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Rey Humberto or King Umberto
[FONT=serif]PI 131880[/FONT]
[FONT=serif].[/FONT] [FONT=serif] Rey Humberto.[/FONT] [FONT=serif] An Italian variety imported from Italy but collected 1939 in Argentina. I used this variety in breeding lines back maybe fifty years ago from the tomato collections. I was using the San Marzano variety quite a bit in crosses and I wanted similar kinds to use. I don't even know if any of my lines using it are even viable anymore. Fast forward to today. I used what I think is the same variety KING UMBERTO in a cross to my Flaming Burst. Flaming Burst is a Flamme x Verde Claro OP that has tear shaped gold cherry tomato fruits. The hybrid between FB and KU might be kinda interesting. Using varieties such as Rey Humberto or King Umberto which probably date back to the late 1800's, may be of interest to some gardeners. My pollen plant of King Umberto has some crosses on it but it is too soon to give my readers here any information about it. Maybe someone could chime in. [/FONT] [FONT=serif],[/FONT] |
[QUOTE=Tom Wagner;372221][FONT=serif]PI 131880[/FONT]
[FONT=serif].[/FONT] [FONT=serif]Rey Humberto.[/FONT] [FONT=serif]An Italian variety imported from Italy but collected 1939 in Argentina.[/FONT] [FONT=serif]I used this variety in breeding lines back maybe fifty years ago from the tomato [/FONT] [FONT=serif]collections. I was using the San Marzano variety quite a bit in crosses and I [/FONT] [FONT=serif]wanted similar kinds to use. I don't even know if any of my lines using it are even[/FONT] [FONT=serif]viable anymore.[/FONT] [FONT=serif]Fast forward to today. I used what I think is the same variety KING UMBERTO [/FONT] [FONT=serif]in a cross to my Flaming Burst. Flaming Burst is a Flamme x Verde Claro OP that[/FONT] [FONT=serif]has tear shaped gold cherry tomato fruits. The hybrid between FB and KU might [/FONT] [FONT=serif]be kinda interesting. Using varieties such as Rey Humberto or King Umberto [/FONT] [FONT=serif]which probably date back to the late 1800's, may be of interest to some gardeners.[/FONT] [FONT=serif]My pollen plant of King Umberto has some crosses on it but it is too soon to give [/FONT] [FONT=serif]my readers here any information about it. Maybe someone could chime in.[/FONT] [FONT=serif],[/FONT][/QUOTE] [URL]http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Roi_Humbert[/URL] Tom, this is a variety that Bill Minkey got from a huge trade with Norbert in France in 1992. Others who participated were Joe Bratka, Craig L and myself. I grew it back then and didn't like it at all. The skin was very tough and taste was not memorable at all. In that huge trade we were able to get many new varieties and all of them were SSE listed so lots of folks had access to them, Jaune Flammee was one of them. I don't know if that's the same as the Flammee that you mentioned above, b/c there is a mixup with the word Flammee being used in different contexts. Carolyn |
[QUOTE]The skin was very tough and taste was not memorable at all.
[/QUOTE] Thanks, Carolyn, I suspected that there would be many reasons not to grow an old variety but if I can bring in the tender, sweet, and flavorful elements of my Flaming Burst into King Umberto...so much the better. An F-1 hybrid may be sufficient but I'll bet that an OP derived from the filial levels of the cross could be obtained to meet our modern standards of excellence. [QUOTE]Jaune Flammee[/QUOTE] That is the one I used, and it seems I want to drop the Jaune and the final "e" on Flammee. If I do a freetranslation.com on flame to the French it comes out flamme. I keep forgetting how to type the accent mark on [B]Flammée. If I get a good cross or OP out of the combination of Flaming Burst and King Umberto I could call it Flaming Umbursto. I dunno, but I really feel that many of these old "so yesteryear" varieties need to be recycled into new clones. Keeping the classic shape of the fruit is a possibility, but modify the other traits that are demerits. If there are other growers of this variety does it look like this: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/zAH6oCT.png?1[/IMG] [/B] |
[QUOTE=Tom Wagner;372263]Thanks, Carolyn, I suspected that there would be many reasons not to grow an old variety but if I can bring in the tender, sweet, and flavorful elements of my Flaming Burst into King Umberto...so much the better. An F-1 hybrid may be sufficient but I'll bet that an OP derived from the filial levels of the cross could be obtained to meet our modern standards of excellence.
That is the one I used, and it seems I want to drop the Jaune and the final "e" on Flammee. If I do a freetranslation.com on flame to the French it comes out flamme. I keep forgetting how to type the accent mark on [B]Flammée.[/B] [B]If I get a good cross or OP out of the combination of Flaming Burst and King Umberto I could call it Flaming Umbursto. I dunno, but I really feel that many of these old "so yesteryear" varieties need to be recycled into new clones. Keeping the classic shape of the fruit is a possibility, but modify the other traits that are demerits.[/B] [B]If there are other growers of this variety does it look like this:[/B] [B][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/zAH6oCT.png?1[/IMG][/B] [/QUOTE] So you haven't yet grown King Umberto? When you do please tell me which traits are so great that you'd want to cross it with something?:lol: So you want "ancient varieties" as in pre-1800 ones. If so start out with Green Gage, named after the venerable English plum of the same name.:) I once had accent marks of all kinds, I mean key strokes for same, written on a piece of paper. Haven't see it in about 20 years.;) Carolyn |
[QUOTE]So you haven't yet grown King Umberto?
[/QUOTE] The plant I have is in a pot and I used the flowers early for pollen and did not allow any to set fruit and the later blooms that I crossed are just now growing well. I will look at them today to see if the shape is what I remember from the 1960's [QUOTE]When you do please tell me which traits are so great that you'd want to cross it with something?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Old English rhyme ("Something Olde, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue, A Sixpence in your Shoe"), and the four objects that the plant breeder adds to his breeding lines or carries with him on the big day of making a cross are just good luck charms[/QUOTE] Yeah, the good luck charm of using tomatoes that might be old, new, borrowed, blue, but the Sixpence is left out. Oh, Wait! I could name a tomato Sixpence and include it in the breeding scheme! No, I would not think King Umberto to be so valuable by itself. However, there is always hope that there is something there besides the name. There is a magical element of "Yesteryear, Today, and Tomorrow" of tomato breeding. [QUOTE]So you want "ancient varieties" as in pre-1800 ones. If so start out with Green Gage, named after the venerable English plum of the same name.[/QUOTE] Carolyn, do you know of anyone who has varieties bred from Green Gage? I have the seed of Green Gage in my inventory but have not considered it directly for breeding. The Plant Introduction series of Humberto type tomatoes are from Argentina, Brazil, and Bolivia from 80 years ago. Was it distributed around the world because of the Italians or was it desired for a trait we lost track of? I am afraid we don't grow these old varieties for quality reasons but I would like to bring back part of the old critter under a new hide. |
Tom, I grew King Umberto/Humberto/Humbert whatever a few years ago from seeds from a SSE member. Mine had distinct points on the bottom, not sure at this point if they are supposed to be there, but they were mentioned in the yearbook by the member I got seeds from. Others listing have not mentioned points, but say plum shape. Reinhard-Kraft site picture has them as round looking.
I didn't think the flavor was so bad, and would grow Humberto in preference to a small Roma type, with which the fruit are similar to in size. As I remember, it was a very productive plant. Here are what mine looked like - [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/MizTortuga/Tomato%20varieties/KingHumbert.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/MizTortuga/Tomato%20varieties/KingHumbertCut.jpg[/IMG] I grew them when I was looking for the oldest versions of modern tomatoes that I could find, but who knows what changes have crept in through so many years. |
I've been doing some Googling b'c I have this memory of the Brits bringing this variety to Africa, possibly the Belgians as well, when many areas of Africa were colonized.
I have a good lead on that. I also found out that the variety was first introduced by a Naples Seed Co in 1878 which doesn't quite jive with Vilmorin saying it was introduced in 1865. I still have to check some back SSE YEarbooks b'c something it telling me that I too got it from an SSE memeber, and not Bill Minkey. When I figure out what info I have, I'll share. Tom, I know of no one who has used Green Gage in crosses, Actually I know of few who have even grown it. Finally, I saw several sites saying that King Umberto is a pre-1800 variety, which I know is not true. Carolyn |
Thanks all for the information provided.
I took another look at the Humberto tomato accessions with the PI numbers. The one I got years ago from Argentina was pear shape. The accessions from Bolivia and Brazil are round. The old saying, "A rolling stone gathers no moss" sure doesn't apply to tomatoes...the more they travel...the more they pick up other germplasm. My hunch is that the original Humberto was pear shape. I found more crosses in the tomato patch where King Umberto was used as the pollen parent. I was so busy all afternoon picking crosses that I did not take the time to visit the single plant of King Umberto I used for crossing. I had gotten this plant from my friend Taryn so I will ask her what vendor she bought the seed from. Most of the tomato fruits I picked today with crossing tags are from pollination made 7 weeks ago. |
SHOCK
If I'm reading the French correctly, others who know French better than I do can confirm that when I put up this link, I just found out that it originated in the US and was named in honor of Roi Humbert/Umberto, whatever, King of Italy. OK, I have to stop this obsession of finding out more about this variety, but it's making more sense that Norbert in France sent it to us in that huge trade in 1992/ Now I MUST go to bed and stop looking at different websites and Google, at least until tomorrow.:lol: Carolyn |
I think that tomato King Umberto is Italian tomato.
„The "Tomato Piennolo Vesuvius DOP" includes old cultivars and local biotypes united by morphological and qualitative characteristics more or less similar, the selection of which has been cured in the decades by the farmers themselves. The names of those landraces are the popular ones assigned by the same local producers, such as "Fiaschella", "bulb", "Patanara", "Principe Borghese" and "Re Umberto", traditionally cultivated for centuries in the same area of origin.“ Vladimír |
The story of King Humbert is even more interesting than has been posted here so far. It is an old Italian variety selected and named after King Humbert and listed by Vilmorin in 1885. It was lost in Italy but survived in a U.S. seed bank where it was resurrected and carried back to Italy in the mid 1950's. Since then, it has crossed the water back and forth a few more times. It is used as a Piennolo tomato in Italy today along with Lampedusa, Fiaschella, and Principe Borghese.
If you want to have fun with Italian tomatoes, there are a few names worth mentioning. San Marzano, Costoluto Genovese, Principe Borghese, King Humbert, Christopher Columbus (a re-named Italian variety), Borgo Celano, and the Piennolo del Vesuvio that Craig Lehoullier got from a friend's visit to Italy. DarJones |
Umberto was King of Italy from 1878 to 1900
Vladimír |
Again, I'm not so sure that the variety Roi Humbert originated in Italy and I hope to get those links up sooner than later/
I said I wanted to check some back SSE YEarbooks, and I have checked them and found some additional information. Chiswick, was the name of Roi Humberto in England. I've checked that out, and it turns out that it was known in many European countries, as well as the US very early on. Checked my Vilmorin book but also Fearing Burr's book as well. And have worn out my Google link.:lol: I'm finding this a bit difficult since the variety was expressed many ways, from Konig Umberto to Rey (Re) Humbert or Umberto, well, many different ways. I still need to check out the Michigan Bulletin of 1939. I know what I want, its on page 47 but right now I can't FIND page 47 and that's b'c the pages are loose and not in order and from time to time I'm looking for this or that variety and mess them up.:) Just b'c King Umberto ruled in Italy for a short time does not necessarily mean that the variety originated there, as I mentioned above. Carolyn, who will also put up a link or two showing that it was the British who did take it with them when they colonized South Africa. Bit of a kerfuffle with Cecil Rhodes about the area first known as the Congo.;) |
I think, that Italian from downhill of Vesuvio wouldn´t be assent with you.
Vladimír |
I can't believe I just lost a very long post that related to a link that I put up. I went to get another link and lost everything.
So let me see what I can recreate. [URL]http://ventmarin.free.fr/passion_tomates/tomates_rj_rr/tomates_rj_rr.htm[/URL] Scroll down to where you see Roi Humbert and a series of catalogs. Note where it says a pre-1800 variety and originated in the US and named for the King of Italy. Then click on the various catalogs to see what was written, and note that it was known as Chiswick Red in England early on. And in the 4th catalog grown in Naples in 1912. Then look at the timeline dates in order. The question is, to me, what was being grown in the US pre-1800 that could have been named in the US at that time. There were many Italian immigrants who came to the US pre-1800 and no doubt they brought seeds with them, and the shape of Roi Humbert is "roma" shape and it would make sense that someone wanted to honor the King of Italy from their home country and named an unnamed roma that was brought to the US. So yes, originated in the US as a named variety, but probably from Italy as an unnamed roma variety brought to the US by Italian immigrants. And widely distributed in many countries early on as we also know happened with many other varieties. Also note in listings below the one with catalogs that white and yellow and pink versions of it were reported and where they were reported from. Christian Lemaire, who owns Ventmarin, is a superb researcher and obviously has a strong interest in Roi Humbert. Are there errors at the site in descriptions? Yes, some that have been found but primarily when he had to get info from others. No way am I going to go fetch another link and possibly lose this post.:) I apologize for not getting back here earlier, but surgery is this week, the Feds have still not sent my tax rebate where it should be sent, saying due to sequestration and eliminiation of many IRS agents, had to deal with transferring money from my retirement account, complex, and then lots of other stuff. Happy reading. Carolyn |
I favour you speedy recovery.
Vladimír |
Carolyn,
It is interesting what a little research of an old variety creates depending on who is doing it! I sent an email to my source, Taryn, for her source of King Umberto in anticipation of at least resolving what I have used in breeding work. So many nooks and crannies caught my eye as I looked into the internet connections with key words....Chiswick, Re, Roi, Rey, Umberto, Humbert, Humberto, etc. All I wanted was the proper phenotype description for what I used to make crosses. Little did I think there could be so much to cause confusion as to synonyms, and distinct germplasm differences. This variety is so fraught with dichotomous and diverse lineage that I fear no one will sort it all out. In fact, I rather like the associated discord and it provides credence to what many older tomato breeders have admitted to me. Basically it was an answer to the question..."If one has the same variety and someone else has the same variety and many generations have separated the two collections...are they the same?" No, was the answer. No..... as the default answer implies that breeders experience bottle necking, variety admixture, out crossing, mutation, faulty records, and plain re-selection. A variety like the Umberto type has traveled far and wide for a long time. [I]Viva la diferencia![/I] Ventmarin says King Umberto..... no picture but says to see Roi Humbert I don’t know if that he thinks they are the same or just the names are linked somehow. Chiswick Red as a synonym for King Umberto? Chiswick shows up on GRIN and a couple of photos help distinguish it. Chiswick Red or Red Chiswick PI 645002 The fruit of Chiswick [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/4kSNZDN.png%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/4kSNZDN.png[/IMG[/URL]] Very different shape from the Humberto/Umberto types The leaf of Chiswick [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/oGZ44ID.png%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/oGZ44ID.png[/IMG[/URL]] The German version [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/5Hl0x8F.png?1%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/5Hl0x8F.png?1[/IMG[/URL]] No points on the German type Tatiana’s [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/ZNp1qDX.jpg%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/ZNp1qDX.jpg[/IMG[/URL]] It has points Underwood/Terroir [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/xYdOcd5.jpg%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/xYdOcd5.jpg[/IMG[/URL]] It also has points Solana Seeds has much to say... [B][FONT="]Re Umberto[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT="][SIZE=2]Notice the spelling[/SIZE] [/FONT][/B] [FONT="][IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/ZZY2PMW.png%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/ZZY2PMW.png[/IMG[/URL]][/FONT] Does not look like King Umberto [FONT="] [/FONT]Solana states: [QUOTE]Old italian variety named after King Umberto. Paste type, like Roma and San Marzano, with oval shaped, 6 cm, deep red fruits. For sauces or fresh eating. This one will ripen very slowly on the plant. So make sure to wait until it is turns completely red. About 90 days. Rare! ([SIZE=4]This is not the "King Umberto" [COLOR=black]Tomato[/COLOR][/SIZE].)[/QUOTE] [FONT="]Solana then suggests to read this:[/FONT] King Umberto, a tomato in exile [QUOTE]"It is a matter of synonyms"[I] Alberto Olivucci[/I][/QUOTE] [FONT="][URL]http://www.gondrano.it/agric/reumbert.htm[/URL][/FONT] [FONT="][URL="http://www.gondrano.it/agric/reumbert.htm"] [/URL][/FONT] [FONT="]The translation…for what it is worth….[/FONT] [B][FONT="]http://www.freetranslation.com/translation.html#!/505037985fe01ac20407b80a/505037985fe01ac20407b7fb/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gondrano.it%2Fagric%2Freumbert.htm [/FONT][/B] |
Tom, I noted above that there were so many ways of expressing this variety that I was having trouble searching
You've linked to several of the links I was going to put up, so now I don't need to do that. For what it SHOULD look like I'd go back to some of the pictures in the older catalogs from the Ventmarin link I gave, And MOST helpful are the line drawings, a single fruit, a cluster of fruits and a smaller single fruit showing the square shape of the fruit, and description in the first English edition of Vilmorin in1885, I'm going to laboriusly, ahem, copy down all of that description. And laboriously since it's near the end of that very fat book, I can't keep the page open, so have to type one handed. KING HUMBERT TOMATO (Tomate Roi Humbert) This variety, which is probably derived from the pear-shaped tomato, is distinguished by its rather peculiar form and appearance. The fruit, which grows in clusters of from 5 to 10, is of a pretty regular shape, but is frequently flattened on four sides, so that a section of it, espeically near the end, presents a nearly square outline. It is about the size of a small hen's egg and of a very bright scarlet colour. The plant is of average height and earliness, and a most extraordinary cropper, with spreading leaves that are not curled,. The new English variety called Chiswick Red comes so near this variety that we think one might be very easily mistaken for the other. $$$$$ There are no nipples shown. I couldn't get your translation of the Italian article to display. From the 2006 SSE YEarbook listing for King Humbert. From Belgium;aka Re Umberto),indet,red shaped fruit, excellent paste From Denmark:, aka Konig Humbert, indet,pear shaped, egg sized,scarlet fruits in clusters of 8-10 or more, tasty,amazingly prolific, midseason but crops well until first frost ( smooth, slightly thick skin), described in Vilmorin 1885, introduced to Denmark same period, trialed by Royal Hort Soc England in1887,reintroduced to England in1970's from Gatersleben Gene Bank. &&&& No mention of nipples and I went back to Bill Minkey's listing and he said nothing about nipples either,his source was Norbert in France, as I described above and I'm pretty sure that my seeds were from Bill and I don't remember any nipples either,just the tough skin. Carolyn |
Carolyn, the translation, albeit awkward, is below.
If someone could edit the translation from Italian to English a bit better...an early thanks! It sounds like the King Umberto was dropped from a national listing due to a problem of synonyms, not to say we have problems in this country. lol. Tomatoes with the same name, homonymic, but actually different varieties...may be the issue. A variety can be more popular by name than by the actual tomato seed. [QUOTE][I]"The king Umberto is one of the few national tomatoes at that time which was appreciated and cultivated in half of the wor[/I]ld." [/QUOTE]The question I have is...Are some of the Humbert, Humberto, Umberto collections more like San Marzano or the more oval Umberto? [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/yIMmC0m.png?1%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/yIMmC0m.png?1[/IMG[/URL]] [CENTER][CENTER][FONT="]King Umberto, a tomato in exile [/FONT][/CENTER] [/CENTER] [QUOTE]I began to discover the existence of the tomato King Umberto reading a rehash of the wonderful book of Vilmorin-Andrieux "The Vegetable Garden" which in turn was the American edition of a book published previously in France by this family of seed companies, whose name stands still today. Printed the first time in 1885, it was a collection of news on biodiversities semi commercial at that time spread between the two continents, and describes hundreds of plants with meticulous care, giving also information on their culinary usage and the culture to which they were linked. Also contains information on the techniques of agriculture before the days of chemistry. Contemplating the engravings on this book of the ancient plants i was dazzled by the changeable forms that the biodiversitdipinge on the palette of the fields and i have asked perchabbiamo lost all this without doing anything, without intervening before. For a long time i waited that arise some initiative in Italy that followed the example of seed savers in the rest of the world and offer my collaboration, but in vain. For this reason alone I broke the delay and i felt was appropriate to launch my proposals. AND the history of tomato King Umberto seems to be made specially for you to understand what happened to the old varietche without us are defenseless. The king Umberto one of the few national tomatoes at that time was appreciated and cultivated in half of the world. This is the main reason to put it back on the book of Vilmorin. This same tomato found him in the some time even on a whole series of old catalogs of the catalog (Sgaravatti)? Tideland Signal Limited company ranging from 1910 to 1940, received on loan from a collector. The descriptions some synthetic dedicated to him described him as a "must": no catalog could do without him. The image shown on the catalogs was always the same as the book of Vilmorin: a nice tomato from dark oval shape. Also the captions were always very generous. But where today the tomato King Umberto? I began to ask him at my cooperative of seed growers. One of the engineers was remembered to have seen him in a field test of the ETOILE PEREIRE in the midst of hundreds more. But puancora purchase? Where can I find it? Was wondering if anyone without that nobody i knew respond. On commercial catalogs available to me there was no and i began to suspect that it was also deleted him from official registers. Cosper short approached the question to an official of the ministry to know what company seed nor might preserve purity the seed. Dear the negative response: "This year the King Umberto was deleted. "As cleared, but a tomato historical, has more than centoventanni. You know that was called cosdal name of the King that unified Italy? "Yes of course, but the problem that the seed companies that were selling, made into the sachets at breakie seeds of tomatoes that resemble but were not King Umberto and then THE ETOILE PEREIRE nor has decreed that the deletion". "But I hope that in seed banks there is still a sample." "Unfortunately we gicercato and not if it finds" "But then you are telling me that due to the lack of controls pudefinire extinct." "Perhaps it still find ourselves, then we are proposing to seed companies." Then phone the Etoile Pereire, the ministerial component that should have monitored the distribution in purity also of this cultivar, and I confirm that everything. Then I called the bank half of arcades that the only to have a collection of italian tomatoes and curator i responds that "the King Umberto then cossimile to S. Marzano. What's the problem? "But she has never seen that S. Marzano slightly squared and and umbonate profiles and King Umberto perfectly oval? "For me are the same thing". "Then the king Umberto does not exist: but then what they sold the catalogs of the Tideland Signal Limited in the past? "It is a matter of synonyms". The evidences are under the eyes of all instead: the official catalog shows the different types of S. Marzano but never defines the King Umberto as homonym. The fact that no one wants to admit that a varietche is part of the Italian history has been lost due to negligence, perchchi was paid to monitor or to preserve has not done so. Which solution puadottare a seed saver (as me that I subscribe to Seed Savers Exchange 45$ sob! I pay)? Simple: open the yearbook of the seeds in an exchange where there was always a place for the King Humbert Tomato collected in Italy in the years '50 is still kept by several members of the network. A Christmas list, $2 and the tomato in exile back more quickly that the males of the house of Savoy. And this summer he grew up in my garden, patiently enduring two months of drought the poor soil and stony of my hill, the few cures of the undersigned that transforms always the garden in a survival camp, giving despite all good fruits ovals, and dark red as in the engravings of 115 years ago. Great for dry and sauce, vigorous plants, too, if you want the seeds not harrassment in a row that i have not for all. Thanks seed savers, thanks Earth, through Heaven. It takes me a little to be happy, but that satisfaction. [CENTER][CENTER][I]Alberto Olivucci [/I] President of CiviltContadina June 30, 2003 [/CENTER] [/CENTER] [/QUOTE][QUOTE]When Olivucci writes: if you want the seeds do not harrassment in a row that I do not have for all you can trust him: last year gave it i wondered, me li has promised me he sent (the elbow macaroni can infestargli the ortho!!! ). I've had at last this year, by another member of CiviltContadina. AND having cosavuto way to accommodate myself to my garden the King Umberto, can I add that I don't see how it might be confused with the San Marzano. Suffice it to say the photography reported in opening page, that plays a sample of the harvest, for realizing it. In addition, on a treaty the years '50 the two varietsono both cited as precisely[I] two[/I] varietdistinte. It is worth to carry the pitch, that between the tomatoes to keep lists: The San Marzano, originating in the province of Salerno, cylindrical, elongated, with two lateral depressions parallel along 6-8 cm with flesh , red-alive, a few seeds and peel red-alive; And a few lines below: Between the tomatoes from Serbian, much sought after in the South, are prevalent Fiascone or King Umberto, the Fiaschetto, or tomato sauce a bunch of Nocera; the bulb, which probably derived from San Marzano; ( ... ) These varietdebbono be late and matured on the tree eradicated and hung in a dry place and possibly sunny; usually hanging to the houses on the walls facing south ( * ). Therefore not only two varietdiverse but also belonging to two classes of varietdiverse, preserves the one, by Serbian the other. But don't try everything cisu treaties and catalogs contemporaries: as you rightly note Olivucci, King Umberto have lost track. [CENTER][CENTER][I]Philip Eugenio Tontini [/I][/CENTER] [/CENTER] ( * ) Enrico Pantanelli, [I]herbaceous crops[/I], Agricultural Editions, Bologna, 1955 [/QUOTE]Tideland Signal is likely a poor translation ... [IMG][URL="http://i.imgur.com/weuIHdi.png?1%5b/IMG"]http://i.imgur.com/weuIHdi.png?1[/IMG[/URL]] [QUOTE]Tideland Signal Limited company ranging from 1910 to 1940 catalog Sgaravatti [/QUOTE [QUOTE]Tomato seed of the variety fiascone translates to little flagons. Aka pitchers [/QUOTE]Like San Marzano? Fiaschetto as pictured below...means flask. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/8EQF8re.png?1[/IMG] The cross I made with King Umberto pollen was to Flaming Burst. Flaming Burst is a teardrop or droplet shaped tomato. Crossing a [URL="http://www.englishdictionaryonline.org/italian/italian.asp?word=Gocciolina"]Gocciolina[/URL] = Droplet or Teardrop = Lacrima to a fiaschetto or fiascone shape is going to come up with a variety of shapes in the F-2. Luck will have it that I will find even new shapes eventually. Whatever historic tomato clone King Umberto derives from is of no real concern excepting keeping the record straight. Ooh...I just got a message from my source for the KIng Umberto...it was Underwood/Terroir The selection I have should look like this... [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xYdOcd5.jpg[/IMG] |
Tom, I don't have time to make but a few comments since my surgery is scheduled for this week and I have lots of other priorities right now/
While the Underwood link, which is one I also have, shows what they call King Humbert and speak of Vilmorin, what is shown at Vilmorin, as I typed above, are square looking fruits that are often seen, not what Underwood and some others show. There was one of your links, I don't remember which one, that did show square looking fruits. In my 2013 seed offer,seeds produced in the summer of 2012, there were three small red cherries offered; Durmitor, from Serbia Nano Cilega, fromItaly Fiaschetto, from Italy I had all three grown at home here in 2012 and in my notes I say that Fiaschetto was a small red cherry with a nipple, not square, nothing like that/ Nano Cilega was a small red cherry/ And the best tasting one was Durmitor,also a small red cherry, from Serbia. I put up a performance thread each Fall I make a seed offe r so that folks can report back what they got, how they liked it,many show pictures, so we'll see what others got for Fiaschetto. I know already that there was probably crossed seed for Durmitor, and I'm curious to see what others got for that one. Here's my seed offer for 2013, seeds produced in 2012, just so you can take a Look if you want to. [URL]http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=26028[/URL] The Italians keep insisting that King Humbert originated in Italy, I can understand why, but that goes against the Ventmarin info that says it was named in the US in honor of King Umberto. Yes, presumably something brought to the US by Italian immigrants, but unnamed, which was so true of so many seeds brought to the US by immigrants from many countries. But what Underwood is selling, and refers to Vilmorin, is not what Vilmorin says it should be and I'm glad I copied word for word what was in the Vilmorin English edition of 1885, which I've had for many years. No nipples were shown on the line drawings from Vilmorin, as noted in what I copied from the description. So what questions remain? As I said, you did have one link that showed, in color, the square shape of what Roi Umberto is supposed to be, but I don't have time to go back and note which one it was. Carolyn |
The only tomatoes I know of that can be used as winter pantry types are from Italy. King Humbert fills the bill.
DarJones |
Went out to the tomato plot where I did most of my crossing. Picked over seventy different hybrids with the string tags attached. Even found another variety coded 32 with a single fruit which has King Umberto as a male parent.
As I was talking on the phone with Stephen Scott co owner of [I]Terroir Seeds[/I]...the seed source for my single plant of King Umberto....I found that plant and took a picture of it. This photo will stand as the prototype or standard of what I had used. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3ceIJpO.jpg?2[/IMG] It looks like the one on Terroir's page and not at all squared off as a Marzano would be...no neck and a distinct nipple on the bed end. Any other strain or variety passing as Rey Humberto or other spelling is a moot point now. All of my breeding lines will emancipate from the Terroir line. |
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I see, that discussion continue. I add by that time only this picture (King Umberto in the illustrations kept to the Museum of the Royal Palace of Portici).
Vladimír |
[QUOTE=Fusion_power;373244]The only tomatoes I know of that can be used as winter pantry types are from Italy. King Humbert fills the bill.
DarJones[/QUOTE] Darrel, there are many winter "hanging" ones from Spain as well. Here's a Google search; [URL]http://www.google.com/#fp=927651d2b2410d8f&q=spanish+winter+tomatoes&start=0[/URL] And on the second page of that search here's a link to Alan B's site where he's discussing the gene involved with winter types and talks about the Spanish ones, and you participated in that thread so maybe you forgot about the Spanish ones. [URL]http://alanbishop.★★★★★★★★★.com/thread/7115[/URL] It doesn't surpise me that it was mentioned that the winter ones no doubt appeared in Spain first b'c that's where the Spanish brought back the first ones from Mexico and the first ones were yellow. Red ones then eventually appeared in Spain and it was Spanish missionaries who took them to Italy. Yes. Italy also had some of those first yellow ones from Spain as well, as in Pomodoro, aka pomme de Oro, aka Apple of Gold. Andrew Smith's book on the history of the tomato does an excellent job of outlining where tomatoes were distributed by the Spanish after taking them from Mexico. [URL="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=andrew+Smith+tomatoes"]http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=andrew+Smith+tomatoes[/URL] Andy has written many interesting books as well as being a large contibutor of that Oxford Encyclopedia that's listed. His expertise has been histories of different items we eat [URL]http://alanbishop.★★★★★★★★★.com/thread/7115[/URL] Yes, longkeeper types are discussed in the above link as well, but also discussed specifically are the ones that are hung up as winter ones. Carolyn Edited to add that I'm sorry that the one link was disabled twice, but you can find it on the second page of the general Google link that I also linked to. |
[QUOTE=Tom Wagner;373249]Went out to the tomato plot where I did most of my crossing. Picked over seventy different hybrids with the string tags attached. Even found another variety coded 32 with a single fruit which has King Umberto as a male parent.
As I was talking on the phone with Stephen Scott co owner of [I]Terroir Seeds[/I]...the seed source for my single plant of King Umberto....I found that plant and took a picture of it. This photo will stand as the prototype or standard of what I had used. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3ceIJpO.jpg?2[/IMG] It looks like the one on Terroir's page and not at all squared off as a Marzano would be...no neck and a distinct nipple on the bed end. Any other strain or variety passing as Rey Humberto or other spelling is a moot point now. All of my breeding lines will emancipate from the Terroir line.[/QUOTE] A moot point for you Tom, but not to some of us.:) I know the Terroir site, nee Underwood, and have received correspondence from them asking me to send varieties for trial. But since I already did so to several seed sites I didn't take on this one as well, and in addition had my reasons for doing that. Carolyn |
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/SZqVg5R.png[/IMG]
The picture above is the fruit extracted for seed. It will represent my introgression of this clone/variety/version into the hybrids and OP recombinants. A notation will be added to the pedigree that Terroir was the source....not Chiswich Red, not [SIZE=2]PI 131880 [/SIZE][SIZE=2] from Argentina [/SIZE][SIZE=2][B]('Rey Humberto'). [/B]If someone wants me to use a different version of Humberto/Umberto in breeding..send me that seed! Below is a picture of my creation FLAMING BURST. It has a teardrop shape which might be interesting in the hybrid that I made with it and King Umberto (Terroir). [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fafdcC8.png?1[/IMG] The Flaming Burst retains the green gel around the seed due to the linkage with Verde Claro background. The fruit has that aromatic, sweet taste of Flammee and the sweet "grassy" flavor of Verde Claro. The hybrid of FB and King Umberto (Terroir) could be called "UMBELIEVABLE" or "Umbilical Discord" as a way to honor the many history buffs on the Humberto series of historical tomato varieties. [/SIZE] |
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[QUOTE=Tom Wagner;373315][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/SZqVg5R.png[/IMG]
The picture above is the fruit extracted for seed. It will represent my introgression of this clone/variety/version into the hybrids and OP recombinants. A notation will be added to the pedigree that Terroir was the source....not Chiswich Red, not [SIZE=2]PI 131880 [/SIZE][SIZE=2] from Argentina [/SIZE][SIZE=2][B]('Rey Humberto'). [/B]If someone wants me to use a different version of Humberto/Umberto in breeding..send me that seed! Below is a picture of my creation FLAMING BURST. It has a teardrop shape which might be interesting in the hybrid that I made with it and King Umberto (Terroir). [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fafdcC8.png?1[/IMG] The Flaming Burst retains the green gel around the seed due to the linkage with Verde Claro background. The fruit has that aromatic, sweet taste of Flammee and the sweet "grassy" flavor of Verde Claro. The hybrid of FB and King Umberto (Terroir) could be called "UMBELIEVABLE" or "Umbilical Discord" as a way to honor the many history buffs on the Humberto series of historical tomato varieties. [/SIZE][/QUOTE] I am sorry, I look at that tomato and I see more Principe Borghese than Re Umberto. Vladimír |
Since Terroir Seeds also carries [B]Principe Borghese[/B]....it makes me wonder how closely related the Italian tomatoes are. What exchange of genetic material occurred over the years in years in so many places and so many years?
|
Tom, I couldn't sleep, too much on my mind right now, so went back and reread this thread.
You asked about backgrounds, others experiences with it, said you were already working with it and never said your source was Terroir seeds until post #19; So I am not at all surprised that you said the seeds you got from them would be your prototype. However, when I looked at the pictures from those catalogs at Ventmarin, I see squared off fruits in most of them. When I look at the Vilmorin description, which I copied to here, I see mention of squared off ones When I look at the pictures that Vladimir put up I see squared off ones. When I look at Dee's picture I see squared off ones. You asked anyone to send you true seeds, but you'd already started your project with the Terrior seeds.I think it's reasonable to conclude that Dee's seeds might well have come from Bill Minkey from an SSE Yearbook, as were mine, and Bill got them from Norbert in France in that huge trade we did in 1992. Summary? I'm speaking only for myself here, obviously, but I can't help thinking that Vladimir might agree with me, and that's that seeds for fruits that could be, and were squared off were available, but that you are no longer an SSE member who gets the annual yearbooks, so didn't know of the listings for it for quite a few years now, so just concentrated on what you could get commercially, which were the seeds from Terrior. Tania listed three sources for 2013 as well, but I didn't check that out, and I didn't remember to check out her seed sources prior to 2013 except to note that she She didn't list Terrior. OK, back to bed, perchance to dream.:) Carolyn |
The tomato King Umberto is an old Italian variety, selected in the nineteenth century, whose name is a tribute to King Umberto I of Italy, for his first visit to Naples in 1878. It is an excellent tomato sauce and preserves, but also from Serbia: at the end of the season if they estirpavano plants and was put on the walls facing south, to dry them.
[url]http://oryctesblog.blogspot.cz/2012/09/orto-antico-il-pomodoro-re-umberto.html[/url] I think, that tomato Re Umberto has two history from 1878 year. One is history comercial ( the bigining Vilmorin) and second is a less interesting history, which farmers wrote on the root of Vesuvio. Maybe Re Umberto is planting there in some small hamlet where farmers bought seeds never. We possibly don´t fight out this problem on the internet. [url]http://www.agricoltura.regione.campania.it/tipici/piennolo.html[/url] Vladimír |
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