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Old February 19, 2018   #211
jmsieglaff
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Originally Posted by MarinaRussian View Post
Al, they were super tasty, that's why I kept this line. It wasn't a multiflora, but the trusses were amazing
Those look great! Will be looking for them once they’re stable. I’m hoping to find some great F2 leads from cross 19x this year.
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Old February 19, 2018   #212
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Finally starting to see some with more character.....
Love the look of these Dan!
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Old March 1, 2018   #213
BettyC-5
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I have a question. I understand F3, F4 etc. When there is F4-1-4, what does the 1 and 4 stand for?
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Old March 1, 2018   #214
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Since the breeder hasn't answered, I will give it an educated guess.

Often, the numbers represent a specific line that has been selected from a breeding project. However, different breeders use different notations.

If it were my lines, it would represent seeds from a specific F3 selection called #1.

Saved seed from the F3 plant labeled #1 would be grown out (F4), and it would represent plant #4 in the F4 generation.

It may be none of that, but that is generally how I label segregating generations.
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Old March 1, 2018   #215
dfollett
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WhippoorwillG is correct.

For example:

33X-F4-1-4 would be F4 seed from 33X-F3-1 plant #4. If I were to grow several of those and save seed from plant #2 of that group, I would designate that seed 33X-F5-1-4-2. Hopefully, that makes some sense.

This is all new to me. I don't know if there is a conventional method of naming the pros use. I'm making a lot of this up as I go.

It can get fairly cumbersome, but I figure by the time I get to F5 or F6 it ought to be worth a name.... That's my intent anyway.
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Old March 1, 2018   #216
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Can you post a sample of your spreadsheet? I figure I should just follow how you are doing your data, rather than just work up a new sheet. Already have some popping out. I'm planning on going out 15 of each of the 7 varieties.
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Old March 11, 2018   #217
dfollett
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Can you post a sample of your spreadsheet? I figure I should just follow how you are doing your data, rather than just work up a new sheet. Already have some popping out. I'm planning on going out 15 of each of the 7 varieties.
I'm not organized enough to have everything together in a spreadsheet or I would.
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Old March 11, 2018   #218
dfollett
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Default How heritable is flavor?

How heritable is flavor? I found something interesting yesterday. From a group of F5 plants in the fine-leaf micro line from the Tidy X Pork Chop cross, I identified 4 plants I felt were the best from a growth/production perspective. I decided to taste and save seed from the very best.

I don't have a very good sense of taste, so I have recently started using the refractometer again to help in that process. The refractometer measures sugar content – the higher the number, the more sugar in the juice. What I found surprised me. The fruit from each plant was consistent with other fruit from the same plant, but the plants differed wildly. From my limited experience, most tomato plants are in the 5-7 Brix range.

• From plant #1, no fruit was over 4 on the Brix scale – very strong flavor – good flavor but a little too tart for me.
• From plant #2, everything was between 10 and 12 on the Brix scale – also very strong flavor – delicious – almost too sweet for a tomato.
• Plants #3 and #4 were 5.5 and 7.0 respectively. They both also had a lot of flavor but were more tomatoey – like a real tomato, not a cherry – especially the 7.0.

They were all grown in the same conditions - soil - light - temperature and fertilizer. I kept seed from each one of them.

Hence, the question. How heritable is flavor? Can anyone who has experience with the Dwarf Project or other breeding programs tell me at what stage the flavor stabilizes. (My guess is there isn't a real answer that doesn't start with "it depends").

I'm going to grow the F6s as four separate lines. I'd like to find two or three folks willing to grow a couple of each and give me feedback. By this time next year, I hope to have them at F8 or F9, at which point they are supposed to be stable.
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Old March 11, 2018   #219
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• From plant #2, everything was between 10 and 12 on the Brix scale – also very strong flavor – delicious – almost too sweet for a tomato.

I'm going to grow the F6s as four separate lines. I'd like to find two or three folks willing to grow a couple of each and give me feedback. By this time next year, I hope to have them at F8 or F9, at which point they are supposed to be stable.
There is no such thing as "too sweet for a tomato". I would love to grow out some of this line for you, but don't know if you want someone who will grow out all 4, which might be too much considering what's on it's way to PA already. I can measure the brix, though.

kath

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Old March 11, 2018   #220
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Great question, Dan, and I promise I won't start it with the phrase "it depends"! (though of course it does).

let's look at some examples from our early work.

Sneezy - Green Giant X Golden Dwarf Champion. Superb flavor X very good flavor. The F1 was excellent. The F2s ranged from very good to superb. Flavor was consistent from the start from the vast majority of the selections.

Sleepy - Stump of the World X Budai. Superb flavor X so so flavor. The F1 was so-so. The selections were all over the map. Rosella Purple (delicious) came out of Rosella Purple (pretty good) at around the 4th generation and stayed that way. Rosella Crimson (which can vary widely) to me still varies - we are out at the 8-10th generation and beyond.

Witty - Cherokee Green X Budai - Superb flavor X so-so flavor. The f1 was good to so-so. The selections are to me good but not great, the best being Sean's Yellow Dwarf, consistent right from the start - F3 or F4 - yet Kangaroo Paw Red not only varies in color, but flavor, out to the F8.

One additional comment - using sugar content (brix) as a marker for flavor may be risky, because tomato flavor is so complex and I suspect composed of many many trace elements - and, as you note with yourself, there is wide variation in how each of us perceive taste.

The answer perhaps? Use a small group of people to evaluate flavor from single plant selections during the season.

As we've discussed, I think that indeterminate vs dwarf genetics are so much simpler than the micro situation - as you are seeing complexity in plant habit, it is likely there is going to be complexity in inheritable flavors as well.

Just my two cents!
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Old March 11, 2018   #221
Koala Doug
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In addition to what Craig has already touched upon, this paper adds a bit more depth into what other compounds (besides the sugars and the acids) make up the flavor profile in tomatoes: http://ucanr.edu/datastoreFiles/608-293.pdf
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Old March 11, 2018   #222
dfollett
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Originally Posted by nctomatoman View Post
Great question, Dan, and I promise I won't start it with the phrase "it depends"! (though of course it does).

let's look at some examples from our early work.

Sneezy - Green Giant X Golden Dwarf Champion. Superb flavor X very good flavor. The F1 was excellent. The F2s ranged from very good to superb. Flavor was consistent from the start from the vast majority of the selections.

Sleepy - Stump of the World X Budai. Superb flavor X so so flavor. The F1 was so-so. The selections were all over the map. Rosella Purple (delicious) came out of Rosella Purple (pretty good) at around the 4th generation and stayed that way. Rosella Crimson (which can vary widely) to me still varies - we are out at the 8-10th generation and beyond.

Witty - Cherokee Green X Budai - Superb flavor X so-so flavor. The f1 was good to so-so. The selections are to me good but not great, the best being Sean's Yellow Dwarf, consistent right from the start - F3 or F4 - yet Kangaroo Paw Red not only varies in color, but flavor, out to the F8.

One additional comment - using sugar content (brix) as a marker for flavor may be risky, because tomato flavor is so complex and I suspect composed of many many trace elements - and, as you note with yourself, there is wide variation in how each of us perceive taste.

The answer perhaps? Use a small group of people to evaluate flavor from single plant selections during the season.

As we've discussed, I think that indeterminate vs dwarf genetics are so much simpler than the micro situation - as you are seeing complexity in plant habit, it is likely there is going to be complexity in inheritable flavors as well.

Just my two cents!
Thanks for the insight, Craig.

I agree with the cautionary comment about Brix measurements. I just started using it again. I quit using it a while ago for the reason you caution about. There definitely is more to tomato flavor than sugar. The fruit with the Brix of 10+ didn't have any more flavor than the ones with the Brix of 4 (perhaps less), but it was very different and 'sweeter' goes a long way toward describing that difference. The 7 Brix tasted more like a 'real' tomato than the sweet one.

On the flip side, sugar content is an important part of flavor. There was a huge difference in 'sweetness' between the two, which was reflected in the Brix reading. I use it as a crutch because I really don't have a very good sense of taste. Sinus surgery years ago took nearly all of my sense of smell and a lot of my taste. I miss the subtle differences between flavors. I read people talking about 'smokey' and other flavor nuances and just scratch my head.

I'm also hampered by not having a 'season' with everything ripening simultaneously - but that is a self-created problem. I have some at every stage of growth - seedlings - potted up - growing - maturing at all times. This month one group ripens. Next month another one does. I have a hard enough time comparing two tasted one after another. Trying to compare one to the one I ate last month is something else altogether. But that's my problem.

I am going to play with the refractometer for a while and see how the sugar level tracks from generation to generation. Maybe I'll learn something. If I do, I'll share.
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Old March 11, 2018   #223
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Originally Posted by kath View Post
There is no such thing as "too sweet for a tomato". I would love to grow out some of this line for you, but don't know if you want someone who will grow out all 4, which might be too much considering what's on it's way to PA already. I can measure the brix, though.

kath
It will be next weekend before the seeds are dry. I'll send a few from the extra sweet plant for you to try. No sense in wasting seeds from the extra tart one on someone with your taste buds.....

It would be nice if they hold true, but I doubt it will be that easy....
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Old March 12, 2018   #224
kath
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No sense in wasting seeds from the extra tart one on someone with your taste buds.....


Yes! I'm excited about this one! Thanks, Dan!

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Old March 12, 2018   #225
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Dan, my refractometer is in my travel bag that goes back and forth all summer to the
mountain farm where I have the main garden and grape and fruit trees. Cherries, lots
of berries, currants, etc.

Rarely used it for tomatoes as, 'it depends'. . Never really panned out in the past as far
as the charts go. Like Craig mentioned, some of my best varieties are never very high
brix. If the hot house growers we find in the grocery used brix, the shelves would be empty.

BUT, last September I sprinted for my refractometer during a dwarf tasting as one variety, from
an Emmy hunt, was very unusual. Ripe summer melon, cantaloupe and honeydew, pink
grapefruit, sweet and acidic. Very well balanced and clearly had tomato flavor. All fruit brixed
at 9-11.5...well above my preferred dark buttery smokey toms. (Cherokee chocolate, GGWT, etc)

My opinion, a valuable tool in our 'hunt' situation where we are looking for something a bit different?
Nice to have it around any who.
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