Heirlooms NOT to grow!
 

I am wondering if there are many of the older varieties (hybrid or heirloom)that you have experienced growing and tasting that you think fell into obscurity for good reason. Looking, for example, at the history of apples there were many of the older varieties that were grown solely because they were hard as rocks and able to endure the problems of the early days of shipping with no refrigeration, long periods in transport, lack of refrigerated/gassed warrehouses, etc., even though the flavor was often referenced as biting into sawdust or cardboard. The old Ben Davis comes to mind. Others simply were constantly problem plagued with insects and disease. Are there any of the old tomato varieties that will always stand out in your mind as varieties to be avoided whether due to lack of flavor or productivity, or simply too problem plagued? Any of the older varieties that one should know before attempting that WILL require considerable and constant care and special efforts? NOT in any way a shot at heirlooms; just curious.

tomatoes
 

[quote=mensplace;149818]I am wondering if there are many of the older varieties (hybrid or heirloom)that you have experienced growing and tasting that you think fell into obscurity for good reason. Looking, for example, at the history of apples there were many of the older varieties that were grown solely because they were hard as rocks and able to endure the problems of the early days of shipping with no refrigeration, long periods in transport, lack of refrigerated/gassed warrehouses, etc., even though the flavor was often referenced as biting into sawdust or cardboard. The old Ben Davis comes to mind. Others simply were constantly problem plagued with insects and disease. Are there any of the old tomato varieties that will always stand out in your mind as varieties to be avoided whether due to lack of flavor or productivity, or simply too problem plagued? Any of the older varieties that one should know before attempting that WILL require considerable and constant care and special efforts? NOT in any way a shot at heirlooms; just curious.[/quote]

I will not grow Roughwood Golden plum, Black Triffle, yellow pear, Brown Berry. Real spitters and Red Pear. Oh and none of the stuffers.

Icelord:twisted:

You have to have a special market / want to grow the stuffers. I had thought chefs woulf like them for the chicken salad stuffed tomato that is on a lot of menus. But most of the stuffers I've tried are too small.

But the rest of Iceloard's list shows how hard it is to ask for a list like this. What 1 person thinks is a spitter, another thinks is great.

Personally I liked Roughwood Golden Plum (it made a great tomato juice) and a grower at Madison raves about Black Trifele. But I do agree that Brown Berry is rather tasteless compared to Chocolate Cherry and especially Black Cherry, the best of that group.

Carol

It's an interesting exercise, because due to personal taste, how a particular variety does in a particular season in a particular garden, or whether someone is growing the variety that they think they are (they could get crossed or mixed up seed) will lead to a very mixed outcome....and some people's spitters will be other people's favorites!

But...if there were some frequent repeaters, then it is a pretty good bet that it is one that will not be favored by most!

These are OP tomatoes I've not liked very much for any reason (appearance or flavor)

Baxter Bush Cherry
Bellstar
Sabre -
Hungarian Italian
Banana Legs
German Garden Time
Micado Violettor
Una Harsock's Beefsteak
Magellan Burgess Purple
Hank
Sasha's Altai
Perestroika
Hungarian
Frank Williams
Elisa
Ridge
Packard
Speakeasy
Glasnost
Aker's Oxheart
Muchamiel (horrendous!)
Golden Glory
Alpha
King George
Queen Mary
Early Ruby
Essex Wonder
Excelcior
Amber colored
Oak
Black Plum
Silvery Fir Tree (Carrot Like)
Triumph
Beauty of Lorraine
Azure
Abel
Victorian Dwarf #1
Earliest of All
Dwarf Recessive
Orange Tree
Heterosis (truly awful)
Whittemore
Black Brandywine
Yellow Pear
Isis
Bull Heart
Green Grape (determinate)

and I love to look at, but not necessary eat, the large bicolors, the vast majority of which I find to be very bland (only exceptions - Little Lucky and Lucky Cross)

location
 

You are right about the location Craig, green grape here was very rich and sweet, Isis candy is always a winner I would have thought the chefs would have loved the stuffers also, but one bite and back to the truck! we also had a very cold summer, perhaps stating if a tomato is sweet or more savory would be a better description, but again something that taste bad there may be a winner in these parts!!

Dean

What about those that might have simply been too problem prone due to growing or lack of actual fruit production. I have read many here who shared stories of varieties that might have provided one or two actual tomatoes..are they really worth the room and effort?

According to Pollans book ,old Johnny Appleseed only grew from seed so his apples were all over the place and wouldn't have conformed to the parent type .Didn't matter if you couldn't eat them , as the early pioneers only made the apples into booze and moonshine . It was a requirement that land settlers plant 50 trees as an orchard before gaining title ,so guess which smart entrepeneur sold them the trees----ole Johnny Appleseed . Grown on land he bought so he died a property millionaire ! All that other schmaltzy nonsense about him was made up by Disneyland for a cartoon .Some of his heirloom apples would have been unusable by modern standards .

[quote=huxter09;149857]According to Pollans book ,old Johnny Appleseed only grew from seed so his apples were all over the place and wouldn't have conformed to the parent type .Didn't matter if you couldn't eat them , as the early pioneers only made the apples into booze and moonshine . It was a requirement that land settlers plant 50 trees as an orchard before gaining title ,so guess which smart entrepeneur sold them the trees----ole Johnny Appleseed . Grown on land he bought so he died a property millionaire ! All that other schmaltzy nonsense about him was made up by Disneyland for a cartoon .Some of his heirloom apples would have been unusable by modern standards .[/quote]
Many are quick to say that all apples produced from seed are bad. That is just plain wrong. Seedlings can excel their parents. It's just that with so many varities available for pollenation today, most seeds will be some kind of cross...but, maybe a better cross. Johnny was very real and those apples he sowed fed meany a family when there was nothing else available. Today, there are over 4000 varieties. The Red Delicious did much for the industry, but surely led to most here ...up until about 15 years ago...having little knowledge of the true breadth of flavors and textures. Kind of like heirloom tomatoes and other vegetables. Each time I go to one of the MEGA international markets near Atlanta I see new vegetables that have long been enjoyed around the world. Interestingly, seeing the videos from India and Japan today on vegetable grafting kind of opened my eyes to new means of addressing disease...use rootstocks that are not susceptible!

I won't bother with Old German ever again.

I am wondering if there are many of the older varieties (hybrid or heirloom)that you have experienced growing and tasting that you think fell into obscurity for good reason,

*****

You asked specifically about the older varieties which in my mind means OP varieties from the late 1800's up to maybe the early 40's when hybrids were first made available.

And I've grown many of those older varieties, whether Livingston varieties or others, and some were great, others not so good and others I wouldn't grow again.

But I've also found over the years that any variety I might like very much another person doesn't. And vice versa. So I have no list to give as to which of those older varieties aren't worth growing.

If you have specific varieties in mind please mention them here and perhaps others here might have grown them and could at least express their own opinions with the eternal caveat that what one person likes another may not.

And for sure many that were know in past times are now deemed extinct, and since they are extinct there's nothing I or anyone else can say about them. Why they became extinct could be related to newer better varieties being introduced, changes in what was considered popular, seeds for such varieties no longer being in production so loss of availability.

Can you grow a variety of tomato one time and think it not worth another year? I am thinking not. Our growing saeson last year was a bust to say the least. Clodest July on record here in north east IN. I plant a good number of newbies every year and will plant some of the "not so good" ones from last year agian in 2010 to see what I get. Hoping for the best.

Paul R

[quote=Paul R;149978]Can you grow a variety of tomato one time and think it not worth another year? I am thinking not. Our growing saeson last year was a bust to say the least. Clodest July on record here in north east IN. I plant a good number of newbies every year and will plant some of the "not so good" ones from last year agian in 2010 to see what I get. Hoping for the best.

Paul R[/quote]

Paul. if I grow a variety that others have praised and I know the person and their likes, or if it's a brand new variety that I've received that no one has grown before, and it doesn't perform well in one year, whether it be the weather or whatever, I definitely will grow it another year.

I guess what you're asking is whether or not I've grown some varieties that DID perform well and would never grow them again, and that would be primarily due to taste. Yes, I have.

But I don't mention them in this thread or anywhere, b'c as I said above, what I don't like someone else will, and vice versa.

I think as Carolyn said in post 10, that if an old variety was too problem prone and didn't have GREAT taste, those are the varieties that are no longer available. You won't have problems growing them as you can't find them any more.

For the most part those that have survived the years did so because they tasted good to someone. Often the taste is worth the fact that maybe they don't grow so well all the time or in all parts of the country.

Just because maybe YOU don't like the taste, doesn't mean that it won't be MY fav. That's the problem/joy with all these diferent tomatoes. What I think is great, maybe doesn't fit your tastes and vice versa. But there will always be SOMETHING that will be the perfect tomato for most everyone.

I had a family of Mom & Dad and boy and girl at my field day last summer. After tasting what we had on the tables they walked the field and tasted some of the smaller tomatoes out there too. When they were done, Mom said that son had always claimed he didn't like tomatoes. But he found several varieties he DID like there. He just hadn't tasted the RIGHT tomatoes before.

It may take you a few years, but you should be able to find several varieties that are just right for you. If you happen to be near any of the various tomato fest doings, attend some and try the samples. It could shorten your quest.

Carol

But then again there are those that are seemingly newer to the market. I grew Orange Fleshed Purple Smudge this year. And while it was one of my most beautiful and productive varieties, the flavor was bland and mealy. So I would not grow it again for myself... but there again My Grandmother liked Mealy tasting tomatoes......

[quote=DuckCreekFarms;150006]But then again there are those that are seemingly newer to the market. I grew Orange Fleshed Purple Smudge this year. And while it was one of my most beautiful and productive varieties, the flavor was bland and mealy. So I would not grow it again for myself... but there again My Grandmother liked Mealy tasting tomatoes......[/quote]

But Purple Smudge and Orange Fleshed Purple Smudge are not heirlooms, by any stretch of the imagination. The history of them is known in terms of grafting/mutation and they wouldn't be known as Legacy of Yesteryear Varieties.:)

has anyone ever grown a white tomato called Bianca Grande? I bought seed from Mariseeds and grew it out and it is supposed to have a raspberry swirl in the center. It has not done very well here in Florida but I am trying one last time right now. This tomato she told me was supposed to be as sweet as cotton candy! I have my reservations. lol

Sounds like a awful high birx number to reach cotton candy sweetness. LOL

A woman I know tried a recipe for spaghetti sauce that her great grandmother made. The recipe told her to put in two cups of sugar, she thought it was a little much, but she put in anyway and ended up with a sickly sweet mess.

She said she felt a little better when I told her that most of the older varieties were usually tart. Another woman said she had seen her grandmother eating tomatoes with mayonnaise and sugar because the tomatoes she had grown up with were so tart.

I tried a few varieties that were supposed to be very old varieties and was really underwhelmed. They were completely inedible if they weren't cooked.

It is my understanding that sweetness was bred into the modern tomatoes so many of the really old varieties would not match modern tastes.

LoreD

Actually, most of the older varieties have much more apparent sweetness 9- or are at least on a par with newer varieties.

I know that Stokes supposedly bred additional sweetness into some of their hybrids, but it was really more about ensuring that tomatoes commercially grown and picked at the break stage (just a bit beyond green) had better flavor than most of the grocery store tomatoes. I grew a few and was quite underwhelmed!

i grown golden medal at home and i simply love the flawor, mom simply cant eath it because of the too sweet taste, dad simply denied to taste it because of the orange /streaked color...
but i continue to grown it!
wath i dont grown aain? roma tomatoes my dad grown it because is largely commercial avaiable, but after he try an heirloom paste from an old man that live near me.... no more roma tomatoes in the patch!

Hi Cortona! Good to see you here~!

Heirlooms I wouldn't bother with again include Nyagous, Yellow Pear, Large Red Cherry, Hillbilly Potato Leaf, Dixie Golden Giant, Shah Mikado and Dwarf Gold Champion.

There are many other more recently created varieties, either open pollinated commercial varieties or stuff masquerading as heirlooms, that I wouldn't bother with again. But the question was to which heirlooms I wouldn't repeat.

[QUOTE=travis;157469]Heirlooms I wouldn't bother with again include Nyagous, Yellow Pear, Large Red Cherry, Hillbilly Potato Leaf, Dixie Golden Giant, Shah Mikado and Dwarf Gold Champion.

There are many other more recently created varieties, either open pollinated commercial varieties or stuff masquerading as heirlooms, that I wouldn't bother with again. But the question was to which heirlooms I wouldn't repeat.[/QUOTE]

I haven't found any heirlooms yet that weren't worth a repeat. I have found many hybrids that I won't grow because of their taste or lack thereof. The reason why some of the heirlooms don't get too many repeats is that some have little disease tolerance and I live in an area that demands disease tolerance if you want to eat homegrown tomatoes.
That's why I usually have a few Big Beefs for insurance. I have yet to have a year that they didn't make good.
This may be the year that I get some heirlooms not fit to try again due to lack of taste because I'm trying nearly 50 new varieties. I'm trying Royal Hillbilly; I hope it's not the same as Hillbilly Potato Leaf.

I grew " Heart of Compassion" three years running and it sucked! So I gave some started plants to a friend who lives in Montana and guess what...it STILL SUCKED. The description was this:
[quote]

A huge, 4 to 5-inch, slightly flattened, jade-pink, heart-shaped, very meaty heirloom tomato with thin skin, few seeds and terrific taste. Sure to become one of your favored garden ‘jewels.” 78 Days
[/quote]

Sounds PERFECT doesn't it? For a tomato dryer like me, this would be the
ultimate drying tomato (I hate that word "ultimate"...) I REALLY wanted that tomato...For me, it was NEVER larger than three inches, late, late, late and the flavor was humdrum.
I tried new seed the second year and I planted them in an entirely different area in my garden (my garden encompasses about 2 acres, separated into different growing zones/areas.) It again gave me the finger...

It is supposed to look like this:
[IMG]http://store.tomatofest.com/v/vspfiles/photos/TF-0237-2T.jpg[/IMG]

I officially HATE this tomato that is like a recalcitrant child who fails to live up to it's full potential. I none-the-less STILL WANT THIS TOMATO...uuggghhhh :cry:
My Husband says it has now become a battle of wills...me and the tomato toe-to-toe...so far, the tomato is thrashing me...:?:

[quote=b54red;157473] I'm trying Royal Hillbilly; I hope it's not the same as Hillbilly Potato Leaf.[/quote]

First of all, I agree 100% about Big Beef. Great tomato.

Royal Hillbilly is nothing like Hillbilly Potato Leaf at least in my limited experience with both.

Hillbilly Potato Leaf failed to set fruit at the slightest spat of bad weather. Royal Hillbilly laughed at foul weather conditions and produced oodles of tomatoes start to finish. Some were small but most were half to 3/4 pounders.

Only negative things I have to say about Royal Hillbilly is their flavor can be a little washed out in wet weather, but what tomato is not, and the outside fruit walls are a bit thinner than I like in a tomato. That can be a problem when the seeds and gel are too close to the outside and the weather stays wet.

Once the weather dries out and stays hot, Royal Hillbilly developed consistently sound fruit with an outstanding, bold, old fashioned tomato flavor in a beautiful deep pink fruit.

So, what about tomatoes that you would never grow again because they were just too hard to grow? They needed too much babying, or for whatever reason just were too much trouble? Which varieties have been the hardest to grow for ya?

B54red and Travis
Have you ever grown the Big Beef OP version?

Dennis

Mr. Stripey. Bleah.

RJ - I grew Old German last year and had terrific results. It was extremely late, but still set fruit and in fact was setting fruit much further into the Texas summer heat than any of the other varieties I grew (admittedly only 6 other varieties). It got me through August when all other plants were done in July. It produced enormous (biggest was almost 2 pounds) bi-color fruit that was almost all meat and hardly any gel. My friends and family all enjoyed the taste, which was admittedly not as good as my favorites, but still very tasty, including some nuances/essences of other fruits and was unlike any tomato I've grown.

In short, if you've only grown it once, maybe give it one more try in a different year and see if it does any better for you.

I agree with Dewayne about Old German..I have been growing it for a number of years now and it is always a fav.of mine..It is a big beautiful meaty bi-color..I think it has superb taste..:)

[quote=cortona;156851]i grown golden medal at home and i simply love the flawor, mom simply cant eath it because of the too sweet taste, dad simply denied to taste it because of the orange /streaked color...
but i continue to grown it!
wath i dont grown aain? roma tomatoes my dad grown it because is largely commercial avaiable, but after he try an heirloom paste from an old man that live near me.... no more roma tomatoes in the patch![/quote]

Cortona- this sound like a great tomato to me. I make sauce every year. I am on a quest for my ultimate paste tomato.

Jen