Seedlings Require Help..
 

Hi...I would be sincerely grateful if my posted photos of a tray of plants (same tray taken from different angles) could be looked at and advice re what next....
Unfortunately they could not be raised as I planned and I am concerned about how spindly they are and how I can rectify this if possible..Up to this point they have been grown inside under lights and have received about 1/3rd of a cup of a light Miracle Gro mix each every 7 days...
So I am wondering if they require some other fertilizer.......should I put them out in my greenhouse under natural light and even retransplant them into new soil in big containers out there...
I do have a second tray that is now growing the same ..IE too spindly ...The plant trays have been raised up to the lights as close as possible to the top of the seedlings ....Maybe they are lacking in nitrogen?? My understanding of fertilizers and best ones to apply is not good but hopefully somebody can just give me info that will help...
Thankyou Ron

I think that the plants need more light. Yes, I would try to harden them off now and place them out in the natural light or get these up close to your light source. Natural light is always best. I would give them a dose of Epsom salts at your next time for feeding. The plants look to be very wet. The surface should be dry to the touch. I also think that I see some rot on your Unknown Off and perhaps another in that shot. I would suggest giving the plants less water. When you do re-pot these, plant them deep and bury the stem well. Do not re-pot until you can give them adequate light or they will just remain tall spindly seedlings.

In re-thinking your growing chambers, perhaps it would be easier to have this out in your greenhouse and instead of cooling the chamber, heat it. That way you can start your plants out there in the cold of early spring, have natural light and enough heat to prevent them from freezing.

Fix one or two things at a time.
Light and warmth first.
Right now I wouldn't water till the things drooped a wee bit.
When that gets fixed then worry about fertilizer, remember what I said in the other thread.
Worth

Hi thankyou Patti and Worth ....Re water...although these are sitting on a capillary cloth I am very doubtful of wether they could draw water up due to the Pot shape..Thats why I have checked these out and I doubt if they are overwatered and I have only given them the small 1/4 to 1/3 of cup of MG mix aproximately every 7 days ....
Because my freezer broke down I was unable to keep the air at a constant temperature ..I did try manually feeding ice into the reservoir sitting inside the broken down freezer box?? but the temperature was up and down like a yo- yo....from 17 to 28 degrees...because of the lights..
Re the light ..I would lower the lights but the temperature would raise til at 26-28 degrees I would either switch the lights off or raise the lid/lights up to lower the temperature build up.....So they have not had a good time due to inconsistancy...The second tray plants are smaller so they look better but they will surely go the same way ....

So the Greenhouse... Well its light here from just after 6am to 8.30pm (I think) ...We are having a bad patch of weather but my greenhouse is insulated?plus I have standup fans to use to blow air over them ...Some fans are in use 24/7 on my 3 plants purchased from the garden centre..
In fact I should shift my bed out there as its nice and warm...I went out earlier which I do every morning after getting up to check my 3 Tasty Toms ....and I certainly thought that maybe my young plants would be better off out here and this led me to taking photos and posting for opinions..I am still at a loss to how seedlings get thick stem growth although some varieties amaze me by the way their stems thicken up after earlier looking quite spindly...

I am rethinking the growing chamber all of the time....Its now too late IMO this season...Already I can see that the water through tubes is not an ideal way to get a constant temperature in a confined space...There are Peltier air cooling kits that could sit in the chamber bottom or just air transfer from a Fridge freezer into the chamber..All controlable and far less problems...than the system put in place...

Now what I could do about lights....I could raise the lights right out of the chamber altogether and put a support across the top of the chamber and put my trays up there and lower the lights down to top of the plants ...No heat build up etc then....The temp would depend on the ambient temp...But I cannot do that out in the greenhouse because I could not move everything out there at this point of time...but Patti's suggestion I am sure would work and I will consider it next season.... I actually think a standup fridge freezer would make more sense than a chest freezer (of course these do not go so one gets them cheap and one creates special lighting inside and the temp comes from an outside source....)

I will move the trays and post another photo and see what you think ....REgards Ron

This all sounds so complicated! I need simple, myself.

Last spring I planted seeds under a light in the house on a heat mat with a dome cover at night. They came up, grew well and strong and then I put them out in the garage where it is cooler with some natural light and fluorescent lights. That's when they got their 'cold treatment' without any extra effort.

I used to see African violets grown on capillary cloth because overhead watering ruins their leaves with spots. They were in the same style pots as yours and drank their fill without help. (peat based soilless mix)

When I worked in a greenhouse I learned to judge the dryness of a plant pot by feeling its weight. Light = dry. Heavy = wet. Easy with small pots.

Good Luck with your experiments.

[QUOTE=GrowingCoastal;671190]This all sounds so complicated! I need simple, myself.

Last spring I planted seeds under a light in the house on a heat mat with a dome cover at night. They came up, grew well and strong and then I put them out in the garage where it is cooler with some natural light and fluorescent lights. That's when they got their 'cold treatment' without any extra effort.

I used to see African violets grown on capillary cloth because overhead watering ruins their leaves with spots. They were in the same style pots as yours and drank their fill without help. (peat based soilless mix)

When I worked in a greenhouse I learned to judge the dryness of a plant pot by feeling its weight. Light = dry. Heavy = wet. Easy with small pots.

Good[URL="http://www.tomatoville.com/#86532323"] Luck[IMG]http://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png[/IMG][/URL] with your experiments.[/QUOTE]

Thanks For your reply ...There are limitations here where i can actually put the youngsters Although Next Season I should seriously consider doing all my seed raising out in my greenhouse and get my living room back in case of visitors?? ,,By the way I NEVER over head water my plants ..I ensure that any water is applied down the inside so water never gets on the foliage...These youngsters were propagated in a soilless mix but the mix they are in now is soil based..although the soilless mix is still around them ....Thanks Ron..

Hi ....As promised here are my two trays out of the chamber but with the lid above them.....I just put slabs of polystyrene under the trays to get them right under the lights....Note I have 3 fancy fans giving them movement at each end Regards ron..

Patti..I note your comment about "rot" ....I have had similar comments in the past ..There is no rot but seems to be the perlite I use ..It does seem to turn a light green which I think may indicate a fungus which its not.....I do not know what does that..The unknown plant is from the propagating tray I knocked over where everything was on the floor and I had to get it all up in a tray and "find" the seedlings..So I have to wait til it and the others I saved grow and then I can put labels on them...Over 1/2 never survived the transplant....Regards Ron

Light seems okay .. now. What were they last week?

NO WATER. NONE. Not until the pots feel light. Lose the capillary cloth.

Pop the root balls out and check the roots. Give us pics.

the light green on the perlite is not fungus it is algae. it grows everywhere. so don't treat for a fungus and expect to see results. keep everything as dry as possible. that helps to retard the growth of it.

[QUOTE=murihikukid;671193]Patti..I note your comment about "rot" ....I have had similar comments in the past ..There is no rot but seems to be the perlite I use ..It does seem to turn a light green which I think may indicate a fungus which its not.....I do not know what does that..The unknown plant is from the propagating tray I knocked over where everything was on the floor and I had to get it all up in a tray and "find" the seedlings..So I have to wait til it and the others I saved grow and then I can put labels on them...Over 1/2 never survived the transplant....Regards Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron, I am not speaking of your growing medium when I referenced that plant. Algae or moss growth is quite normal. In the photo that I indicated, to my eye, it looked as if the top of the seedling was curling and wilting or rotting off. So just to be sure all is well, take another look at Unknown Off to be sure that the seedling is okay. Pictures here can be deceiving, so it is best to double check.

Hi Patti..Yes the top of the seedling could be abnormal...There were three varieties in the propagators that fell over...NBFT or as I prefer to call it Myra's Delight ..Sweet scarlet and Tasty Tom .....So I think it could be a Tasty Tom ....As you can see from the other photos my experiment with growing Tasty Toms from seed does not look good but I may as well keep them growing and see what happens...I see one has three growing leaves..
Today I had to bike a long way and pick up another Fridge Freezer...I was had it when I got back home and lay down without eating first and must have sensed something was wrong while sleeping ...It may have been the sweat on me so I managed to struggle out of bed and do a blood test and sure enough I was starting to go into a Hypo so I had a close call...

So I have another fridge-freezer which I am testing now..and within a couple of days would have the cool Chamber up and going at any temperature ..but what do I do...???
It seems to me that my first two trays are probably past the time when the cold treatment is applied but I will wait til you confirm this...they certainly need something to strengthen their growth.....I do have a third tray of much smaller plants and they could certainly be given cold treatment ...

I am certainly wondering if my tall spindly plants should be all transplanted out into my greenhouse and check the roots then....By the weather forecast we do have about 10 days at least of relative good sunny weather ..I was also wondering if they require some specific fertiliser like Nitrogen for the foliage and The capillary cloth has no water to suck up....Regards Ron
PS>>I did drop into the Proper garden centre on my bike ride and could only look with envy upon there young plants...

Whoa. No wonder you were pooped. That must have been one tough ride.

That looks like no N deficiency I've ever seen. I'm no expert on fertilizers, but I doubt there's anything you can do with chemicals.

I'd let them continue to dry out and expose them to the cloudy sky. Even without direct sunlight it's still brighter than your lights.

"I'd let them continue to dry out and expose them to the cloudy sky. Even without direct sunlight it's still brighter than your lights."

I would do that too and let them get a little gentle wind or fan exposure to thicken the stems.

Hi.. Yes it was tough especially at my age ...Tasty toms are a Hybrid So I have just grown seeds to see what happens IE to learn? I am not going to throw them out but will continue with them and see what happens ...at the moment they certainly look terrible
Anyway I have another question ...How deep is deep? Do I remove the growing leaves and plant up to the first true leaves in soil when transplanting ...
Now I am not going to get into the water thing....I know how much water has been put on them and in my opinion the problem could rather be more lack of water than too much ...Also Miracle Gro..The miracle Gro we can buy here is probably not the same as in the US..I am using Miracle Gro Max Feed Soluble Plant Food ..Tomato, fruit and vegetable...Also I will post a photo of my latest seedlings that have been repotted...I think they also look as though they are going to be quite spindly ....These will be given the cold treatment when my friend actually tells me how he wants it set up...amazing that when I really need his advice he is not there for me ...happens all the time? I guess it must be me...
cheers Ron.

Hi..I would like to go back to my earlier photos....Basicly on Post #1....my plans were (at the appropriate time) to transplant straight out into my growing drums in the greenhouse....I am now wondering if I should consider transplanting now into "intermediate" pots and bury the stems up to the first true leaves ...Of course this is if its past the time that cold treatment would be beneficial..

I am hoping that today I will be informed about what is exactly happening regards the "Mature" plants that I planned on buying....Hopefully my email to what is no doubt the best independant gardening/grower centre in the city will get a response to wether they can supply me? At a realistic price?

By the way I have found what I think is a great thread on "how to grow seedlings with thick stems" but its on another web site and do not know if its appropriate to post the link??Regards Ron

PS..Have you ever heard of a tomato called Blue Fruit....It has a potato leaf...

Every pic looks over-watered to me. Cool temperatures make the problem worse. They would do well to get warm during the day, enough to dry out the media a little.

I do let my seedlings in the greenhouse get cold at night, but I'm not sure how much that helps them, if any. They also get very hot on a sunny day, 90+ degrees F. High temperatures seem to speed growth for me, and the roots like it when the media gets almost dry before the next watering.

If you keep everything else the same, try taking your current media and adding a lot of perlite to lighten it up. That will reduce the negative effects of being cold and wet, by making the media hold more air.

If you want thick stems in a seedling, growth dwarfs. They look like thick little trees as seedlings. The Dwarf Project on this web site has produced a lot of delicious varieties, some of the best I have ever tasted. They are well-suited to container growing as well.

I can't quite make out the Miracle-Gro proportions. Is that 27-6-27 ?? Strong stuff, and not what I'd use on peppers. (a multiple of 3:1:2). Tomatoes are reputed to need somewhat less N than peppers. I typically see "tomato" ratios of 1:1:1 or similar.

Me, I wouldn't use any ferts at all on seedlings. Not until they get up in the 4-6" range.

In you last pic, the pots are WET. A few are just starting to dry at the surface, which is good. Trust me - under-watering is [U]not[/U] your problem.

Cold and wet all the time spell crappy plants.
Not unless it is moss.
Worth

Hi...I cannot get through here... I put the DRY soil mix in the pots ..I packed it down in the bottom to ensure the soil had a chance to make contact and get access to water via a capillary cloth ( the pot was aprox 1/3 full) ......I then lightly Sprayed rain water from a spray bottle on the DRY soil mix...sprinkled Mycorrhizae on the soil then put the seedling on the soil still in its peat pot but with the bottom cut off and the side cut ....I hand fed some soil where the cut was and carefully unwrapped/removed the peat pot from around the seedling and hand fed soil down the sides .....up to the growing leaves ....i then lightly sprayed around the top ensuring no spray was put on the plant itself.....The pot was then put on the tray on the capillary cloth..
now I think it was unlikely that the plants would actually be able to get water from the cloth...unless it grew roots down to it ....Once transplanted the seeds took off and I fed them about every 7 days a 1/3rd of a cup of a light Miracle gro mix as per the Instructions ..They have had 2 X 7 day waters??.....Now these pots have been sitting under lights with fans blowing on them 24/7 and I am told they are two wet??? when I can actually see and test and say that they are not....They are in the 4 - 6 inch range now .....

I have an Electronic thermostat in the chamber so i knew at any given time the actual temperature of the air ...

Looking back ..my biggest problem was that they were not being raised in a constant temperature etc because of the breakdown of my chamber......

There are a number of Sweet Scarlets in the trays (a Dwarf?).....I have posted another photo of the MG... Thanks Ron

[QUOTE=Worth1;671429]Cold and wet all the time spell crappy plants.
Not unless it is moss.
Worth[/QUOTE]
Oh Dear..I cannot win?? Ron

[QUOTE=murihikukid;671444]Oh Dear..I cannot win?? Ron[/QUOTE]


I just speak the truth from experience.

If I grow under lights in the garage in the winter it isn't that much different that where you live.
The lights are on in the day time and go off at night.
Under the lights they are around 70F or so at night they are down to 50F 60F or so but not all the time.
16 hours a day for the light.
I bottom water and let it dry out between fillings.
They do not stay wet all the time.
In my opinion and the opinion of many other people that have seen them in person they are killer kick a$$ plants.
Around 100 watts of light per square foot.
You simply cannot let that soil suck up water all the time and stay wet in a cold environment.
Worth

ron, I am no expert by any means... I personally don't think they look wet but cold. tomatoes hate to be cold. I have seen my greenhouse full of toms just look like they are hunkering down when they are cold, but I probably have watered them out there too and they could be cold and wet. but I just think they look cold. nice thick stems come from: variety, sometimes they are sprayed with growth regulators by the large growers when shipping them to sell, air movement, fertilizer quality/quantity..light quality/quantity..... there are plenty of factors involved to get thick stems and stocky plants. I have let mine dry out to the point of wilting... daily... while trying to keep them from getting tall. sometimes it works sometimes they are tall and woody stemmed.

you can plant those tomatoes as deep as you want. pull off the cotyledons and leaves if you put them deeper than the leaf nodes. they will grow roots wherever they come in contact with the soil.

I care for my plants differently than you are trying, but that is just difference... neither right or wrong... it is only wrong if you kill off your plants.. that is a not even necessarily a fail... hopefully you learned something... it didn't work. whether it is me or you or someone else trying to get a crop. I don't overly worry about potting up into a larger pot myself. I tend to let them get pretty rootbound if it isn't in my schedule to do something that day or even that week. it doesn't seem to hurt them any.

I see why you were so tired after your trip. With your medical history, be sure to take a snack to have along the way. Check you sugar when you get home, BEFORE taking you will deserved nap.

I would transplant those plants into your large drums right away. Forego the cold treatment and get them out into the direct sunlight. I would plant them at least to the first true leaves. I do not remove any of the leaves because I have damaged stems doing that. I just plant them deeper and the leaves will decompose on their own without damage to the plant. There is no right or wrong way. I would add more mycos at planting time by applying them to the root mass. Your MG has plenty of nitrogen. If I were to add anything else it would be potassium or potash. I would feed your plants every 7 to 10 days with the MG for two feedings and then I would give them Calmag with Epsom salts on the third feeding. Go back to MG for two cycles and them Calmag/Epsom again.

So bypass the cold treatment with your first group and for this new batch go ahead and give it (the cold treatment) a try IF you think that you can also get the lights down on them.

speaking of "plenty of nitrogen" plenty of N will make the plants grow like weeds and then produce no fruit. if that is the only thing you can get for them dilute it by 1/2 and find some phosphorus to add from another source. Just my opinion, but I think it is way too much nitrogen.

[QUOTE=MissS;671453]I see why you were so tired after your trip. With your medical history, be sure to take a snack to have along the way. Check you sugar when you get home, BEFORE taking you will deserved nap.

I would transplant those plants into your large drums right away. Forego the cold treatment and get them out into the direct sunlight. I would plant them at least to the first true leaves. I do not remove any of the leaves because I have damaged stems doing that. I just plant them deeper and the leaves will decompose on their own without damage to the plant. There is no right or wrong way. I would add more mycos at planting time by applying them to the root mass. Your MG has plenty of nitrogen. If I were to add anything else it would be potassium or potash. I would feed your plants every 7 to 10 days with the MG for two feedings and then I would give them Calmag with Epsom salts on the third feeding. Go back to MG for two cycles and them Calmag/Epsom again.

So bypass the cold treatment with your first group and for this new batch go ahead and give it (the cold treatment) a try IF you think that you can also get the lights down on them.[/QUOTE]

Thankyou Patti..........I have just biked from one end of town to the other looking for parts,cost etc If I decide to change the Growth Chamber...Which I may not do ?? as I have been advised by another person not to???

Yes your post says it all ...I was thinking exactly the same except you have added some extras for me..like adding the Mycos and a time table to work too...in fact I think I should take the two trays out to the greenhouse now...and give them a few hours under the sun out there and organise everything to transplant them tomorrow..Thankyou Ron

[QUOTE=Worth1;671447]I just speak the truth from experience.


You simply cannot let that soil suck up water all the time and stay wet in a cold environment.
Worth[/QUOTE]

Worth..... there is no water to suck up... The trays have no water and the capillaries are dead dry ...With the lights on I estimate they are in 25 degrees of air temperature and about 18 at night ...They have never been in a cold wet environment....
I am taking Patti's advice and tomorrow 28 will be transplanted less some I will be giving away..I need to check my drums and make sure everything is ready for a hards days work...with reasonably nice days everything should go alright but it does get hot in my greenhouse although I will be adding more fans out there...and the arm chairs will have to be moved...Cheers Ron..

Hi...Some of my seedlings were put in small pots with the moss mix as far back as the 29th Sept..They germinated on paper but failed to appear ..i presume its now time to declare them AWOL ...Thanks Ron

That pic is a little better. 22/27(?):6:12? That's more like it. But still a lot of N for tomatoes.

[QUOTE].The pot was then put on the tray on the capillary cloth.. now I think it was unlikely that the plants would actually be able to get water from the cloth...unless it grew roots down to it[/QUOTE]Excuse me?!? Then what the bloody hell is the point of the cloth?? It wicks water [U]into the soil[/U]. That mechanism depends not at all on roots.

When I transplant I like to do it with wet mix because it's easier to handle and less likely to send dust up my nose. Then I saturate the pot, partially to make sure that the plant's small root structure has plenty of water to suck on and partly to settle the soil. Then I leave it alone for a while and don't water again until the pot feels light or the leaves show a little distress. THEN I know where I am in the watering cycle.

NO uncontrolled bottom watering. You MUST have feedback to get the watering right and you've set yourself up for a wing and a prayer, but no feedback. Fail is not to be unexpected.


Edit: I see that the cloth is dry .. now. I seriously doubt that it has been that way for long. Eh?