Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.
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September 10, 2007 | #1 |
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
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F-1 Black Plum X Green Zebra
DSCN1243.jpg
This is but one photo I have taken of my many F-1 hybrids that I am trying out this year. The smokey coloring of Black Plum is not quite evident in the picture, but in reality they are smokey and not the red color it seems here. The green flesh is recessive as you can tell. The shape is somewhat between the two parents. Very little show of striping. Great production! Interesting flavors. My crop is running late this year. I am saving the F-2 seed to get recombinants for the next go around. |
September 11, 2007 | #2 |
Tomatovillian™
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I love black plum If you need a tester let me know
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September 14, 2007 | #3 |
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
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This hybrid has passed the test for me as a potential heirloom hybrid to promote. I have a number of projects in the future that hopefully will take a hybrid like this to the market.
The recombination of traits in the F-2 and later generations will allow me to select a dozen or so prototypes for the future. |
September 14, 2007 | #4 | |
Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project™ Moderator
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Quote:
Patrina
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September 14, 2007 | #5 | |
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Hybrid Heirloom Tomato
Quite oxymoronic, isn't it? People want hybrid tomatoes because they; 1. Think they yield better 2. Think they have more disease resistance 3. Think since the seed is more expensive..better value 4. Are used to growing hybrids 5. Think heirloom don't keep as well 6 Think tomatoes should be red, period! 7. (your comments here) People want heirloom tomatoes because they: 1. Think they taste better 2. Think they are sustainable sources of diversity 3. Think they are artfully snobbish ( I mean thoughtful) 4. Think they are less likely to be GMO monsters 5. Can save the seed 6 Are more colorful 7. (your comments here) Why would anyone want Hybrid Heirloom tomatoes? 1. They yield better 2. They have more disease resistance 3. The seed is more expensive..better value 4. Used to growing hybrids 5. Heirloom don't keep as well, usually 6 Tomatoes should be red,yellow, pink, green, black, orange bicolored, you name it! 7. They taste better 8. They are sustainable sources of diversity 9. They are artfully thoughtful 10 They are no more likely to be GMO monsters 11 Can save the seed, and have real diversity 12 Are more colorful than regular old fashioned F-1's 13 (your comments here) Quote:
I asked, "Would you grow a Hybrid Brandywine that had firmer fruit, less catfacing, earlier maturity, more fruit, more consistent flavor, more disease resistant, chilling resitance, more good stuff?" I saw nods of yesirees. Did I mention that I could produce the seed? At least to start with. I could even disclose each parental line so that hybrids would no longer have to be state secrets. That each grower could produce his own hybrid seed just by accessing the parental strains. Or,,,I could be the evil breeder who maintains complete confidentially of each parent and releases to no one. You don't need a lot of hybrid seed. They is no money to be made with OP seed, to tell you the true fact. If one could get 10 cents per seed, you could return the investment in the tomato work. I sure hope this has stoked some fires in the CrossTalk forum. It has been too quiet of late. Tom Wagner |
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September 16, 2007 | #6 |
Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project™ Moderator
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So, the idea of an heirloom hybrid is the crossing of 2 heirlooms basically? I guess that's what most accidental crosses are among heirloom enthusiasts anyhow, the only difference being that one parent is unkown in accidental crosses
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September 17, 2007 | #7 |
Tomatovillian™
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"Hybrid Heirloom tomato"
YMMV
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September 19, 2007 | #8 |
Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator
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I am a bit surprised that my arguments, as stated rather copiously in the previous messages, have garnished so few comments. I don't know if there is any agreement or even mild to hostile opposition to my positions, point by point, or in general terms a non-issue.
Hybrid Heirloom Tomatoes Is this viable? Tom Wagner |
September 19, 2007 | #9 |
Tomatovillian™
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I have a problem with that terminology, for what it's worth. Hybrid is not OP/ Heirloom is OP. It's a contradiction of terms.
However, I do see a need for some kind of wording to express 'special' hybrids. Take Purple Haze for example: From what I hear, it has such amazing flavor that it deserves distinction other than simply 'hybrid.' It was certainly developed from great-tasting heirlooms, but the fact remains, it isn't OP. OP is really the only common denominator of heirlooms - and then there's that discussion (what is an heirloom?..) which complicates the matter further. I was thinking of starting a mail-order seed company, "Heirlooms of Tomorrow," which would sell only new stabilized (OP) tomato varieties (which, in my opinion, aren't really heirlooms yet.) Perhaps 'Heirlooms of Tomorrow' would be more appropriate to describe 'hybrid heirlooms?' [Unfortunately, someone already has that business name, but it isn't applied to vegetables...] Not trying to offer hostile opposition, just conversation... |
September 19, 2007 | #10 |
Tomatovillian™
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"Hybrid Heirloom Tomatoes"
Some people are going to see that and not get it. They'll think, "Oh cool, someone was talking about these at work (heirloom tomatoes)," and maybe order some, without the faintest idea of how what are they getting differs from either standard retail seed market commercial hybrids or OP heirlooms. The cultivar description and price will be the only parts that sink in. Other people will suspect a missing '&' character there between hybrid and heirloom and expect to see listings for both hybrid and OP heirloom seeds. Long time tomato growers and seed customers will probably figure at first glance that the possibilities are a tossup between a marketing oxymoron and "Hybrids of Heirloom Tomatoes" (while wondering about the small possibility that some seed company has bequeathed you it's stock of hybrid seed). They may even wonder if this is a site with a historical theme, bringing together seeds of great hybrids of the last 60 years all in one place (and maybe some that have been discontinued by the companies that brought them to market originally). Seems like it would be kind of a niche market for the amateur grower, attracting people who like to experiment and are always willing to try a new variety and see how it does. The amateur growers who insist on OP seed will mostly ignore it. They might browse it and try one or two, just for curiousity sake, but growing hybrids is something that they are specifically trying to avoid as a matter of policy. On the other hand, the same amateur growers that always grow a few hybrids anyway, just for their reliability, will probably try "hybrid heirlooms" to see if they are comparably reliable and taste better than what they normally use for that purpose. For commercial growers, the bottom line is everything. They'll trial it. If it grows well, tends to survive to maturity, produces well, and customers like it, they'll buy seeds by the pound and grow it for market. The "customer" in this case is likely to be primarily the produce wholesaler and/or food manufacturer, which means how well it keeps in transport and storage is a bigger issue than flavor. Fresh markets and restaurants may have different parameters, and there is a market there for better tasting tomatoes even with less robust storage characteristics, but those are likely smaller markets than grocery stores and tomato product manufacturers. (Do Campbell's and Heinz still develop their own cultivars? Or subcontract that sort of development? Just wondering.)
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November 26, 2007 | #11 |
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Tom,
I am still catching up with T-ville posts as I havent been checking it for a long time. So I just came across your post. Personally, I do not like the term Hybrid Heirloom Tomatoes. This just doesn't sound right to me, as 'hybrid' and 'heirloom' are contradictory terms, in my opinion. I love trialing new hybrids that were created from heirloom tomatoes, but the first thing that comes to my mind is a thought about 'stabilizing' the hybrid variety I liked, especially when the hybrid was a cross of just two heirloom parents,as I believe in seeds saving and passing them on from one generation to another and share seeds with other gardeners. That's what my and my husband's families did, and I am proud to carry on this family tradition. . So please take into consideration my personal values when reading my response .
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November 26, 2007 | #12 |
Tomatovillian™
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In the weeks since my previous post in this
thread, "hybrid heirloom" has actually turned up in a seed vendor listing: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=7008
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