Crossing Sungold and Sunsugar
 

More a thought experiment than anything and maybe this is a stupid idea. But everything I've read about trying to dehybridize Sungold has not been able to mimick the F1. I'm guessing the same is true for Sunsugar given how similar the tomatoes are. Would there be any point in crossing the two and growing out the results?

I have both in F2 seeds...
Probably not a bad idea to try!
Sun golds cracked more than the sun sugars last year, but sun sugars were smaller...
Taste is debatable, I liked the taste of sun sugar better though...

I think trying crosses with tomatoes that you like are well worth the effort.

A cross with one of these liked tomatoes with a tomato that does well in your part of Oregon might produce more of what you want as a result? I'll give you an example:

A tomato called Porter was developed back in the 1920s by a man who developed this tomato just for people growing in my gardening conditions. He did this 50 or so miles from where I live. The Porter tomato does more than well in our garden, and it tastes wonderful. It gave me inspiration to look for gardening sites - which I found Tomatoville.

One day, I will grow some crosses. Porter will be a parent.

I am very interested in what you will grow in Oregon.

I think it is always a good idea to cross two cultivars you like. But i'm not sure it will improve chances of getting a closer OP wrt to one of the parents. Dont forgot your crossing F1s so there will be already segregations in the seeds of the first generation you'll sow. So sow like it was "classic" F2s

[QUOTE=jmsieglaff;518038]More a thought experiment than anything and maybe this is a stupid idea. But everything I've read about trying to dehybridize Sungold has not been able to mimick the F1. I'm guessing the same is true for Sunsugar given how similar the tomatoes are. Would there be any point in crossing the two and growing out the results?[/QUOTE]

I cannot speak to dehybridizing Sunsugar, however I have dehybridized Sunchocola with widely variable results ... some good, some maroon, some red, some cherry, some larger than cherry, some good, some awful.

On the other hand, I have crossed a particular supermarket, Canadian greenhouse/Mexican field grown type, maroon saladette (using F2 seeds) x Sunchocola F1, and gotten consistently good results after growing 4 plants per generation thru the F3, with all results being above average in all categories, although the sizes and number per cluster vary from small cherry to ping pong size ... all having been maroon, which surprised me with regard to the Sunchocola parent, which itself was quite het. for red thru the F4.

I also dehybridized a "gold" cherry F1 from China. Actually, I shouldn't say that I dehybridized it since I only took it to F3 before sending seeds to Timothy in Carolina, after which he has totally dehybridized it over a period of several years now. We call it Chain-O-Ball, and you might ask him about the process and results.

The seeds came from China, but the original product appeared to be very similar to Sungold, although the color was a bit more deep yellow than orange when fully ripe, and the berries were slightly larger and more truly round than Sungold. I suspect the target for the breeders was something akin to Sungold.

Timothy seems very satisfied with his results, which are assumed to be completely stable at this point. The name derives from an old, oriental, ornamental tree that went feral in Mississippi, where I grew up as a kid. We white kids called the tree "China Berry" because of the long trusses of marble sized seed balls. Our African-American contemporaries called the tree "Chain-O-Ball" which to me was much more descriptive. The berries were hard, and made great slingshot ammo.

[QUOTE=travis;518732]I cannot speak to dehybridizing Sunsugar, however I have dehybridized Sunchocola with widely variable results ... some good, some maroon, some red, some cherry, some larger than cherry, some good, some awful.

On the other hand, I have crossed a particular supermarket, Canadian greenhouse/Mexican field grown type, maroon saladette (using F2 seeds) x Sunchocola F1, and gotten consistently good results after growing 4 plants per generation thru the F3, with all results being above average in all categories, although the sizes and number per cluster vary from small cherry to ping pong size ... all having been maroon, which surprised me with regard to the Sunchocola parent, which itself was quite het. for red thru the F4.[/QUOTE]

This is the kind of thing I was thinking in my head, could crossing two similar tomatoes somehow make a dehybridizing effort more successful? Why that would be the case I don't really know, but your anecdotes here seem to suggest that is plausible.

Crossing two similar cultivars wont help, because it cant be closer than a self pollination where the two parents are identical ;)

There is no magic, you have to grow enough plants (ot be lucky enough) to find the right combination of traits, and hoping some distinctive features is not the result of heterozygous genes (because your OP will be homozyous at all locii).

Why try and reinvent the wheel? Sungold is sungold. Sunsugar is sunsugar. I say try to Breed something new :), something different. There have been so many attempts to replicate and/or de-hybridize sungold. Why? Why not just grow sungold if that is a tomato you enjoy? The popularity of sungold has resulted in a population explosion of lots and lots of " OK"gold cherries... none to my knowledge as good as the origionals.

KarenO

I think also that it is much more frustrating trying to get OP sungold than crossing sungold and another variety you love. Much more fun !

[QUOTE=KarenO;518931]Why try and reinvent the wheel? Sungold is sungold. Sunsugar is sunsugar. I say try to Breed something new :), something different. There have been so many attempts to replicate and/or de-hybridize sungold. Why? Why not just grow sungold if that is a tomato you enjoy? The popularity of sungold has resulted in a population explosion of lots and lots of " OK"gold cherries... none to my knowledge as good as the origionals.

KarenO[/QUOTE]

Karen, you're right. I'm not going to do this, like I said it was more a thought experiment than anything. I do grow Sungold every year. Should I decide to do some crossing I will do something that seems more fun and interesting. I'm growing out some F2 for the dwarf project this year, so that will be exciting.

Down the road I could see myself crossing something like Black Krim with a yellow multi-flora. Or who knows maybe I'll be inspired to include something I'll be growing in 2016. Ultimately I can see myself crossing Black Krim with something at some point--it is one of my favorite tomatoes. The only reason I haven't jumped into the crossing fun yet is I know the amount of plants I would devote to an F2 would be insufficient, but always could do an F2 grow-out over a couple of years. I'm enjoying your and Marsha's KARMA project thread and read every time it is updated.

That is the spirit! Cross with tomatoes you really love. good parents will make good offspring. Give it a go, it's fun and you will be surprised how easy it actually is. If you are doing it for your own pleasure and as a hobby and not to become a famous tomato breeder it doesn't matter whether anyone likes it but you ;)Many of the best OP tomatoes I've grown are the result of amateur breeders or total accidents of nature. PS Custom crossing your own F1's (for your own personal use) are way easier than stabilizing 8 generations of an OP. But don't tell anybody I told you that ;)
KarenO

I agree with KarenO