Mycorrhizae..can I get more bang for my $$$?
 

I have asked a few places and I seem to get the same answer. Some version of- I have never thought of that. I currently pay a lot more than I would like to for these products. I started with the liquid. I then read the powder label and it seemed to have more types of beneficial bacteria in it. I mentioned it to my Wife and the next day I get home from work and she had bought me a big tub of it(I think she is awesome! I originally thought she did it because she loves me. I now think she just wants a gazillion cherry tomatoes...hmmm)I now have both. Great, I am excited and rotate between the two. Doesn't change the fact this stuff is pretty expensive for the amount you get. My question is can you increase the amount you get? I have been using compost or worm tea and I know the reason you let it bubble for hours on end is to let the bacteria and fungi grow. If I add mycorrhizae to a bucket with molasses or some other food source can I turn a few cc's into a few gallons?

Never really looked into it. I can get MycoGrow soluble for $5.95 for an ounce which is enough for over 100 plants. Ami

[url]http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-oz.html[/url]

You can't grow mycorrhizae in compost tea. They are species of fungi and the spores need to be near the roots of a living host plant before they will hatch, attach to a root, grow and reproduce.
That is how Mycorrhizal innoculants are produced commercially, they are grown on plant roots, harvested and the propagules are separated. Propagules are viable spores and mycelium (fragments of mycorrhizal roots)

Here's a good reference for what RayR stated:

[URL]http://www.invam.caf.wvu.edu/methods/mycorrhizae/hyphae.htm[/URL]

That's an interesting page Randall, the way the hyphae aggregate in the water reminds me of another benefit that mycorrhizae give to improved soil structure. The glomalin protein that they excrete causes soil particles to aggregate into small clumps, improving drainage and aeration. A definite plus for heavy clay soils. There are other benefits of glomalin which you can [URL="http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/ad_hoc/54450000Glomalin/Glomalinbrochure.pdf"]read about here[/URL].

that's a great page. bookmarked!

Both are excellent references. Ami

Like Ami said, the idea is that once a plant is given that bath of Myco at transplant time, they will never need it again, as it should live and grow as long as your plant does. While it is easy to say that, it is impossible to say if you soil might already have them, as many native soils already do. I know that I am currently running a trial of 16 bush bean plants, 8 with and 8 without Myco, though the brand I am using is Garden-ville. We made our first harvest today, and there is NO difference between them. Maybe my soil already had some that were dormant, maybe the Garden-ville brand is junk, or maybe they don't make a big difference for bush beans grown in healthy soil. There are a lot of questions there and it could take a few years to figure it all out.

I remember reading somewhere that Glomus mosseae was the most effective species of mycorrhizae at colonizing bean plants, other species didn't colonize as well or at all and didn't make much difference in growth or yield. It's a common workhorse species in most myco inocculants, but it might already be native to your soil for all we know. I don't know what variety of species are in Garden-ville's innoculant.
Other than mycorrhizae, Trichoderma fungi and the Nitrogen fixing Rhizobium bacteria species that colonize legume roots are highly beneficial to bean plants.

Thank you for all the info. Guess it is back to just plain old compost tea, which isn't a bad thing. That stuff WORKS!!!

Ran across this link this morning and this thread came to mind...This looks to be the easiest and most economical way to grow your own Mycorrhizae:

[URL]http://www.extension.org/pages/18627/on-farm-production-and-utilization-of-am-fungus-inoculum[/URL]

I hope this can help you out, Atomic Grow!

Randall

Randall, I was thinking about all the products that I used this season that already have Mycorrhizae innoculants in it.

Espoma Tomato-Tone
Espoma Bio-Tone
MycoGrow
Dr. Earth Organic Compost
Dr. Earth Organic 5
Some potting soils that I have used to amend my containers also have Mycorrhizae

Errr...why would I want to think about spending any more time or money to grow my own?:lol:

[QUOTE=RayR;286157]Errr...why would I want to think about spending any more time or money to grow my own?:lol:[/QUOTE]

I agree, Ray. With innoculation being a one time thing, in most cases you really only need a small amount. I think pumpkin growers use mycos multiple times because the vining plants are always setting new roots from nodes along the vine. I can see tomato growers who sprawl their plants finding benefits from multiple applications also.

For large scale production, I can see how growing your own mycos could save money. Any method that can clean up agriculture a bit and give it a nudge toward more sustainable methods is probably a good thing. As far as the home gardener goes, a little goes a long way.

This thread is interesting and I wanted to be able to find it again. I always forget what forum threads are in since I usually view from the "new" posts link. So I had to post so I could find it in my "subscribed" list.

Carol

Randall,

You are absolutely correct concerning using mycos on pumpkin plants.

I'm growing giant pumpkins this year and use a mixture of mycos, worm castings and other things to assist in rooting when I bury pumpkin vines at each leaf node.

I've also added some as a side dressing to my sweet pepper plants to see it it would promote a more rapid and thicker growth.

We shall see!!


Julia

[QUOTE=Randall;286200]I agree, Ray. With innoculation being a one time thing, in most cases you really only need a small amount. I think pumpkin growers use mycos multiple times because the vining plants are always setting new roots from nodes along the vine. I can see tomato growers who sprawl their plants finding benefits from multiple applications also.

For large scale production, I can see how growing your own mycos could save money. Any method that can clean up agriculture a bit and give it a nudge toward more sustainable methods is probably a good thing. As far as the home gardener goes, a little goes a long way.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RayR;286157]Randall, I was thinking about all the products that I used this season that already have Mycorrhizae innoculants in it.

Espoma Tomato-Tone
Espoma Bio-Tone
MycoGrow
Dr. Earth Organic Compost
Dr. Earth Organic 5
Some potting soils that I have used to amend my containers also have Mycorrhizae
....
[/QUOTE]
Does Tomato-Tone really have Myco in it? I don't think it does, but I could be mistaken. As for Bio-Tone, I think only the 'plus' version has Myco. I think most Dr Earth does have the Myco and soils are always hit or miss. The question some have asked about the soils is 'do the myco survive when no plants are present'? And if so, how much?

I used Bio-tone the best one with Mycorrhizae and my kitchen compost, Blood Meal in all holes in my garden Tomato and peppers. Now after 35 days the plants are taking off with some hot day coming now. Unbelievable looking potato leave plants Amason Chocolate and StumpOTWorld. a few are 9" long the plants are only 24' tall. Espoma gave me bags of new bags with Mycorrhizae, Garden -Tone, Plant-Tone. This are new bags

[QUOTE=eltex;287122]Does Tomato-Tone really have Myco in it? I don't think it does, but I could be mistaken. As for Bio-Tone, I think only the 'plus' version has Myco. I think most Dr Earth does have the Myco and soils are always hit or miss. The question some have asked about the soils is 'do the myco survive when no plants are present'? And if so, how much?[/QUOTE]

You're right, Tomato-Tone doesn't have myco's in it, it has 7 species of bacteria.
Contains 895 colony forming units (CFU’s) per gram of the
following species:
Acidovorax facilis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus licheniformis . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus megaterium . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus pumilus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus subtilis. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Cellulomonas flavigena . . . . . . . . . . . 21 CFU’s per gram
Paenibacillus polymyxa. . . . . . . . . . . 21 CFU’s per gram

Bio-Tone Starter Plus has myco's & bacteria, Bio-Tone only has the bacteria.

Here's a pic of the ingredients in Dr. Earth Organic Compost, it's the same with the Organic 5 fertilizer I have. Dormant propagules can survive in dry potting soils but moist soils can be a problem. Dr. Earth uses what they call [URL="http://drearth.net/blog/learning-center/the-technology/promoisture-hydrate/"]Pro-Moisture Hydrate[/URL] to protect the microbes in their moist soils from temperature extremes.

Espoma Organic potting soils now have Myco-Tone in them now, i got a bag this spring for herb pots and some hanging pots, really nice loose clean soil if you would call it soil?

So, if you had to pick a single product to impart these fungi, which one would it be?

Originally Posted by RayR
"Randall, I was thinking about all the products that I used this season that already have Mycorrhizae innoculants in it.

Espoma Tomato-Tone
Espoma Bio-Tone
MycoGrow
Dr. Earth Organic Compost
Dr. Earth Organic 5
Some potting soils that I have used to amend my containers also have Mycorrhizae"

I gather there's already one vote for Bio-Tone Plus. Also, are the effects the same for beans, tomatoes & pumpkins, I would imagine not? I ask because all of these for me could be better but, especially my pole beans.

Many thanks,
Royce

Epsoma Bio-Tone Plus


[IMG]http://www.espoma.com/im/btss_s.jpg[/IMG] [B]Bio-tone® Starter Plus 4-3-3[/B]
[LIST][*]All natural plant food with bacteria, humates and mycorrhizae.[*]For enhanced root development.[*]In 4, 20 and 25 lb. bags.[/LIST] [URL="http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/biotone_02.html"]» Product Details[/URL]

Thanks Filmnet. They've got that at Lowes. I guess that's not for side dressing though, just at planting.

I got a bag free from Epsoma 4lb its the best around you could use it for side dressing but its expensive make sure if the plus one. They sent me bags also of Garden -tone and Plant-Tone which now has Bio-Tone Microbes in the bags here is 1 20lb bag they sent, this is a new package its not even on their website yet, this label in corner is new.

Lucky you with the freebies!! I think they just got the new bags of Garden-Tone at Lowes too because they had both on the shelves and it confused me (I'm sorta slow...) hehe!

[QUOTE]So, if you had to pick a single product to impart these fungi, which one would it be?[/QUOTE]

Since we are talking Fungi it would be MycoGrow Soluable. Ami

Danke Ami! Will look for it directly. Best, Royce

I won a box last spring because i put my garden phots on there face book page, tee shirt and 4 bags Bio Tone, potting soil and the fish fertilizer, this spring we found the wheelbarrow from 1930s in our cellar. I took shot with there bags in it around our house and neighbors house,4- 20lg bags of Plant-Tone, Garden -Tone, Holly-Tone, potting soil and 2 spray bottles. i did post shots here of these.

Nice gifties for a stunning pic!

I know this is a slightly older thread, but had some thoughts.

While growing your own mycorrhizal fungi spores seems a bit too involved, growing pure-ish cultures of useful bacteria like [I]Bacillus subtilis[/I] or [I]Streptomyces lydicus[/I] should be pretty easy.

You'd basically use the same 5 gallon bucket setup people use for compost tea, but without the compost. Instead you fill the bucket with a nutrient solution and inoculate it with the product.

The nutrient solution should be very, very dilute, and might vary depending on what you're culturing. Fish emulsion and seaweed should work as an all purpose nutrient source though. You could add small amounts of powdered chitin (crabshells) or beta-glucan (mushrooms, oats) to promote the production of antifungal compounds, like chitinases and beta-glucanases.

You'd have to inoculate with the commercial product each time.. I don't think you could successfully keep a small amount of the culture to inoculate the next one. The purity would be too low, and eventually you'd be culturing who knows what.

Could this be illegal? This would just be for personal use of course.

It's an interesting idea and would make a good experiment for someone with a powerful microscope.

Compost would already have an active population of bacteria and fungi, but commercial inoculants are sold as dormant spores in a carrier containing a food source and other compounds to encourage germination.
The question is: How long can you keep the bacterial populations alive and growing in a water/nutrient mix? Or is that not the best way to culture them? Bacillus subtilis and Streptomyces lydicus are also two vary different types of bacteria with vary different methods of colonization and reproduction, but both need a stable substrate to grow on, so I think you are right about not successfully keeping a small amount of the culture going for long in just a water/nutrient mix.