Saving seeds: Likelihood of crossing without bagging?

[mari.beth]

I have 20 OP tomato plants in two raised beds, so my plants are not spaced far apart. Last year, I saved seeds from an Italian Heirloom plant I purchased at a local nursery. The plant I grew from those seeds seems to be an Italian Heirloom plant (same tomatoes as last year in terms of size, taste, etc.) This year, I have been reading up on saving seeds and I have been trying to bag blossoms in tulle as recommended. However, only for one plant so far (Black Cherry) has fruit formed in the bags. I grow tomatoes for myself and to share and do not sell the seeds (I did share some of the IH seeds with relatives this year), so it is not crucial that my plants don't cross; however, I would prefer to them not to. Any information about how likely cross-pollination is without a physical barrier or ideas about other ways to get blossoms to self-pollinate inside the tulle would be appreciated! (I did try shaking the bagged blossoms to try to get them to pollinate!)

[Worth1]

They can cross of course but not likely.

Worth

[carolyn137]

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/t...852004159.html

Mari-beth. above is a link I've postged here many times about cross pollination and I think it's one of he best on the net. You may even recognize the names of some folks at the end of the article who contributed to it.

You'll find answers to your quetions there, I'm sure, and yes, the degree that a person goes to ensure pure seeds is determined by what their uses will be.

I tried bagging once and it was a complete failure but at the time I was using Remay, not tulle, and what happens when it's hot and humid is the the blossoms rot.

I've saved seeds from several thousands of varieties, ones that I SSE listed and also sent to various seed companies for trial, and seldom have I had a MAJOR problem with X pollination.

But that also depends on where you garden, what pollinators are there and when, and I think that's covered in that article.

If not, just ask.

Carolyn

[Lee]

Originally Posted by mari.beth

Any information about how likely cross-pollination is without a physical barrier or ideas about other ways to get blossoms to self-pollinate inside the tulle would be appreciated! (I did try shaking the bagged blossoms to try to get them to pollinate!)

Do you have bees in your tomato garden?
If not, then there is ~0% chance of cross pollination.
Bees are the source of cross pollination with tomatoes, and
you can observe when they are in your garden or not.
I typically don't see bees at the beginning of the season, so
I try to save seed from only early fruit.

Your area may be completely different from mine (or anyone else's here), so observe what's in your area and adjust accordingly.

Now I have bagged after doing my own crosses, as bees were around at the time of the year I did those.

Lee

[KarenO]

Hi there, I do the same as Lee, save seed from the earlier fruit as there is much more bee activity now on the blooms high up on the plants. now that they are in the 6' + range.
KarenO

[MrBig46]

The bagging is primarily a job for which you never know what the result it will bring. I have to a bag because I want to keep the newly bought varieties for next season and bumblebees are very active in my garden since early spring (especially wintered mothers). They fly from one flower to another, and they infallibly know which pollen has the right consistency. This year I bagged about 80 for me new varieties. The biggest problem is the heat, humidity, and in particular that the plant is a hybrid plant. Then the whole work was wasted.
Vladimír

[mari.beth]

Thanks, everyone! It is funny that you mentioned bees because I did not notice many until recently! I think I will save the black cherry seeds from the plant that produced fruit in the tulle bag and worry about saving others early in the season next year just to be sure!

Carolyn, I had located the article via a Google search and read it before but did not notice the author or contributor's names! It is very comprehensive and I think where I got the idea of using bags to start with! Thanks!

[JamesL]

Mari.beth,
You need a cheap electric toothbrush to work over your bagged tomatoes. It will greatly improve germination.

[joseph]

Vibrating adult toys are much less expensive than electric toothbrushes...

[JamesL]

Joseph,
Thats rather funny!
I buy a version of these toothbrushes for my kids, the bristles wear out long before the batteries.
They then get repurposed as pollinators.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003CP12QG?vs=1

[carolyn137]

James and Joseph, absolutely nothing will work to increase pollination if conditions are not right for pollination, whether it's high sustained heat, clumped pollen or whatever.

And the only way anyone can tell if using alternative methods, and that includes whacking the plants with a broom, worked, is to have two identical plants and treat one and not the other.

No different, really, from folks saying they added Ca++ to tomato plants and said the BER went away, when indeed for almost everyone it does go away anyway as the plants mature and can better handle the many stresses that can induce BER.

Carolyn, who saves seeds from late fruits since pollinators are most active where she is in the Spring. Lots of talks here about bumble bees and honey bees but the bees that do most of the pollination are wild bees, Halictid bees, aka sweat bees, and they are so tiny that most folks can't even see them.

[joseph]

Halictid bees range in size from about 4 mm to 8 mm. That is well within the physical capability of normal human vision. That is much larger than typical font sizes used in books and computer systems. Small print on packaging is often around 2 mm across. Many folks can't see any bees on a tomato plant regardless of the size of the bee, because they are not looking or paying attention. It's typically a mental issue that prevents them from noticing the bees, not a physical condition. Anyone with average vision that was paying attention would see even the smallest halictid bees if they were visiting tomato flowers.

In my garden, the halictid bees love the onion family, and the parsley family, and the sunflower family. They don't much care for tomato flowers. A number of different bumblebee species routinely visit a few specific cultivars of tomatoes in my garden. I can expect to find them any time that it is not too windy, or too wet, or too dark. Honeybees often scout the tomatoes in my garden, but they are flyby visits. They don't find enough resources to go back home and recruit helpers.

[Worth1]

Joseph I am one of those people that notices everything in my surroundings.
From the smallest insects to the deer looking at me from the woods.
I haven't seen a sweat bee in years.
We have honeybees bumblebees and carpenterbees..

None of them gives a hoot about my tomato plants.
Too many other tasty treats for them to snack on.

Worth

[JamesL]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

James and Joseph, absolutely nothing will work to increase pollination if conditions are not right for pollination, whether it's high sustained heat, clumped pollen or whatever.

And the only way anyone can tell if using alternative methods, and that includes whacking the plants with a broom, worked, is to have two identical plants and treat one and not the other.

No different, really, from folks saying they added Ca++ to tomato plants and said the BER went away, when indeed for almost everyone it does go away anyway as the plants mature and can better handle the many stresses that can induce BER.

Carolyn, who saves seeds from late fruits since pollinators are most active where she is in the Spring. Lots of talks here about bumble bees and honey bees but the bees that do most of the pollination are wild bees, Halictid bees, aka sweat bees, and they are so tiny that most folks can't even see them.

Carolyn,
I cannot disagree with you about pollination conditions. Personally I have better luck bagging and buzzing in the early season before it gets too hot and humid here.

[carolyn137]

For those who are interested in cross pollination, which ones do it and why and how, I have two links to offer you.

http://www.southernexposure.com/isol...es-ezp-35.html

One of THE best articles I've read about NCP ( natural cross pollination) and be sure to read it all, especially the variables.

http://www.carolinafarmstewards.org/...esVer_1pt5.pdf

Above is a more detailed discussion written by Dr. McCormack and there's a wealth of info in those pages.

Be sure to read the section specifically devoted to tomatoes and also the different possible pollinators and what their preferences are, etc.

Carolyn