great topsoil there and look at how deep it is!!! You sure do have a great piece of land, I bet that you have your best garden ever next year. I am very envious, most of us work years to have what you have found in that little shovel.

MendozaMark November 27, 2016 10:18 AM

Don't forget that blueberries are also great landscaping plants. They make a real nice hedge with beautiful fall red colors.

dustdevil November 27, 2016 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=Sydney Grower;601396]Speaking of blueberries, just picked our 4 bushes again tonight. They just keep giving. Every 3 days we pick a bowl full like this. Can't believe how generous they are.

Enjoyed some for dessert.[/QUOTE]

I think I see some rare Australian Blueberry Spiders glowing in the bottom of that bowl. You best mail a bowl of your blueberries to my lab for further analysis:twisted:

Salsacharley November 27, 2016 12:11 PM

It may go without saying but I advise you to be very certain where you want to place your trees. Be sure they don't cause shade problems for your garden locations. What a fabulous opportunity you have to plan and build everything to your own specs. Good luck!

Cole_Robbie November 27, 2016 02:02 PM

Good point about the plan. It's hard to tell from the pics, but another thing to look for are frost pockets. Cold air will flow downhill like water and collect in the lowest areas. Those spots will usually freeze out plants that otherwise would be hardy in your zone.

Jimbotomateo November 29, 2016 05:19 PM

Dandy Dirt
 
[QUOTE=Kazedwards;601392]So a few days ago I plant some garlic at the new place. I must say I am amazed by the soil. I took some compost and some soil from the best area of the current garden and took it out there with me. It doesn't have anything on the soil at the new place. The new soil is very dark and has great texture. Can't wait to see how stuff grows in it.

Here is the new soil just a shovel deep.
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/e11f2990a9b7e9482756e4b606cbd1ae.jpg[/IMG]
Here is the new soil on the left and the soil/compost I brought on the right. Huge difference!
[IMG]http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/259bee57c00147f08cb1caa365c0475f.jpg[/IMG]
Can you send me a truck load. Thanks in advance, Jimbo.:lol::lol::lol:

-Zach[/QUOTE]

Sydney Grower November 30, 2016 07:09 AM

[QUOTE=dustdevil;601763]I think I see some rare Australian Blueberry Spiders glowing in the bottom of that bowl. You best mail a bowl of your blueberries to my lab for further analysis:twisted:[/QUOTE]

Haha Dusty,

Love it. Just send an address and i'll get them right on the way

Kazedwards December 2, 2016 09:50 PM

Thanks for all the responses guys. I have worked on the soil at the current place for 4 years and it's not even close to as good as that.

The property does slope down enough that I'm sure I will have a frost pocket. The hill faces northeast. I was thinking of planting the fruit trees with peaches toward the bottom. That way the soil warms slower and I don't have a late frost ruin a year.

I can't wait to start getting the more permanent trees and bushes planted but I don't want to rush to fast and regret it later.


-Zach

Worth1 December 3, 2016 12:14 PM

That soil goes back thousands of years and is the soil that was all over the Oklahoma Kansas Texas area before the great dust bowl days.
Many feet of soil was simply blown away when they plowed under the buffalo grass to grow wheat.
Then it stopped raining and the wind started blowing.:(


I have been 100 foot up in an oil derrick and seen these things coming in out in west Texas from the cotton fields of new Mexico and the pan handle.
[IMG]https://thekolereport.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/clayton-nm-1937.jpg[/IMG]

Time to get out of the derrick as the wind kicks up to 70 mph in no time and the temperature drops big time.
Sometimes from 60 to 20 in less than 15 minutes.

For fruit trees you can plant them in rows in the garden but give space and select dwarf or semi dwarf trees.
Your going to be pruning them anyway.
You can even do the aspalier training to make better use of your space.
No law says they have to be a tree.
[url]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwihjO-9tNjQAhUg0IMKHfNRAaoQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starkbros.com%2Fgrowing-guide%2Farticle%2Fespalier-fruit-trees&usg=AFQjCNF1_xaHXvtugd_TvHvkidXPSIV7Vw&sig2=O3XwVYpDq4ZGKpReY8q0rw[/url]
Run your grape trellises and fruit tree rows from south east to northwest.


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