Mint Julep - a.k.a. Michael Pollan

[Tania]

Does anyone knows why Michael Pollan variety was renamed to Mint Julep? And who renamed it?

I see Mint Julep offered by 2 seed vendors, both saying the original name was Michael Pollan.

I see Wild Boar Farms (the breeder) still offers it as Michael Pollan: http://shop.wildboarfarms.com/MICHAEL-POLLAN-MP.htm

Tatiana

[Tania]

Actually, there are a couple of other Brad's varieties that are solds with slightly different names by other vendors.

Examples are
Blue Berries (Wild Boar Farms) --> Indigo Blue Berries (TGS) (and I think someone else is also offering it as Indigo Blue Berries, but the name escapes me at the moment)
Blue Beauty (Wild Boar Farms) --> Indigo Blue Beauty (TGS)

[Fred Hempel]

To market a tomato (or any product), sometimes a name change is seen as essential for success. The wholesaler selling the seed (AP Whaley) is selling it as "Mint Julep" and is clearly identifying the variety as (AKA Michael Pollan). It looks like all retailers are following suit.

I would guess that one or more of the retail sellers was not happy with the name, "Michael Pollan", and they lobbied for a name change that they felt was better suited for a popularization of the variety.

Since Brad Gates is collaborating with some of the folks using the new name, I think it is safe to assume that he is going along with the name change (although he has chosen not to use it himself).

I think that the transparency regarding the name change makes this a case where it is completely acceptable. It is a little bit confusing, but it is completely different from cases when someone takes someone else's tomato and changes the name without regard for the breeder, or with the intent of pretending something is new when it is really just being appropriated (stolen).

[Tania]

Thank you Fred. That explains it! (I am guessing a similar things with some Artisan varieties?)

I keep forgetting that the main goal of the seed sellers is profit. (When will I learn? LOL.)

For products, yes, it makes sense to me. For tomato (or other seeds) varieties - no, it does not make sense to me. But this is just me

I thought Brad chose this name for a reason, and this is probably why he is sticking to the original name.

The interesting thing is that other seed vendors never mention the breeder in Mind Julep description. Is this also a part of an agreement?

[Fred Hempel]

They don't mention Brad Gates, but they do mention Michael Pollan, and that does indirectly identify the breeder. I doubt that there is an agreement that Brad not be mentioned. In fact, he is mentioned at the AP Whaley site and at the Log House Plants site, as his whole collection is highlighted.

And yes, without outside influence of partners many of the cherry tomatoes we released this year would have names like "venere", "violaverde" and "green day". And in fact, I still reserve the right to sell my varieties using these original names when it makes sense. For example, although "sunrise bumble bee" may be interesting and attractive to gardeners, I know that "venere" is a better name for use on the menus of the places I sell fruits to.

So, I have allowed name changes, while reserving the right to use my original name when I need to. It's a tough business.

[Wi-sunflower]

Actually I had several customers last spring that noticed the plant "Michael Pollan" and knew who that is and were amazed he had a tomato variety named after him. So then I told the WBF story. I person was actually a student of Michael's. I don't remember if they bought any plants tho.

Carol

[Salsacharley]

I just received the 2014 Totally Tomatoes catalog and they have their entire back cover listing WBF products and give Brad Gates credit. They also call Michael Pollan Mint Julep. All his other varieties use his original name. The photo of the Michael Pollan looks more "pear-like" than the MP's I grew so at first I thought a new variety based on MP was being released.

The inside front cover has the Artisan Bumblebee and Tiger varieties presented with very nice pictures. They don't have Lucky Tiger, and they throw Blush in with the Tigers, calling it "Tiger Blush".

I was "Lucky" to order Lucky Tiger on Nov 19 when it was released, so I only have to wait until Dec 29 for my backorder to arrive from Johnny's.

[carolyn137]

I can see the point of the breeders wanting to increase sales of a variety with a certain name, and thus change it to another name. And I can also see the point of consumers who, if in the know, are totally confused by a variety name being changed, and thirdly, for those not in the know a changed name is totally new to them.

And that new name might well increase sales.

But. I must admit that I do not like to see the name of a variety already out there in the public being changed to a new name. And this in a general sense, not directed at any one breeder.

Carolyn

[MikeInCypress]

I have to agree with Carolyn. It is not much different than what Burpee did with Bucks County and what ever they called it the next year. I feel if a tomato is introduced under one name it should keep that name. Michael Pollan has been available for a couple years. It should stay Michael Pollan. Blush should stay Blush, not Blush Tiger.

Just my 2 cents worth.

MikeInCypress

[Fred Hempel]

I happen to agree about Blush. Most Retailers (including Johnny's) agree too. But, I don't feel strong enough to demand strict name adherence by everyone.

Originally Posted by MikeInCypress

I have to agree with Carolyn. It is not much different than what Burpee did with Bucks County and what ever they called it the next year. I feel if a tomato is introduced under one name it should keep that name. Michael Pollan has been available for a couple years. It should stay Michael Pollan. Blush should stay Blush, not Blush Tiger.

Just my 2 cents worth.

MikeInCypress

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Salsacharley

I just received the 2014 Totally Tomatoes catalog and they have their entire back cover listing WBF products and give Brad Gates credit. They also call Michael Pollan Mint Julep. All his other varieties use his original name. The photo of the Michael Pollan looks more "pear-like" than the MP's I grew so at first I thought a new variety based on MP was being released.

The inside front cover has the Artisan Bumblebee and Tiger varieties presented with very nice pictures. They don't have Lucky Tiger, and they throw Blush in with the Tigers, calling it "Tiger Blush".

I was "Lucky" to order Lucky Tiger on Nov 19 when it was released, so I only have to wait until Dec 29 for my backorder to arrive from Johnny's.

I got my TT catalog today and noticed when listing Mint Julep, it says after it, aka Michael Pollan.

When Jung's first bought all the companies I offered to one person who doesn't post here anymore, ahem, to try and correct all the wrong infomation that came with the former TT, did so, spent hours doing it, gave it to him and he said he lost it.

So when I see Mule Team described as being grown by generations of folks, to give one example, I wince and eat some more chocoloate to calm down.

Carolyn

[Tania]

It is important to have one unique name attached to a variety from preservation perspective.

Over the years and in many seed trades, variety descriptions may get lost, and we end up with the same varieties passed around under different names. Well, we know the consequences.

I can understand having a new catchy marketing name attached to fruits sold at a market for consumption, or to restaurants. I think it is called 're-branding'. Rebranding aims at profit increase. No harm is done - sales go up, customers are happy, products are bought and used/consumed.

But I believe there is a big difference when we are talking about open-pollinated seeds. As a preservationist, I agree with Carolyn and Mike. I do not think re-branding should apply to seeds. Seed is something that many of us preserve and pass around, along with the variety name. It is a very similar issue with translated names.

But I can see the difference in opinions on this particular topic - as some folks are focusing on making profit and others focus more on preservation aspects. As the goals are different, the opinions are also not the same. Both sides have important points to make and have their loyal customer base.

Some customers would buy a variety just because it has a lovely name. Some will buy a variety that has an intriguing story. Some with buy a mix of both That's all fine... until a moment when somebody decides they can make more sales if they change a name, or make up an interesting story which may not be accurate (but who knows!)... But I think this does not happen very often, not with malicious intent.

The vast majority of seed vendors do amazing job preserving varieties, along with the accurate names, histories, and proper attribution to breeders. My hat goes off to all these folks, and I am so happy there are so many of them!

But I do find some catalog blurbs or new names that puzzle me. It does bug me when a breeder's name is not mentioned.

When I see 'Blue Berries' and 'Indigo Blue Berries' (just as a very small example), it does make me wonder if these are the same or different (i.e., may be one being 'improved' or reselected) - but how would I know from these catalog descriptions?? Luckily Brad is around, so he can answer this particular question, but what if we do not have a breeder to question?

Wow, this was a very long $0.01! I better stop now.

Tatiana

[travis]

What's done is done, and cannot be undone. It's doubtful that recurrence can be prevented by repetitious expression of opinion.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

What's done is done, and cannot be undone. It's doubtful that recurrence can be prevented by repetitious expression of opinion.

I had just finished reading here at Tville, saw you were online, had to leave since Freda was here to take the trash out for pickup, but bet $10 that when I came back that you would have posted in this thread.

So you owe me $10 Bill and I know you have my address.

What's done is done with regard to changing the name of this particular variety, and a few more, but I don't see the naysayers being wrong in repeating their opinions about perhaps a more general problem, and one we might see more of in the in the future.

I don't know all who read here and their possible connection to breeding, I did see Randy Gardner was online this AM, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were more who are involved with breeding and naming varieties who have user names that I wouldn't recognize.

OK, let's up that bet to $20 and some seeds of Daniel Burson or whatever you think I might like otherwise.

And if there's anything you might want to put in my experimental section of my seed offer in early January, you also have my e-mail address.

Carolyn, who just finished a great book about John Chapman, aka Johnny Appleseed, the man and the myth, and the definition of Hoosier was there, which I'd never seen before, as originally used, not just to more recently ID someone from Indiana.

[Tania]

I have a logistical question.

When we have the same variety being offered under 2 different names, which name should I use as a 'primary' name at Tatiana's TOMATObase? [The 'primary' name is the name of the article where all the 'alternative' names are being redirected to]

I am inclined to use the original name given to the variety by the breeder. Example: Blush is primary, 'Tiger Blush' will be redirecting to 'Blush'.

In case of a translated names, I use name in the original language, and have all the translated names redirected. Example: 'Malachite Box' will redirect to the original name 'Malakhitovaya Shkatulka', as we know for sure this variety originated in Russia - hence the Russian name, transliterated.

This is less obvious in case of heirloom seeds when name gets changed (which happens when the original name was a sort of a 'working name' until a consensus was reached about which name should be used). In these cases the later name is usually more descriptive and used more, so it becomes the 'primary'.

I know this gets a bit confusing and frustrating for folks, and I do know that not every variety in Tatiana's TOMATObase is following the 'guidelines' yet. Some cases are tricky!