seed saving problem

[the999bbq]

I'm having a problem with some varieties when it comes to saving seeds.
The classical routine I use is : remove seeds (and jelly) into container with some water, than I "wash" every day for three days with some water to remove all but the seeds. After three days the seeds are usually clean (fermented) enough to dry.
With some varieties I have the problem that they seem to sprout under water after day 2.

Is there something I can do to prevent this (isn't seed supposed to be dormant until dry and than wet again ?) ?

[feldon30]

I would follow one of the existing fermentation strategies. Washing and disturbing the seeds every day is not a technique I've heard of before.

[arnesr]

I'm not an expert, but I think you maybe washing them prematurely. By washing them and adding water you are changing the acidic environment in which fermentation occurs. I usually just let mine ferment for about a week and then hose them off though a strainer and spread the seeds out on a coffee filter to dry.

The only time I've had a problem with them sprouting is when I didn't spread them out enough to dry quickly.

You could also try one of the other methods involving TSP or Oxiclean to speed things up and avoid fermentation.

[orflo]

I never use water, except for the final cleaning. I just put them in a glass jar, let them ferment (only if the amount of juice is very small, I add a little bit of water, but ,in fact it slows down the fermentation a little bit, but sometimes I have to do it), and leave them for a few days, on occasional stirring speeds up the process. After 3 or 4 days I clean them, I never have germination problems,
Frank

[amideutch]

Peter, arnesr and orflo have it right. I started doing a combination of fermenting the seeds and cleaning with TSP (trisodiumphosphate) and it works great. Put the seeds and pulp in the jar with a little water added and put the lid on the jar but don't tighten. Set them out of the way and forget about them for a week and then do your cleaning routine. At this point I dissolve a little TSP in a bowl of water and dump my seeds into a nylon mesh sieve (strainer) and put it in the bowl and rub the seeds around for 30 seconds and rinse under the faucet. What gel was left has dissolved and they are ready for drying. Ami

[Toe Knee]

Hi, In our greenhouse last srping we grew seeds from a tomato we got from a farmers market last fall. We followed the classic ferment a week or so, then rinse, dry and store in a cool dry dark place. We thought this was enough to prevent disease- alway had for the last 16 years.

After we had transplanted around 6000 plants of 70 varieties to be sold around the first week of May, we noticed what was soon diagnosed as Bacterial spot. We had to destroy the whole lot and start again, or risk spreading this mild but persistent disease to others. Our University of Kentucky head plant pathologist Kenny Seebold was a great resource in helping us formulate a plan for treating our seeds from now on.He edited an article I wrote on it, and I will publish it on this forum soon. But the main points Mr. Seebold impressed on me were:
1. Fermentation is good for most diseases, but not enough for all diseases.
2. Some diseases like bacterial spot can survive fermentation, so just before sowing them in the spring, bleach treatment helps kill that set of diseases if present.
3. The worst, though, are diseases like tobacco mosaic virus, which can penetrate the seed coat, and be completeley unaffected by either fermentation or bleach treatment. To prevent these one must use heat treatment, which calls for a hot water bath at much less than boiling, for a certain amount of time. This method drops viability down to 40% to 50% if I remember correctly, so you must save more seed if these diseases are a threat to you.
4. The proliferation of seed saving heirloom growers means there are many more opportunities for diseases to spread, so best to play it safe and assume all new seed you get has the worst diseases and treat for that.

I am sorry not to have the specifics on bleach or heat treatment. I promise them soon. We lost potential for 12,000 to 15,000 US dollars from those sales. Good thing we weren't relying on them. We survived and learned, and were determined to make something good come of it, if possible.

I will publish that article soon.
Toe Knee

[carolyn137]

Toe Knee, there's one main point that was not mentioned and that's that all NEW foliage infections are airborne.

So fermentation will never be the perfect way to eliminate certain diseases and nor will bleach.

Most bacterial pathogens are in the endosperm of the seed and require hot water treatment which is not easy to do in a home environment.

The best studies on what fermentation does or does not do were done by Dr. Helene ________ at Cornell.

The take home lesson is that no pathogens are removed entirely of those that have been assessed, and that what one is doing is simply lessening the number of adventitious pathogens on the seed coat. Fermentation cannot destroy any pathogens in the seed endosperm.

Infection is a quantitative process so lessening the number of pathogens does help prevent some diseases.

But again, ALL NEW infections with foliage pathogens are via airborne transmission and that cannot be prevented unless one trys to use a spray regimen ASAP after plant set out. And while there is an excellent anti-fungal for A Solani ( Early Blight) and Septoria Leaf Spot, both fungal, the treatment for the bacterial foliage pathogens Bacterial SPot and Bacterial Speck are less effective.

[Toe Knee]

Hi, Carolyn137,
Thank you for your support and good information. I agree heartily with most , and my only disagreement is a minor one. According to University of Kentucky head plant pathologist Kenny Seebold, Xanthomonas campestris, which causes bacterial leaf spot, is only spread in liquid, if only aerosolized water. So in a sense it can be airborn, but this particular critter can't tolerate dry conditions. Fortunately for us it is among the wimps of bacterial diseases in that it has to have pretty specialized conditions to spread, but we still had to destroy bunches of our babies. Sad sad sad.

I found the article and I'll put it in the next one.
Toe

[Toe Knee]

Audience:
General gardening public, especially tapping into the increasing interest in heirlooms

Overall message:
· Growing heirlooms is exciting and fun, but many diseases can affect them.
· Here is what happened to one Kentucky grower.
· Here are some resources they used in print and online to try to learn about their problem.
· Here is how they used the cooperative extension service and the plant diagnostic lab to diagnose their problem.
· Here are some options UK staff helped them explore and how they used these to develop a plan to intervene and treat their outbreak, and their plan to prevent it in the future.
· Growing heirlooms is exciting and fun, but keep the excitement on the positive side through knowledge, use of the university extension system, and through good prevention.


We all know that diversity is a good thing. In gardening as in finances diversity can protect you from losses because what may cause the loss usually only affects one thing. But can too much diversity be too much of a good thing? Look at the growing trend of heirloom vegetable plants. Sounds right, doesn’t it. If we grow lots of different kinds of beans and tomatoes and peppers, we should be safe, right? As it turns out, this enthusiasm to have lots of varieties of tomatoes and lots of varieties of peppers, etc. can also create conditions where diseases and pests can be spread.

Many heirlooms were grown for years and years in the same place, and may have adapted to conditions in that area, and may have developed resistance to the diseases of that area. As seed saving and trading becomes more popular, these varieties are traveling to areas where they do not have the same adaptations.

There are many viruses, bacteria and fungi that can affect garden vegetables. As varieties are traded, and seeds saved, sometimes these plant pests can be passed along with them. Some viruses like tobacco mosaic virus can find its way from cigarette smokers hands to tomato plants they handle and into the plant where the virus lives inside, eventually working its way into the inside of the seed. Bacterial Canker can grow in many non-garden plant species, and can survive undetected in soil. If this soil makes its way into a seed flat somehow, it can affect the plants in that flat. Some diseases can be carried undetected in fruit.

Here is what happened to one Kentucky Grower. What started as a hobby grew into an operation selling many different tomato varieties each spring. These growers enjoyed trying new types and trading with friends and people they met at fairs. When a new variety looked promising, they would grow transplants of it and offer it for sale with the other varieties they sold every spring. They developed a growing clientele of people who looked forward to buying new varieties in the spring.

Although they did practice some sanitary measures in their greenhouse operation, eventually disease found its way in. They were diligent about keeping out any plants except what they raised themselves. They fermented seed when saving it. They avoided wetting the foliage of their plants as they watered. But these were not enough to prevent bacteria from infecting one flat, and before they knew it spreading throughout most of one of their greenhouses.

They had purchased several tomatoes from unusual varieties from a farmers market. Determined to add to their growing collection of tomato varieties, they fermented and saved the seed and grew it on in the greenhouse the next spring. Unbeknownst to them, nearly every seed of one variety was infected with a bacterial disease. Because this bacteria spread in liquid water, the close spacing of the seedlings allowed it to spread throughout the flat and adjacent flats during fertilizing, when the plants were thoroughly doused in order to get fertilizer absorption through the leaves. This particular flat was one of the last to be transplanted, so when the grower started transplanting seedlings into larger pots, and noticed dotted leaves, the bacteria had already been spread to varieties transplanted, and fertilized earlier.

The growers used the commercial vegetable growers guide to help narrow down the diseases that were possible and studied the treatment and prevention recommendations. As soon as possible, the county UK Cooperative Extension Agents were contacted, and were very helpful in sending specimens to the UK Plant Disease Diagnostic lab.

When the results came back the diagnosis was one of those that had been studied in the guide, the UK extension staff and the plant disease diagnostic lab staff helped the growers evaluate their options and formulate a plan. Because the growers had studied the recommendations in the commercial vegetable growers guide, and discussed several options with the agents, they were ready to implement the recommendations. The course they chose was to remove and destroy all tomato seedlings and sterilize the greenhouse and everything in it with a 10% bleach solution.

On the prevention side, UK Plant pathologist Kenny Seebold recommended whenever one gets untreated seed, three steps should be taken, first, ferment the tomato in a bowl for several days which kills many infectious organisms. Second, bleach treat the seeds, and third heat treat the seeds. The bleach will kill many other pathogens, and the heat treatment will kill diseases which can penetrate the seed coat where they are immune to fermentation or bleach treatment. These methods will cause a reduction in seed lot viability, so plan accordingly.

Also, good cultural and sanitation practices can reduce the chances of diseases in vegetable transplants. Some of these include never bringing in plants grown in other places into the germination chambers or greenhouse, watering from the bottom or with as little splashing as possible, frequently sterilizing tools and hoses and watering devices used in the greenhouse, and keeping unnecessary clutter out of the greenhouse to make it easier to keep the greenhouse clean .

Increasing interest in heirloom vegetables is exposing a problem with disease transmission. With so many people trading seeds and fruits, the potential for spreading disease is also increasing. With some simple adaptations, however, it is possible to enjoy the huge diversity of heirloom varieties without worrying about diseases. We just have to be smarter than the diseases.

[Earl]

Toe,
So how do we go about bleach and heat treating the seeds?