Indoor Winter Tomato Project

[artis]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

This TV'er correlated "rugged and leathery [lower leaves]" to low humidity. This could be exactly our problem. Might be time to amazon a humidifier.
"

Naysen,

Be careful with the humidifier, if the humidity is way too high, it may invite various fungal and bacterial diseases. 40-50% sounds like a great humidity range but I would not go much higher than that.

Regarding watering: I assume that you have punched plenty of holes at the bottom of your cups. In my experience, it is better to water with plenty of water and let 10-50% of it drain out from the bottom of the container, and then remove it. This is because containers often suffer from salt buildup if tap water is used. Tap water often has too much sodium and chloride, and unfortunately the pH is typically 8, way too high for tomatos. Towards the end of the growing season, one has to start adjusting the pH of tap water to avoid nutrient deficiencies.

Regarding the yellowing of the lower leaves: It can be caused by low nitrogen. Maybe it is time to start fertilizing with a dilute fertilizer? A complete hydroponic solution with all of microelements is the best option for sphagnum moss-perlite mixes, just make sure that you do not use full strength, everything in moderation.

[z_willus_d]

Artis,

I plan to aim for 50%, though I realize it may be hard to regulate in a large, uncontrolled room.

With the cold setting in, I'm next going to have to work on temperature. I thinking to switch my lighting schedule such that I use the LED light during the daytime when temps are higher in my house, then run the dark cycle at night when cooler. I expect that should might match a natural outdoor grow better than the cooler light-on, warmer light off sequence I'm giving the plants now. I'll aim for 75-85F during the day and try and keep the drop to no more than 10-15F below that during the night (dark cycle).

My cups have something like 4-6 1/3" circular holes in the bottom. I could try cutting through more, though I don't want to have a bunch of soil medium pushing through. When I pot up soon (maybe sometime this weekend) to 6" pots, I might try putting down a bottom layer of small pebbles or just Perlite if I can't find any. I hope that will aid and facilitate faster less obstructed drainage.

I hadn't thought to add additional any additional fertilizer so early on, additional from the pinch of tomato tone and kelp meal I added to the soil medium when transplanting to 3" cups. If/when I transplant up to 6" pots, I planned to follow Dice's advice and mix in some of my worm castings (also some lime), and then water with a mixture of molasses, Actinovate and Mycogrow, and epsom (all in small quantities).

On the topic of transplanting up to 6" pots, when? Some of the seedlings seem to be putting on their 3rd and 4th set of "true" leaves. I don't see roots cramping through the bottom cup holes yet, but I sense that these 4-5" tall seedlings are ready to pot over to 6". Any advice on that front, when to transplant over to 6". They've been in 3" for not much over a week, maybe two.

[lakelady]

You know, low humidity may be part of my problem Naysen. Before it was only the tomatoes that had the leaf problems, but this morning, my datura (tropical flowering plant) had just dropped 3 leaves, all of them a very pale green. They were doing great, and suddenly, boom. I haven't been running the humidifier all the time because the reservoir gets empty by the end of the day. I just picked it up at a big box store, but maybe I need a 2 gallon one. It's in the living room, which is fairly big and open. Hmmm...I probably should pickup a humidity meter or something to be sure. thanks

[rnewste]

If you really want to control the humidity, you need to get a good humidity / temperature monitor, like in the photo at the lower right.



Even with the heater running in the Winter, the room stayed in the 60% range throughout, which was good.

Personally, I do think you have other issues with the leaves turning yellow and falling off at the moment - - low humidity would be way down my list of causes. Too much water or an imbalance in soil pH or related fertilizer chemistry would be my guess.

Raybo

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by lakelady

You know, low humidity may be part of my problem Naysen. Before it was only the tomatoes that had the leaf problems, but this morning, my datura (tropical flowering plant) had just dropped 3 leaves, all of them a very pale green. They were doing great, and suddenly, boom. I haven't been running the humidifier all the time because the reservoir gets empty by the end of the day. I just picked it up at a big box store, but maybe I need a 2 gallon one. It's in the living room, which is fairly big and open. Hmmm...I probably should pickup a humidity meter or something to be sure. thanks

Sorry to hear about the leaf drop -- I know how it feels to wake to the attrition of multiple plant members. Earlier, I grabbed my humidity sensor (hygrometer) from the wine cellar it was monitoring and placed it next to my seedlings. I've observed close to 50% humidity through the day, but this might not be typical for the past couple months, as today was the start of rain. I did some research on humidifiers today, and I think I've decided on the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Optimus-U-3100...0543441&sr=8-5

I'm not going to purchase anything until I see some min readings coming back below 40%. I think 50-70% is ideal, so 60% might be the sweet spot.

I actually spent a lot more time trying to determine where to buy a humidity controller (aka humidistat) to switch on/off AC to the humidifier unit, which would allow me to dial in on a specific target. I'm surprised to have to report that these things are ultra expensive. Far too much so for what they are made. I don't know why, perhaps it's just too niche? The cheapest complete product I could find came in at about $60-:
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-1UHG3-H...0543782&sr=8-1

Then there were some generics that you could buy if you're up for connecting the wiring yourself for like $5-, which is probably closer to what the circuitry is really worth. In short, I'm going to hold off on this line of money sink.

Last thing to report for my garden, I tried Dice's concoction for watering the seedlings in their 3" cups today:
- 1/2 gallon of warm water
- 1/2 Tbs of Molasses
- 1/8 tsp Actinovate
- 1/8 tsp Myco-Grow
- 1/2 tsp Epsom Salts

Mix it all up, and serve the plants. I'm hoping this drench will help strengthen my root system, and I also hope to see some resistance to molding/fungus, as I've stopped adding Peroxide and Bonide copper fungicides to my water solution.

-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by rnewste

Personally, I do think you have other issues with the leaves turning yellow and falling off at the moment - - low humidity would be way down my list of causes. Too much water or an imbalance in soil pH or related fertilizer chemistry would be my guess.
Raybo

Too much water? Not possible. I've been under-watering for weeks now. Now that I have a meter, I check and check again and never get above the middle reading -- just moist.

Soil pH imbalance. I have a $300 pH meter, and checked this out. I'm not trying to brag about spending three hundred dollars on a pH meter, BTW; in fact, I'm embarrassed to have. Nope, this is just Sunshine #4 mixed with Perlite and a bit of tomato tone and kelp. My tap comes in a bit north of 7 on the pH meter, but that's basically expected.

I haven't really fertilized anything yet, save for the pinch of Tomato-Tone in the 3" cup transplants. I've held off on adding in my worm-castings, and that part hurts because I suffer so to harvest and produce them.

All that said, I think you're probably right about the humidity not being the source of my specific issue(s), given the ~50% readings I took throughout the day (rainy though it was).

Ray, how's your indoor project looking this year? I've been following your dwarf search. Narrowed in on the finalists yet? You an I should end up with a very similar setup, although I'll be limited to 6 plants whereas I think you were up to 10-12. I've probably made a big mistake choosing these New Dwarf varieties that are said to stretch 4-5'. That will be tomorrows problem, if I ever get these suckers off the ground. BTW, that idiotrod dwarf really seems interesting.
-naysen

[rnewste]

Naysen,

I've staggered the 10 tomato seedlings for the Winter InnTainer Project, starting some of them on Sept 15 through last week (actually, will be starting the last variety (Iditarod Red next Wednesday when I receive them from Tania), so the plan is to have ripe fruit starting in late January, through end of April. I am now cleaning the InnTainers from last Season and prepping them for the "official" planting and HPS illumination on December 1 in the bedroom.

My final list is comprised of:

Demidov
Extreme Bush
Iditarod Red
Mano
Mountain Princess
Rozovyi Flamingo
Russian Red
Sophies Choice
Stakeless
Victorian Dwarf

My hope (versus last year) is to contain plant growth to maturity in the height range from 2 to 3 feet.

I am also using the 6'th InnTainer to grow out a grouping of sweet Peppers to get a jump on transplanting them outdoors in April for an early start next Season. This year, I didn't begin to harvest Peppers until late August.

Raybo

[lakelady]

My plants are moist, and register that way on the moisture meter, but not "wet". I only give them a bit of water once a week when the tops are pretty dry and I'm afraid to let them dry out too much. I'll have to do another pH test tomorrow, but I seriously wonder if those gnats haven't caused so much havoc for me. I do have 3 baby tomatoes though on the Silvery Fir Tree, as weird as the foliage looks these days. Some days it looks perky and happy and others the leaves curl, but I'm old it does look worse for wear a lot under normal circumstances.

I was actually thinking of switching out the soils but wondering if some are too big to do so at 10-12" high? I never thought to check my water pH and I have my own well water. I do know my water is very high in iron and now it has just ocurred to me....hmmm...maybe I should switch to distilled water for a few weeks and see if that helps.

[OtterJon]

HA! Lakelady,

So I went to the local Hydro shop the other day (to pick up some Fox Farms big bloom) and talked extensively to a fellow there who knew all about the types of troubles I have been having and his take?....Nutrient lockout due to the Well water I use on my plants. He said that they can't uptake nutrients due to the hard water, salts and iron I have going on. His suggestion was to go get the Reverse Osmosis stuff from those Culligan dispensers at the grocery store (NOT Distilled) I brought my own containers and got it for 25 cents a gallon. I also just today, changed my soil completely on all plants, as I had been using that slow release fertilizer, since the start, and now am just using the Fox Farms stuff. He said you need to do a flush on the plants next time you water, running about a gallon through each pot to help get the salts out. Personally I thought it would be just easier to change the soil and start fresh, so that's what I did. Found it interesting that you are having some of the same probs and now I find out you use well water too..hehe I asked why then can I use it on my outdoor plants with no problems, and he said that the outdoor soil has a flow to it and that salts don't build up the same way as in containers, in soilless mixes. So we will see how they do!..

Jon

PS I DID feel better about the state of my toms today after my wife came up to me with the pretty little flowering plant (cant remember name right now) I just got for her on our anniversary a week ago, and held it out and said "Fix". Completely yellow and wilted, dry as a bone. I watered it with a solution of Big Bloom, trimmed off the dead spots and put it under the light, lo and behold a few hours later it perked up. YAY!

[rnewste]

Jon,

I am surprised the Hydro Shop is starting you off on Big Bloom, rather than Grow Big for your seedlings. To my understanding, Big Bloom (or Tiger Bloom) should be used when the plants commence flowering.



You may want to give them a call to confirm.

Raybo

[OtterJon]

Actually Ray I misstated. I get the Grow big and big bloom mixed up sometimes. The one they started me on, is the grow big with the big tomato on it. He also said that you can cut the amount they suggest on the bottle from 2-3 teaspoons per gallon to 1 as it works just fine at the lower level. I split the difference and added 2 to a gallon of the new water I am using.

[rnewste]

OK, now I can sleep tonight....

Raybo

[rnewste]

Naysen,

I just noticed in your earlier post that you measured: "My tap comes in a bit north of 7 on the pH meter, but that's basically expected."

Is that the measurement of the tap water only, or the Sunshine #4 Mix after you have watered? For tomatoes, I am told that a soil pH of 6.4 is optimal.

Raybo

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by rnewste

Naysen,

I've staggered the 10 tomato seedlings for the Winter InnTainer Project, starting some of them on Sept 15 through last week (actually, will be starting the last variety (Iditarod Red next Wednesday when I receive them from Tania), so the plan is to have ripe fruit starting in late January, through end of April. I am now cleaning the InnTainers from last Season and prepping them for the "official" planting and HPS illumination on December 1 in the bedroom.

Ray, your grow list is enticing. Especially of interest are the iditarod (not idiotrod I guess) and stakeless. The idea of producing 10+lbs of fruit in the volume of 1.5'x2'x2-3' is also enticing, and it will be impressive to see it work for you.

With respect to staggering the growth and therefore harvest time of the various plants, my main concerns would be:
(1) You don't want to have adjacent plants in significantly different phases of growth where the older might literally overshadow the younger beneath. I suppose you've mitigated this somewhat by picking such short-dwarfish varieties, and you can mitigate further by ensuring you place the plants ideally for size potential and start date. Not to mention, you have two racks, so if you were to purchase a second light, you could optimize there too.
(2) Depending on where your plants are at in their "growth cycle," vegetative vs. flowering vs. ???, you may wish to present a different light cycle. For instance, 18 hours ON/6 OFF during early growth and then a 12 ON/12 Off during flowing fruiting. So managing those needs for all plants could get tricky. Similarly, if you're going to provide any regimens of "feed" to the plant targeted at green growth (N) vs. flowering (P), etc.

Please post pics one you get this years run in place.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by rnewste

Naysen,
I just noticed in your earlier post that you measured: "My tap comes in a bit north of 7 on the pH meter, but that's basically expected."

Is that the measurement of the tap water only, or the Sunshine #4 Mix after you have watered? For tomatoes, I am told that a soil pH of 6.4 is optimal.
Raybo

Ray, the pH reading that I was referring was my tap pH (see attached). I'm fairly certain, the Sunshine #4 mix + Perlite is about neutral pH (7). I had considering adding soil sulfur to correct down to the optimal, but I swear someone (probably a couple someones and perhaps including you) suggested not adding things like that to the seedling mix. I imagine a soft, supple young seedling root rubbing up against that large pumpkin-seed sized soil sulfur pellet -- no way that could be all too healthy for it.

Anyway, the attached pics:
Pic1 shows the pH of fresh coffee grinds (low as expected)
Pics7-8 show the pH of not nearly fully composted stuff at the top of my worm bin (kind of high)
Pic2 shows the pH of the fully composted stuff at the bottom of my worm bin (close to neutral)
Pic3 shows the high pH of my worm "pee" (leachate) -- I throw this stuff out on the front lawn, as I believe it's rife with bacteria and other baddies.
Pic4 shows the pH of my tap, first inside faucet and second outside water hose. They're both a bit higher than just north of 7, now that I have it in front of me.
Pic5 shows one of the first readings I got on my blueberry pot. Note the very low pH (obviously I was over-liberal with my application of soil sulfur when planting), which led me to the ultra-stupid mistake of adding lime (probably not even the safe stuff) directly to the top inch of pot soil in an effort to correct the pH upwards to something in the neighborhood of 4.5-5. Never do this. My blueberry bush was dead, as in dried up and withered to the bone dead, within a week. So, my first lesson and "boon" for applying my fancy new pH meter was to kill two blueberry bushes and a patch of strawberries. Oh, well. I will not quick forget that blunder.