Micro-tomato crosses
 

Seem to be a few folks working independently on these. I'll post my crosses and the current filial generation below with pictures as available.

Here are my 2012 micro crosses. I'm at F3 plants on some, F1 plants on others. Some are going to be more like the dwarfs, not micros.

Chibikko x Sungold F1
Chibikko x Green Zebra
Chibikko x Dr. Carolyn
(Chibikko x Green Zebra) F1 x (Chibikko x Sungold F1) F1
Hardin's Miniature x Carbon
Hardin's Miniature x Dr. Carolyn
Hardin's Miniature x Chocolate Cherry
Red Robin x Rose Quartz (?)
Red Robin x Dr. Carolyn
Red Robin x Orange Santa F1
Red Robin x Chocolate Cherry
Red Robin x Sungold F1
Red Robin x Green Zebra
Yellow Dwf x Sungold F1
Yellow Dwf x Orange Santa F1

Ok mine will all be f1's. Maybe I could grow some of the f1's out this fall in the greenhouse.

Tiny Tim and Red Robin crossed with the following:

Green Giant
Kosovo
Desters
Jd's c tex
Purple and Pink BB
Blush
Green doctors mystery cross f3 (GWR cherry beefsteaks)

Damon
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

This year I am doing Mohamed x

Sungold F1
Lemon Drop
Gru Vee
Blue Pitts
Pink BumbleBee
Blush


Some of the initial crosses did not take, so I have to recross, but I am excited about some of the f2 possibilities. As the year progresses, I might do a few others.

I also have a dwarf husky cherry to do some dwarf indeterminate crosses, but I haven't got around to them yet.

I am more interested in getting to the f2s of the Mohamed crosses by later this season so that I might find a few micro plants to grow inside this winter.

Hmmm...Red Robin X Green Giant. I really would love to see the specimen that has the one pound fruit on the 6 inch tall plant!

Damon, if you need any help microdwarf hunting, let me know!

[QUOTE=nctomatoman;353805]Hmmm...Red Robin X Green Giant. I really would love to see the specimen that has the one pound fruit on the 6 inch tall plant!
[/QUOTE]:twisted::?::no::dizzy:

I had the same mental picture when I crossed Hardin's Miniature with Carbon!

[QUOTE=nctomatoman;353805]Hmmm...Red Robin X Green Giant. I really would love to see the specimen that has the one pound fruit on the 6 inch tall plant!

Damon, if you need any help microdwarf hunting, let me know![/QUOTE]

One of the crosses with Green Zebra. Pretty little red and yellow striped cherry. Better pictures tomorrow of the rest of the lines.

Great thread, love the sound of some of these crosses and can't wait for updates :)
Hope this is not out of place here, my pictures are a bit random I'm afraid but here's a link to some I'm growing.
[url]http://s1193.photobucket.com/user/jayb35/library/Small%20Mini%20and%20Micro%20Dwarfs[/url]

Your crosses? Mydwfa looks particularly nice! I'm also using NSL187009 this year for the variegation.




[QUOTE=Jayc;354352]Great thread, love the sound of some of these crosses and can't wait for updates :)
Hope this is not out of place here, my pictures are a bit random I'm afraid but here's a link to some I'm growing.
[URL]http://s1193.photobucket.com/user/jayb35/library/Small%20Mini%20and%20Micro%20Dwarfs[/URL][/QUOTE]

Yes, my crosses. Thanks, some of the earlier fruit with those ones was seedless which is disappointing, the GWR taste is great though. I've got several lines of siblings, mostly F3 and F4's. I think I crossed Chibikko x Mydwfa (F2), I'm possibly growing an F1? Soon as I catch up with stuff I'll try and get organised and do a list of crosses.

I found NSL187099 not the easiest to grow and it set only a few fruit last year, perhaps not suited to UK summers and last was particularly cool and wet.

Here are the F2 fruits of Chibikko x Green Zebra. Still waiting for a couple more.

Wow nice looking stuff guys! Jay those blues look visually stunning!

I've slowed down the last few days with all the crosses I've done. Now looking around the plants to see which crosses have taken. Looks good so far but still waiting on some flowers to fruit.

Damon

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

That striped cherry is lovely! How does it taste?

If anyone needs a grower-outer, send me a PM. I have a bunch of pots too small for regular plants that I need to fill! :)


Tl

The flavor of the striped one is pretty good, not too sweet! The skin is a bit thicker than I'd like but they dont crack. That one is definitely going forward as is the darker colored F2-10.


[QUOTE=tlintx;354604]That striped cherry is lovely! How does it taste?

If anyone needs a grower-outer, send me a PM. I have a bunch of pots too small for regular plants that I need to fill! :)


Tl[/QUOTE]

I'd love to see some photos of the plants from these. How tall are they turning out to be? If you guys need somebody to help grow some out next season (or even starting now for inside during the Fall/Winter) let me know!

Hi Robin. From this cross the three determinates I got are topping out at about 13" tall in a 6" pot. The indeterminates will be more like the dwarf project size. I am going to advance each type for different uses.

Some of the indeterminates will also give determinates in the next generation. I'd love to get a det. on that striped!


[QUOTE=RobinB;354761]I'd love to see some photos of the plants from these. How tall are they turning out to be? If you guys need somebody to help grow some out next season (or even starting now for inside during the Fall/Winter) let me know![/QUOTE]

Great crosses, gives me ideas for my Mother and Aunt's gardens.

I was wondering, what's the difference between a "dwarf" and a "micro-dwarf"? Dwarf is pretty well defined by the Dwarf Project... are micro-dwarfs dwarfs under 18", or is there something else distinctive about them? Or can they be just determinates under 18", without the rugose leaves and thick stem, etc., of a dwarf?

I'm not an expert on the subject nor have grown micro dwarfs until this year before but yes they seem to stay at or under a certain length. 14" or less sounds about right? ?If interested stay tuned this fall/winter I will distribute seeds to those interested in my crosses.

Hopefully I can grow all my f1's out this fall so the micro dwarf hunt can commence next season!

Damon

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Let me see if I have ths straight!

Dwarfs have short internodes, rugose foliage, and are short overall, less than five feet.
Determinates set a bunch of fruit at a time, usually only once or twice.

A dwarf can be a determinate, but not all determinates are dwarfs.
Determinates are usually small plants.

"Micro-dwarf" means any tomato plant under 18" to 14". Which might be determinate or a dwarf or both or neither.

Examples:
Tiny Tim
Red Robin
Mohamed
Micro Tom
Micro Gemma
Chibikko
Lollipop


Tl

Here is how I look at the three main tomato classes:

Indeterminate - infinite upward/outward growth, reaching 8 feet or more by the killing frost, suckers become nearly as long as the central leader; potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Most tomato varieties are indeterminate - examples are Better Boy or Cherokee Purple

Determinate - look identical to indeterminate varieties as seedlings and during initial growth, but flowers set at branch ends once vertical growth stops (so-called self topping characteristic first seen with Cooper's Special in the early 1920s), tend to have a concentrated fruit set - potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high fruit to foliage ratio. Examples are Sophie's Choice, Taxi, Southern Night, Roma

Dwarf - Look distinct as seedlings, being more squat, thicker central stem, act as very slowly vertically growing indeterminate varieties, topping out at 3-5 feet, depending upon the exact nature (determinate or indeterminate - not easy to distinguish in some cases, and not all that important to know, really) - can be potato or regular leaf, but the foliage is a very dark green, nearly bluish green, and puckered/wrinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Been known since the mid 1800s, best known older ones are Dwarf Champion, Golden Dwarf Champion, New Big Dwarf; more recent one is Lime Green Salad, and the new creations from the Dwarf Project, such as Rosella Purple and Summertime Green.

Micro Dwarf varieties are very short growing Dwarfs, tend to be one foot or less in eventual height, and have the thick central stem and rugose foliage of Dwarfs.

What Craig said!



[QUOTE=nctomatoman;357838]Here is how I look at the three main tomato classes:

Indeterminate - infinite upward/outward growth, reaching 8 feet or more by the killing frost, suckers become nearly as long as the central leader; potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Most tomato varieties are indeterminate - examples are Better Boy or Cherokee Purple

Determinate - look identical to indeterminate varieties as seedlings and during initial growth, but flowers set at branch ends once vertical growth stops (so-called self topping characteristic first seen with Cooper's Special in the early 1920s), tend to have a concentrated fruit set - potato or regular leaf foliage, non-crinkled (rugose), high fruit to foliage ratio. Examples are Sophie's Choice, Taxi, Southern Night, Roma

Dwarf - Look distinct as seedlings, being more squat, thicker central stem, act as very slowly vertically growing indeterminate varieties, topping out at 3-5 feet, depending upon the exact nature (determinate or indeterminate - not easy to distinguish in some cases, and not all that important to know, really) - can be potato or regular leaf, but the foliage is a very dark green, nearly bluish green, and puckered/wrinkled (rugose), high foliage to fruit ratio. Been known since the mid 1800s, best known older ones are Dwarf Champion, Golden Dwarf Champion, New Big Dwarf; more recent one is Lime Green Salad, and the new creations from the Dwarf Project, such as Rosella Purple and Summertime Green.

Micro Dwarf varieties are very short growing Dwarfs, tend to be one foot or less in eventual height, and have the thick central stem and rugose foliage of Dwarfs.[/QUOTE]

Perfect! Thanks Craig!

Now I have noticed a distinct differences between my two Tiny Tims. One seem to fit the bill well, squat, nice thick central stem rugose foliage and about 8-9 inches tall. The other one however is less squat a bit more open growth habit and at a height of about 14-16 inches. The fruit trusses seem to be a bit more uniform as well. When I realized this I was worried so I made sure I went back to the Tiny Tim that seemed right and made duplicate crosses that I had made to the not so Tiny Tim one, if that makes sense. I sure hope I get ripe fruit in time to grow some f1's out in the fall!!!

Damon

Yes, thank you! That clears up my confusion completely. Well, on this subject, anyway.

Are there any indeterminate micro-dwarfs? Is such a thing possible? Probably wouldn't stay less than a foot tall over a long growing season?

I have got to learn how to cross-pollinate. Those little anthers are so small and my fingers are so clumsy! :lol:

[QUOTE=sprtsguy76;357848]
Now I have noticed a distinct differences between my two Tiny Tims. One seem to fit the bill well, squat, nice thick central stem rugose foliage and about 8-9 inches tall. The other one however is less squat a bit more open growth habit and at a height of about 14-16 inches. The fruit trusses seem to be a bit more uniform as well. When I realized this I was worried so I made sure I went back to the Tiny Tim that seemed right and made duplicate crosses that I had made to the not so Tiny Tim one, if that makes sense. I sure hope I get ripe fruit in time to grow some f1's out in the fall!!![/QUOTE]

From what I've read, there can be differences in size in the dwarfs based on growing conditions. Maybe one gets a little more sunlight than the other?

Clumsy fingers crossed for you!!!

Those from my crosses with an indeterminate parent (e.g. Chibikko x Green Zebra) give a mix of what I would call dwarf and micro. The traits are controlled by different genes.

The micros are the determinates and top out at 12-13" as mentioned. The indeterminates from the same cross are more like the dwarfs in that they keep growing but stay smaller in stature. They are not going to be good windowsill plants.



[QUOTE=tlintx;357895]
Are there any indeterminate micro-dwarfs? Is such a thing possible? Probably wouldn't stay less than a foot tall over a long growing season?

[/QUOTE]

Would it be possible, given tomato genetics, to select for the smallest possible indeterminates and have it carry through?

No I dont think so. I don't know of any micro indeterminates dwarfs. As stated before I think the closest thing to that would be the dwarfs that come out of these crosses. But that is not the objective of this particular project. The cross hemisphere dwarf project has many indeterminate dwarfes. Have you check out that forum?

Damon

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Yes, but they are winding down. Just a couple of months too late for me to join!

I'm trying to get a handle on the goals here before I start selecting! I think it's great that there might soon be more micro dwarfs to choose from.

Goals?? Heheheh, this is still pretty ad hoc! :twisted:

The seeds I sent you today are from the little plant posted above. All plants should be determinates and thus stay small. Look for interesting colors and stripes as well as good flavor!


[QUOTE=tlintx;357983]Yes, but they are winding down. Just a couple of months too late for me to join!

I'm trying to get a handle on the goals here before I start selecting! I think it's great that there might soon be more micro dwarfs to choose from.[/QUOTE]