Something a little weird with a Ramapo

[saltmarsh]

I grew about 2 dozen Ramapo F9 plants this year and was very satisfied with their growth and production.

I prune to 2 stems, leaving the natural fork below the first bloom cluster. All the plants had the same growth and appearance and produced identical fruit except for 1 stem on 1 plant where all the fruit on that stem looked just like Cherokee purple fruit. Taste was very good, so naturally I saved the seeds from all the fruit of all the clusters on that stem. The other stem on the plant produced normal Ramapo fruit. But can anyone explain how this happens and what to expect from these seeds? Claud

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by saltmarsh

I grew about 2 dozen Ramapo F9 plants this year and was very satisfied with their growth and production.

I prune to 2 stems, leaving the natural fork below the first bloom cluster. All the plants had the same growth and appearance and produced identical fruit except for 1 stem on 1 plant where all the fruit on that stem looked just like Cherokee purple fruit. Taste was very good, so naturally I saved the seeds from all the fruit of all the clusters on that stem. The other stem on the plant produced normal Ramapo fruit. But can anyone explain how this happens and what to expect from these seeds? Claud

Claud, I'm the one who dehybridized Ramapo F1 to an OP so I know it well.

If all the fruits on one branch are different from the others it sounds as though what you have is a somatic mutation.

Somatic mutations occur in the DNA of plant cells while seed mutations occur in the DNA of the seed.

I've seen two somatic mutations. One was with Green Gage which is yellow at maturity but one branch had all red tomatoes. The other one was with Dix Doight de Naples where one branch still had red fruits but the shape of those fruits was quite different.

We have the variety Yellow Riesentraube b/c someone found ONE yellow fruit on a plant that had normal red ones.

So save those seeds. Aha, I just reread your post and you pruned to just two stems, so we're talking about no branches, but different fruits on one stem.

So apparently the somatic mutation took place just above where the two stems diverged, on just the one stem.

Hope that helps and it sure does surprise me that the fruits were so different b'c usually it's just a color change or shape change, and knowing the parents of Ramapo, there's nothing I know of with the parents that would bring in anything that looked like CP into what you found.

Were the CP fruits larger or smaller than the Ramapo fruits?

Carolyn

[saltmarsh]

Carolyn, thanks for the response. I purchased the seeds from Carol at Knapps's Fresh Veggies and this is the first year I've grown Ramapo.

When I saw the first ripe fruit on this stem, I did a double take. I had already picked tomatoes from the first clusters of the vines and the first clusters of the second stem on the plants were starting to show good color when I noticed the difference. I had 3 Cherokee Purple growing 2 rows over and these fruit looked enough like them to be twins. The leaves and branching and growth habit were identical to other Ramapos. The fruit were about the same size as the Ramapos on the other stem of the plant, about 6 - 10 oz. They ripened at the same time as the other Ramapos.

If I had taken pictures, people would have thought I was fooling them. This is the first time in 50 years I've seen a plant like this. But when I was a kid, we only grew 3 or 4 different varieties each year.

But this is a strange year for tomatoes. I had several Peron and Seek No Further Love Apple plants that sprouted suckers in the middle of their leaves. I've never seen that before either. Claud

[saltmarsh]

Carolyn, I've planted the seeds saved from the Ramapo branch mentioned above and now that they have their true leaves, I have a question.

About 95% of the seedlings are potato leaf and about 5% are regular leaf. Does Ramapo have any potato leaf parentage? Claud

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by saltmarsh

Carolyn, I've planted the seeds saved from the Ramapo branch mentioned above and now that they have their true leaves, I have a question.

About 95% of the seedlings are potato leaf and about 5% are regular leaf. Does Ramapo have any potato leaf parentage? Claud

No, Ramapo does not have PL parentage. Here are the parents of Ramapo:

(Posted by naplesgardener: I assume the real parentage of Ramapo is secret...
Posted by hoosiercherokee: Besides, what are the two parents of Ramapo? What are your bets both of them are vintage commercial varieties?
I got my Ramapo seeds from the son-in-law of Dr. Bernard Pollack, who developed the the variety at Rutgers. He's probably the anonymous "retired plant genetecist" mentioned in the Times article. Here's Bernie's reply to my question about the parents of the Ramapo:

"...No secret. Ramapo is the result of a cross of KCA x Abbie. KCA is a breeding line I got from a plant breeder working for the Campbell Soup Co. in NJ and Abbie (named after my daughter) from a breeding line I received from a plant breeder friend in North Dakota. This line was still segregating so I made selections from it and purified the type I was interested in. Takes about 7 years of inbreeding..."

So, there it is.)

Carolyn, who read this thread from the beginning and noted I said it could be a somatic mutation, but you are talking about two mutations, change in fruit and change in leaf form, and the odds would be astronomical to get two spontaneous somatic mutations in plant DNA at the same time. Perhaps some cross pollination somewhere? I don't know.

[saltmarsh]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

No, Ramapo does not have PL parentage. Here are the parents of Ramapo:

(Posted by naplesgardener: I assume the real parentage of Ramapo is secret...
Posted by hoosiercherokee: Besides, what are the two parents of Ramapo? What are your bets both of them are vintage commercial varieties?
I got my Ramapo seeds from the son-in-law of Dr. Bernard Pollack, who developed the the variety at Rutgers. He's probably the anonymous "retired plant genetecist" mentioned in the Times article. Here's Bernie's reply to my question about the parents of the Ramapo:

"...No secret. Ramapo is the result of a cross of KCA x Abbie. KCA is a breeding line I got from a plant breeder working for the Campbell Soup Co. in NJ and Abbie (named after my daughter) from a breeding line I received from a plant breeder friend in North Dakota. This line was still segregating so I made selections from it and purified the type I was interested in. Takes about 7 years of inbreeding..."

So, there it is.)

Carolyn, who read this thread from the beginning and noted I said it could be a somatic mutation, but you are talking about two mutations, change in fruit and change in leaf form, and the odds would be astronomical to get two spontaneous somatic mutations in plant DNA at the same time. Perhaps some cross pollination somewhere? I don't know.

Thanks so much for the quick response. Just to be clear (and to get it down before my mind becomes muddled) the original plant had regular leaf leaves on both stems. The only obvious difference was the fruit. All the clusters on the main stem had normal tomatoes and leaves and all the clusters on secondary stem (natural fork) had different fruit with regular leaves.

All the fruit the seed were saved from were open pollenated. With 12 fruit some cross pollination may have happened. The plant had Ramapos on three sides North, South, and West; nothing on the East as it was on the first row position 3 (9 feet from the start of the row.). The closest non Ramapo plants would have been Manalucie Red (15' to the West), Earl's Faux (18' to the West), Creole (24' to the South), Lincoln Adams (24' to the Southwest), and San Francisco Fog 27' to the West).

I plan to plant all of the plants (regular leaf and potato leaf). I'll post photos as things progress. You are a treasure, Claud

[saltmarsh]

After some late sprouters grew their true leaves the final count is 117 potato leaf plants and 12 regular leaf plants.

32 of the potato leaf and 6 of the regular leaf plants will be planted in the garden tommorrow 3-14-2014. The rest will follow around 4-11-2014 after danger of frost is past.

[Wi-sunflower]

Of the plants near the Ramapo, Earl's Faux is potato leaf.

Lincoln Adams is also supposed to be PL, but if you got them from me there could have been some regular leaf plants there too. A friend gave me fruit from his Lincoln Adams plants and when we grew them the next year found some RL plants in the grow out. I believe the next seeds we saved were only from the PL plants, but there could still be a few odd seeds in there.

Carol

[saltmarsh]

Thanks for the info Carol. The Lincoln Adams did come from you and all were PL for me. Claud

[saltmarsh]

I'm trying a couple of experiments this year.

The first is planting out early vs planting out after frost is over. This isn't something new to me. If you look at my avatar it's a picture taken in 1963 of a south facing hillside with rows of tomatoes covered with "Hot Caps" - Heavy wax paper covers. The name is appropriate because when the sun is shining the caps will cook anything under them. They are held in place with dirt. So if frost is expected you cover the plants and uncover them before the sun can scald them. And when it rains you get to work in the mud. We only used them one year.

This year I'm going to protect a row of tomatoes with modified insulated shipping boxes. And covering them with 3/16" x 16" x 16" plate glass. The boxes cost $50 each ($25 for the box and $25 shipping) and the glass is $4 per pane. 44 tomato plants per row works out to $2200 for the boxes and $176 for glass. Now just how many tomatoes can I buy for $2376?

You can get the boxes for free from companies which need temp controlled shipping (think pet stores and pharmaceutical companies) They normally throw them in the garbage rather than pay the return shipping. Mine were free.

The glass panes are used for frameless display cases. I bought a used display 25 years ago for $50. It has 60 panes and all the attachments. So for me this is a lot cheaper than putting up a low tunnel.

Also a low tunnel is only good for about 4 degrees of protection but the box with foam between the glass and the box top is good for 10 degrees.

On Feb 24th the ground was tilled, 1/4 drip line with 1/2 gal. dripper every 6" installed, boxes placed on 2' centers, 3" composted wood chips put inside the boxes and more wood chips around the outside of the boxes and the glass placed on top to the boxes creating a mini greenhouse.

Ramapo 3-16-2014 021.JPG


2-24-2014 Garden Bed Prep 007.JPG


2-24-2014 Garden Bed Prep 014.JPG

It does get hot. 70.3 outside and 120.9 in the box.

Ramapo 3-14-2014 003.JPG

The boxes are left in place for about 3 weeks to warm the soil for transplanting and get past the worst weather.

Ramapo 3-14-2014 004.JPG

(Continued in post below)

[saltmarsh]

On Friday March 14 the glass was removed from the boxes and the tomatoes transplanted.

Soil Temp 55 degrees.

Ramapo 3-14-2014 005.JPG

Before the tomatoes went in, the boxes and wood chips were sprayed inside and out with garlic, pepper, and sage tea with horsetail tea and lacto baccilus added to the mix.

44 tomatoes were planted using a Stand N Plant.

Ramapo 3-14-2014 017.JPG

32 Ramapo PL

Ramapo 3-17-2014 001.JPG

6 Ramapo RL

Ramapo 3-17-2014 002.JPG

4 F4 Better Boy - The F3 parent won 2 double blind taste tests unanimously against F1 Better Boys grown by others last year.

Ramapo 3-17-2014 003.JPG

1 (not) Sophie's Choice - Seed from Tomatofest 2012 - There is another thread on Tomatoville about the seed not being true to type. * See note below.

Ramapo 3-17-2014 006.JPG

1 (not) Sophie's Choice - Seed from Tomatofest 2014 - I wanted to see if the problem had been corrected.

Ramapo 3-17-2014 005.JPG

A couple of things worth mentioning about the plant out.
The sun was shining, high was about 68 degrees, but the wind was out of the north at about 10 mph gusting to 15 to 20. The boxes provided perfect protection for the plants. Absolutely no transplant shock. Without the boxes they would have been broken off and beaten to pieces.

Normally the flea beatles are cutting leaves off before you get the plants in the ground. It's too early for the insects. No damage at all.

With the glass in the vent position as shown below the sun shining through the glass raises the temp in the box to 75 to 80 degrees. Really nice.

Ramapo 3-16-2014 003.JPG

The glass stayed in the vent position from Friday until Sunday Evening. Frost was forcast for Monday morning low of 34 rain and overcast with no sun and low of 36 on Tuesday morning.

I put the foam between the top of the box and the glass. It will stay in place until it warms up Tuesday morning. I checked the thermometer this morning (Monday). The low temp in the garden was 33.2 but the low in the boxes was 42.5 degrees. So far so good.

* Note - I first grew Sophie's Choice in 2009 using seeds from Southern Exposure Seed Exchange (SESE). I liked it and grew it again in 2010. Anyone who recieved Sophie's Choice from me in the seed swaps or by request recieved seeds from these 2 grow outs and they are true to type.

My son farms in Michigan and in 2012 I started growing his tomato plants for him to help him get an earlier start. I recommended Sophie's Choice as one of his tomatoes and he agreed, but because he's Organic he wanted organic seeds. He ordered his tomato seeds from Tomatofest. He grew about 100 Sophie's Choice in 2012 and again in 2013. This year he wants 500 plants instead of the 300 in years past. I was about out of the Sophie's Choice seed from Tomatofest so he reordered from them.

Then I read the thread about the seed mix up on Tomatoville. I called him and asked him to describe Sophie's Choice. He said it's a red tomato, the plant gets 4 or 5 feet tall, tastes pretty good and produces well. Turns out he's been growing the mixed up seeds the last 2 years without knowing it. He contacted Tomatofest to try to find what the seeds really are (He likes it and wants to keep on growing it.) and they told him they grew the seeds themselves and they were Sophie's Choice. So there you go. Claud

[JamesL]

Claud,
Love the boxes! Great write up as well. Thank you for sharing it.

[saltmarsh]

Thanks James, glad you're enjoying it.

Sunday night thru Tuesday morning proved to be an excellent test of the limits of the boxes.

The tomatoes were in the dark for about 42 hours. The double foil faced foam lid doesn't let any light in.

As I said earlier, I'm growing plants for my son and it's a 2 day drive from Mississippi to Michigan. I thought the plants might have to be stacked in a double or triple layers for the trip so I placed some plants in the dark for 48 hours with no apparent effect. I don't know how much longer they could have gone before problems showed up.

On Monday the outside low was 33.2 and the low in the boxes was 42.5, it was overcast and dreary with intermmitant showers with a high of 49. The temp inside the boxes only got up to 46 (soil temp helping).

They missed the forcast for Tuesday. Instead of the predicted 36, the low was 29.4 and the low in the boxes was 34.3.

About 10:30 AM the outside temp had risen to 50 with sunshine so I removed the covers and put the glass back in the vent position. It takes about 10 minutes to do the row.

By noon the temp inside the vented boxes was at 78 with no damage to any of the plants.

Without the foam between the glass and box I believe I would have lost the plants or they would have been badly damaged. Also I can't put too much faith in weather forcast. Better to be a little cautious perhaps.

The predicted low for Thursday morning is 36 degrees. Can anyone guess what I'm going to do Wednesday afternoon? Claud

[saltmarsh]

All of the mutated Ramapos have survived and produced well. And all of the fruit look like a Cherokee Purple fruit. But.

All of the Potato leaf Ramapos had fruit like this. They ranged in size from 10 ounces to over 1 pound 6 ounces. All of the vines (PL and RL) are over 12 feet now.

Many of the people who have bought it at the Farmer's Market say it's the best tomato they have ever tasted. I agree, but I'm probably biased.

[saltmarsh]

(Note: The Potato Leaf mutation is posted above. I'm having a little trouble getting the photos to move around for me tonight)
All the Regular Leaf mutations produced fruit as shown below. The taste is the same as the Potato Leaf but in a 2 - 4 ounce package. They make a great salad tomato. Plant size and growth habit is the same as the Potato Leaf mutation.