Seeds of Diversity Canada

clarenceboy · January 25, 2008

Can a canadian fellow or an informed american inform me about the situation at Seeds of Diversity Canada. I love SSE,it suits me real fine, and since vegetables aren't great patriots, I never bothered to be one either...but I was considering joining anyway to support...it seems there are some problems, but for an un-informed person, it is hard to follow you folks!

I don't want to lose my time and give money to an organisation laiden with conflicts of interests, but is it only a tomato situation, is it only that they added Doucet's name to the varieties he created or is there more...

Michel

Suze · January 25, 2008

Michel, I moved your question to a new thread so it doesn't get missed by anyone.

cdntomato · January 26, 2008

Suze, do I have license to explain in detail??????
(Well, you knew, didn't you?)

Renaming AgCan-bred material (Quebec 1121 renamed to Doucet's Prolific Plum Producer or Doucet's Q-1121 or Q-1121) or well-known varieties like Silvery Fir Tree to Silvery Fir ('coz you think that the name's too long) is only one very, very small tip to the iceberg.

Preservation of a variety is more than simply the mechanics of saving the seeds (and SODC's instructions don't even get that right half the time).

Personal conflicts of interest as ably demonstrated by SODC's leaders are a separate issue. And the fact that these leaders flaut the Canada Seed Act in their personal for-profit seed companies, which may result in changes to seed regulations that are NOT wanted in Canada provides another layer. Add to this donations to SODC for preservation...but, unlike SSE, SODC does not have or maintain an autonomous seed vault...so these donations go into personal and company collections, usually out of circulation.

Devoted Canuck Jennifer, testing the international waters to see if 1 metre will do or the whole 9 yards, err, metres are wanted, even possible.

Zana · January 26, 2008

Jennifer,
As you say, just the tip of the frozen north iceberg, if you will. Don't get me started on SODC and their questionable practices regarding donations and conservation. I had some, shall we say, interesting dealings with them, regarding the "W.C.M.P. Beans" and getting them identified.

Zana ~ who was so new at the time that she almost gave up the idea of growing heirlooms due to red tape and manure being shovelled her way by certain bodies that ought to have known better....and thankfully found places like TV to bring order to the madness....and re-instill the joy of being bit by the heirloom tomato/veggie bug.

cdntomato · January 26, 2008

Zana, I'm glad that you've posted. For so long here and before at that other online forum, I've been the only one willing to speak out. And being a researcher/collector of Canadian germplasm, I wish truly that your and my experiences with SODC had been better. The early roots of SODC, when I was still at the Toronto Historical Board, were soooo promising. SSE North. Pretty much free fall post Heather Apple.

Now my biggest concern is the relationship that SODC has had with PGRC and SSE/SSE members and through Cary Fowler to the Norwegian vault. Too much wrong stuff, too much wrong info being provided to unwitting folks who will devotedly preserve what they've been given, as is, by folks supposedly in authority who could not research or document their way out of a paper bag. This is not preservation. This is world-class foul-up. And the Cdn gov/industry (same diff more often than not) is watching.

Don't get me or the Cdn garlic guru started on the SODC Cdn garlic project.

Jennifer, the shrinking violet
ex of K-W, BTW

velikipop · January 26, 2008

Jennifer,

Is it possible to initiate an alternative seed bank for Canadians. I can test the waters with the people in horticulture at the college where I teach. We really do need a public not for profit seed bank in this country.

Alex

Zana · January 26, 2008

Alex,
I just asked that same question of Jennifer in a pm. She has an interesting and thought provoking answer. And I for one am all for helping as much as I can to make it a viable reality.
Zana

clarenceboy · January 26, 2008

CDN, do we really need a canadian bank? SSE does a great job, some sub-section wouldn'T be sufficient?

I mean, the big issue for me is preservation, not politics. As long as some canadians are working on it and we do find them, identifie them properly and preserve them well, what is the importance of the nationality of the bank?

What are the other underlying issues if there is any?

Michel

velikipop · January 26, 2008

Michel,

It would seem a good idea to me to have a seed bank in Canada that is not for profit. I see your point about replicating SSE, but I can't see any harm being done. Many countries have their own seed banks. I think it would make seeds more readily available to Canadians, help in the preservation of seeds indigineous to Canada, but perhaps most importantly raise public awarness about the need to preserve botanical diversity.

Heck we might be able to get a grant!!!

Alex

cdntomato · January 26, 2008

Michel, I have never said that I was setting out to duplicate SSE in Canada. Nor do I want to duplicate SODC for that matter. And that's not what Zana said either. Setting up a non-profit research and repository facility is another thing altogether; 'genebanking' is not SSE's primary function and not a function of SODC at all. And in ag, divorcing preservation from politics is....biting my tongue.

Some germplasm, like garlic and potatoes and sweet potatoes and...simply won't cross borders legally. Full stop. SSE/any foreign holdings then are valueless to Canadians.

I'm dedicated to locating and, where necessary and possible, repatriating and preserving Canadian-bred (understood: government-bred using public funds) germplasm so that it can remain available in the public domain. That goal simply isn't possible out of country, no matter how good the foreign organization is. For heaven's sake, what I've said above is that SSE has been given and is saving WRONG material and information by some Canadians who are NOT identifying them properly and preserving them well.. Factor in the domino effect when sharing...and you have a preservation and political mess.

Jennifer

clarenceboy · January 26, 2008

Got it! Thanks for the info, and youre right, some stuff can't croos border easily if at all, and the domino effect is frightening. I guess I know what to do now, thanks to your comments.

Michel

Tania · January 27, 2008

Jennifer,

You definitely have an opportunity to verify all info wrt Canadian varieties at T-base (http://t-garden.homeip.net/mwiki/index.php/).

. You mentioned earlier that you will be happy to help to ensure correctness of the histories etc, where you can - that would be a great step towards ensuring that correct information is readily available for all tomato growers on the net.

I am 100% with you re the point that we (=Canadian growers) do not want to propagate wrong varieties or wrong information!!!

.

Growing lots of varieties myself, and taking lot of take ensuring that the plants are labelled correctly, and the fruits are labelled correctly, and the seeds from the correct plant end up in a correctly labeled package, I also want to make sure that I am not unknownly propagate a wrong information!

cdntomato · January 27, 2008

Tania, sending you big hugs!!!!! I was hoping to use your website/database as the main e-communication tool, but was hestitant to pursue that until the NFP was firmly established. In fact, if Zana hadn't said anything, then neither would I.

Tania, I'm doing a bunch of grow-outs/trials this year. Do you want reports (with pics) for the site? Could provide details soon. Will give you 'exclusives'. :>)

Michel, thank you for your comments. I realize that not everyone feels the same way I do and respect your opinions. I've trained and worked in preservation/conservation-related fields for close to (gasp) 30 years now, at the municipal, provincial and, primarily, at the federal level. I've bruises on forehead and crushed toes from all the times that politics has seriously jeopardized preservation initiatives. That's why I've been working in tandem with a national farming organization over seed issues. It's way past being an academic exercise for me. It's your choice to support or not as you feel comfortable.

Alex and Zana, thanks too. We're in this together;let's work as a team.

Cheers,
Jennifer

clarenceboy · January 27, 2008

I won't support an organisation devoted to the structuring of a bunch of lies, that is for sure!!!

salix · February 2, 2008

Yikes! How can I help? Don't have a lot of room for growing, but am meticulous about labelling, etc.

January 26, 2008	#3
cdntomato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 554	Suze, do I have license to explain in detail?????? (Well, you knew, didn't you?) Renaming AgCan-bred material (Quebec 1121 renamed to Doucet's Prolific Plum Producer or Doucet's Q-1121 or Q-1121) or well-known varieties like Silvery Fir Tree to Silvery Fir ('coz you think that the name's too long) is only one very, very small tip to the iceberg. Preservation of a variety is more than simply the mechanics of saving the seeds (and SODC's instructions don't even get that right half the time). Personal conflicts of interest as ably demonstrated by SODC's leaders are a separate issue. And the fact that these leaders flaut the Canada Seed Act in their personal for-profit seed companies, which may result in changes to seed regulations that are NOT wanted in Canada provides another layer. Add to this donations to SODC for preservation...but, unlike SSE, SODC does not have or maintain an autonomous seed vault...so these donations go into personal and company collections, usually out of circulation. Devoted Canuck Jennifer, testing the international waters to see if 1 metre will do or the whole 9 yards, err, metres are wanted, even possible. __________________ There is no sincerer love than the love of food. -George Bernard Shaw

January 26, 2008	#5
cdntomato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Kingston, Ontario Posts: 554	Zana, I'm glad that you've posted. For so long here and before at that other online forum, I've been the only one willing to speak out. And being a researcher/collector of Canadian germplasm, I wish truly that your and my experiences with SODC had been better. The early roots of SODC, when I was still at the Toronto Historical Board, were soooo promising. SSE North. Pretty much free fall post Heather Apple. Now my biggest concern is the relationship that SODC has had with PGRC and SSE/SSE members and through Cary Fowler to the Norwegian vault. Too much wrong stuff, too much wrong info being provided to unwitting folks who will devotedly preserve what they've been given, as is, by folks supposedly in authority who could not research or document their way out of a paper bag. This is not preservation. This is world-class foul-up. And the Cdn gov/industry (same diff more often than not) is watching. Don't get me or the Cdn garlic guru started on the SODC Cdn garlic project. Jennifer, the shrinking violet ex of K-W, BTW __________________ There is no sincerer love than the love of food. -George Bernard Shaw

January 26, 2008	#6
velikipop Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Langley, BC Posts: 768	Jennifer, Is it possible to initiate an alternative seed bank for Canadians. I can test the waters with the people in horticulture at the college where I teach. We really do need a public not for profit seed bank in this country. Alex __________________ I'll plant and I'll harvest what the earth brings forth The hammer's on the table, the pitchfork's on the shelf Bob Dylan

January 26, 2008	#8
clarenceboy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ONTARIO Posts: 13	Canadian seed back CDN, do we really need a canadian bank? SSE does a great job, some sub-section wouldn'T be sufficient? I mean, the big issue for me is preservation, not politics. As long as some canadians are working on it and we do find them, identifie them properly and preserve them well, what is the importance of the nationality of the bank? What are the other underlying issues if there is any? Michel

January 26, 2008	#9
velikipop Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Langley, BC Posts: 768	Michel, It would seem a good idea to me to have a seed bank in Canada that is not for profit. I see your point about replicating SSE, but I can't see any harm being done. Many countries have their own seed banks. I think it would make seeds more readily available to Canadians, help in the preservation of seeds indigineous to Canada, but perhaps most importantly raise public awarness about the need to preserve botanical diversity. Heck we might be able to get a grant!!! Alex __________________ I'll plant and I'll harvest what the earth brings forth The hammer's on the table, the pitchfork's on the shelf Bob Dylan

January 25, 2008	#1
clarenceboy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ONTARIO Posts: 13	Can a canadian fellow or an informed american inform me about the situation at Seeds of Diversity Canada. I love SSE,it suits me real fine, and since vegetables aren't great patriots, I never bothered to be one either...but I was considering joining anyway to support...it seems there are some problems, but for an un-informed person, it is hard to follow you folks! I don't want to lose my time and give money to an organisation laiden with conflicts of interests, but is it only a tomato situation, is it only that they added Doucet's name to the varieties he created or is there more... Michel

January 25, 2008	#2
Suze Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 3,027	Michel, I moved your question to a new thread so it doesn't get missed by anyone.

January 26, 2008	#4
Zana Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southwestern Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,521	Jennifer, As you say, just the tip of the frozen north iceberg, if you will. Don't get me started on SODC and their questionable practices regarding donations and conservation. I had some, shall we say, interesting dealings with them, regarding the "W.C.M.P. Beans" and getting them identified. Zana ~ who was so new at the time that she almost gave up the idea of growing heirlooms due to red tape and manure being shovelled her way by certain bodies that ought to have known better....and thankfully found places like TV to bring order to the madness....and re-instill the joy of being bit by the heirloom tomato/veggie bug.

January 27, 2008	#12
Tania Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anmore, BC, Canada Posts: 3,970	Jennifer, You definitely have an opportunity to verify all info wrt Canadian varieties at T-base (http://t-garden.homeip.net/mwiki/index.php/). . You mentioned earlier that you will be happy to help to ensure correctness of the histories etc, where you can - that would be a great step towards ensuring that correct information is readily available for all tomato growers on the net. I am 100% with you re the point that we (=Canadian growers) do not want to propagate wrong varieties or wrong information!!! . Growing lots of varieties myself, and taking lot of take ensuring that the plants are labelled correctly, and the fruits are labelled correctly, and the seeds from the correct plant end up in a correctly labeled package, I also want to make sure that I am not unknownly propagate a wrong information! __________________ Tatiana's TOMATObase

February 2, 2008	#15
salix Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: north central B.C. Posts: 2,310	Yikes! How can I help? Don't have a lot of room for growing, but am meticulous about labelling, etc.