White Current X Cherokee Green

[gflynn]

Tomato Folk,

Last year I crossed White Current with Cherokee Green. This year I will be growing the F1 Hybrid. What color can I expect the fruit to be?

I would guess green or pale yellow but it seems like there is often more going on with these things then I know and so often these things turn out red for some reason.

Greg

[nctomatoman]

Hey Greg - I am thinking that yellow or pale yellow should win out - in the Dwarf project, Golden Dwarf Champion (pale yellow) X Green Giant (green) gave medium yellow F1 fruit.

By the way, I suspect that White Currant could be Coyote, a variety I introduced through the SSE in the early 90s and misnamed it Ivory Currant prior to knowing the actual name (which I found out the following year) - unfortunately, the old name persists here and there. It isn't a big jump to go from Ivory to White Currant - I am not absolutely positive, but it is possible. They are quite tiny tomatoes that are nearly white on the blossom end, shading to pale yellow at the shoulders - and nearly translucent.

[Tom Wagner]

What Craig said is generally right. White or yellow crossed to green flesh will give you yellow flesh. There are a few exceptions, but that is what makes it fun.

Tom Wagner

[gflynn]

Tom and Criag,

Thanks! Now I suppose the next question is what will the F2s look like. I suppose that most will be Pale Yellow and a few will be Green. Then further I would guess that most would be Cherry and only a few would be beefsteak.

What do you think?

Also,

I have noticed that the foliage of the first few leaves of seedlings can give away the traits to expect in the fruit. In this case, then, if the foliage is the squat fine foliage of White Current (or Coyote) I could expect a cherry whereas if I get foliage like Cherokee Green I would more likely get a beefsteak.

Do you guys think this is a good guess?

Thanks,
Greg

[Tom Wagner]

The F-2 generation can throw a few surprises despite a Punnet Square ratio. You'd think the yellows to green would be 3:1 but it seems that is not the case in my experience, as some greenish yellows or yellowish greens are in there. Occasionally you may even find some muddy colors.

The F-2's will have leaf types independent of the fruit size. So don't be upset if you find cherry tomatoes with the Cherokee Green leaf shape. Smaller leaf types are usually not large slicers, however.

Anything currant in tomatoes will trouble the F-2, F-3 generations for extra seedy types even if a few fruit approach the beefsteak shape and size.

I need to compile my records on this kind of thing. Too often I just write detials about individual segregations on a single fruit seed descent and not the whole family.

[nctomatoman]

The other complicating factor that will make this interesting - Coyote has a clear skin, Cherokee Green has an amber skin. So you will find some interesting combinations just due to this!

[carolyn137]

Craig, Coyote is listed in the other species section of the Yearbook, and a commercial source is Marianne Jones, but there's also

Currant, White

And in the 2009 Yearbook 4 folks list it:

CT, seed source To1, which I think is Totally Tomatoes without looking it up to be sure.

Jere Gettle, who got his seeds from Will Weaver in 2001 so it might be offered at Baker Creek, but I didn't check

Bill Minkey , who got his seeds from Weaver is 2001 also

Ake, from Sweden, no seed source given

Greg, what was your source of the white currant you used in the cross?

[nctomatoman]

I listed ivory currant in 1990, then changed it to Coyote a few years later....so plenty of time for things to get messed up name wise in between!

[gflynn]

Carolyn,

At a MAGTAG event several years ago someone named Wayne brought some White Current and they came in 9th over all for flavor. I particularly like them and I snagged a couple of the little tomatoes for seeds

After relooking at the MAGTAG section of this forum I can see that it was a Wayne that brought this tomato to MAGTAG. I have added a posting and will see if anyone remembers this person so that I can contact him and ask about the origins of the seeds.

Tom,

Due to limited growing space I have to limit the ones I grow out. You don't seem to have that problem :-)

I am going to limit myself to seedlings with leaves like White Current hoping to produce a green cherry. This is my ultimate goal.

Greg

[gflynn]

Another Question on this cross,

Should I expect and intermediate leaf type of some sort?

The sprouts I have started look like Yellow Current leaves and nothing like Cherokee Green leaves. I am wondering if I don't have a cross here and if I should start the rest of my seed?

Greg

[travis]

How did you make the cross?

Did you cross Currant pollen to Cherokee ovules? Or vice versa?

Did you emasculate the pollen recipient?

If the cross took, you should have 100% same leaf form in all the F1 seedlings unless one parent was F1 to begin with. The leaf form that expresses in the F1 most likely will be whichever form is dominant. When I look at Jenny F1 young plants, for example, I definitely see a currant tomato leaf shape predominating.

[gflynn]

I just took the flower of the Cherokee Green and then opened the new flower of the White current and rubbed away. Not a very exact method but I figured it might work.

They all look like the White Current leaf type.

Greg

[travis]

Greg, when you cross it might be helpful to use the parent with the dominant traits as the pollen donor and the parent with the recessive traits as the pollen recipient. For example, small fruit is dominant and potato leaf is recessive. Therefore if you were to cross the pollen of a regular leaf tomato onto a potato leaf ovary, you will be able to tell when the first few leaves emerge whether the cross took. And if you crossed small fruit pollen (currant tomato) onto a large fruit ovary (Cherokee Green) you'd be able to tell if the cross took when the first flower clusters showed the typical long, multi-flowered clusters. Just some thoughts.

I would've gone the other way with your cross pollination, but time will tell I guess. I'd say if the tomatoes end up about twice the size of White Currant fruit the cross may have taken.

[gflynn]

Travis,

Thanks for the info. I could always have tried the cross both ways and then, since I don't know all of the details of recessive vs dominant in the leaf type, I could have been able to tell immediately when I found seeds from either side that emerged looking identical in leaf type but on one side different

Greg

[Raymondo]

If White Currant has a stigma that pokes out of the anther cone (an exserted stigma, opposite of inserted) then you would be very likely to have a number of crossed seeds with the method you used. If you didn't remove the anther cone early enough, then you'll also have plenty of selfings too. You might have to sow lots of seeds to find your crosses.