Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[b54red]

You might want to give Floralina a try as a rootstock. I had really good luck with it this year but I don't think it is very resistant to nematodes. It was also one of the better varieties as far as taking the grafts of the rootstock that were resistant to all three races of fusarium. So far I have seen no signs of fusarium or nematode damage to any of the grafts with Amelia or Multifort as rootstock; but they seem to have more problems with compatibility with some scion varieties. Although a lot of people like Maxifort I decided not to use it because I have all three types of fusarium in my garden.

Bill

[z_willus_d]

Bill, Floralina (based on your input) as well as Multifort are on the list for next season's grafting trials. I think what I'll need most in the RS is Verticillium resistance, and that's far harder to come by than is the F resistances.
Thanks for sharing.
-naysen

[beeman]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Bill, Floralina (based on your input) as well as Multifort are on the list for next season's grafting trials. I think what I'll need most in the RS is Verticillium resistance, and that's far harder to come by than is the F resistances.
Thanks for sharing.-naysen

How about Beaufort? Paramount seeds claim V resistance.https://www.paramountseeds.com/seed-...rt-tomato.aspx They do sell a smaller quantity for the home gardener.
I have got my seed already for next year.

[z_willus_d]

I tried a few Beaufort grafts this year, and I found them to be less certain Rootstock as far as germination goes. They also rejected more grafts. And finally, I don't believe I saw any significant improvement over Maxifort against my supposed V problems. I might give it another try next year.

The Beaufort rootstock are far less vigorous than the Maxifort. When my UCD contact was visiting, I had to pull out that tree-like stump of a Maxifort crown that I posted here:
http://www.tomatoville.com/attachmen...2&d=1376927955

... and I almost couldn't get it out. It really was like trying to pull up a 5 year old sapling from the ground, the roots were so developed and overgrown. Like nothing I've seen before in tomatoes.

Thanks for the suggestion.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

hi, N.,

it's good that things are moving forward there.
just a couple of questions:

have you by any chance asked your guy in what precise way they determine the race for V. ( if it gets confirmed )?
generally, the process isn't an easy one, can take quite some time actually ( up to 100- 110 days ). very simply defined, R2 is any pathogen strain with no resistance to it ( the classification marker we use around here ).
your mentioning that you had a V.R1 resistant rootstock with no significant results could be of importance for those people in the process.

as for the experiment, some questions again:

* could you by any chance provide photos of the soil you are going to plant to, as it is now, but also some photos when you do the tilling there? if you don't mind me bothering you i would very much like it to 'feel' the structure of the soil.

* could you determine the soil solution Ph? i take it your soil is ok with nutrient levels from what i've seen here. do you by any chance know Ph factor for the water you use?

* is any kind of elemental sulfur available to you ( ferts especially )? is Bordeux mixture available to you ( with reasonable prices )? i take it that some hardwood ashes wouldn't be a problem if needed, gypsum maybe?

many questions, i know.
it's that ( at this V. + F. point especially ) your garden got to be extremelly interesting to me so i would very much like it to be a part of your experimental procedure, maybe do some monitoring and provide some additional help if it's ok with you.
i guess i'm starting to take your war with the villains as my own too.
also, if you manage to do it at Autumn ( top disease pressure time- absolutely the largest pathogen soil concentration ), after a proven massive infection at planting spots, and all of it with susceptible hosting plants... well, it will be of enormous significance to me also. that's why i would like to add some small ''catches'' to the procedure, which would make it more of an integral approach than a simple chemical reaction to those trouble makers of yours.

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, I'm happy to have you on board for the journey. I'd like to plant out this Sunday for the fall experiments. I'll try to answer your questions and post pics of the soil (w/ pH measurements) at that time. Right now, I'm 100% solar install focused. I should be done Saturday, and it'll be back to the gardens.

BTW, what do you mean by "ferts especially" regarding the elemental sulfur. I can certainly get a hold of soil sulfur for lowering pH. I've never heard of Bordeux mixture... please elaborate. I've no fireplace for ashes, but maybe I could find them for sale somewhere? I'm sure gypsum could be found. I'll certainly request a detailed explanation of the process that they use to isolate the V races from my samples. Before now, I think they've plated for it (selective media), then inoculated certain tomato plants with it for growing out in the greenhouses. I'm not sure if that can result in a specific race for V. or if it's simply a V vs. F vs. ??? type result.
Thanks,
Naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Ivan, I'm happy to have you on board for the journey. I'd like to plant out this Sunday for the fall experiments. I'll try to answer your questions and post pics of the soil (w/ pH measurements) at that time. Right now, I'm 100% solar install focused. I should be done Saturday, and it'll be back to the gardens.

BTW, what do you mean by "ferts especially" regarding the elemental sulfur. I can certainly get a hold of soil sulfur for lowering pH. I've never heard of Bordeux mixture... please elaborate. I've no fireplace for ashes, but maybe I could find them for sale somewhere? I'm sure gypsum could be found. I'll certainly request a detailed explanation of the process that they use to isolate the V races from my samples. Before now, I think they've plated for it (selective media), then inoculated certain tomato plants with it for growing out in the greenhouses. I'm not sure if that can result in a specific race for V. or if it's simply a V vs. F vs. ??? type result.
Thanks,
Naysen

hi again.

ok, i have a problem here: i prefer that you don't simply ''do'' the experiment, it's of principal importance that you fully understand all the aspects of the procedure. each and every step, even the smallest, has it's own logic and significance, and i'd like you to be aware of it. on the other hand, i am not a plant pathologist, my work and education is related to something we call ''integral agriculture'', which in this case basically means that the procedure will not be a simple war with villains, but rather a fully integrated approach aiming to grow healthy, well producing, strong plants. in other words, it's a specific growing system, aiming to take full care of plants, not only to fight the diseases off. again, if you gvet to the point where you don't just ''copy/paste'' some actions but fully understand what you are doing and aiming for, my goal would be fulfilled.
so, my problem is that it's an enormous amount of information which i would like you to have ( or anyone else who could be interested in such stuff ), and i would have a problem in doing that in a short and precise way even in my own language, not to mention English.
therefore, i apologize if i ''barry'' you with such stuff, but it's of critical importance to for the whole thing as i see it.

as for your questions:
- i'll be explaining the significance of all the actions there in further posts, there we can clear the importance of ashes, sulfur, gypsum, etc.
- V. or F. will be cleared on the plates, inoculating plants with isolates suggests they are going for determination of strains/races already. as simply as i can ( oh! ):
V. races differentiation is a very complex, and possibly extremelly expensive issue. for example, my country is not a ''rich'' one, so when we want the V.dahliae differentiation done we do the following: inoculate some V.resistant hybrids with the isolate, wait for 100-110 days and check it- if the plant gets infected, we classify it R2. to my knowledge there are some ''hi- tech'' procedures to determine the race upon the pathogen's molecular structure, but those are still not fully developed and cost quiteeeee much.
i don't expect that V.albo-atrum is a possibility in your place and climate, but that should be cleared on the plates too.
anyway, as i wrote earlier: V.dahliae R2 pathogen is still a bit of enigma to the world. many researches were and are being done about it, but the science still hasn't come to the basic result- producing resistance to it.
on the other hand, from my ''small- country- limited funds'' perspective, added with some experience in this field ( the villain is actually a very very steep increasing problem both to us and neighbouring countries ), i could say that that there is a way to control it even at this point. the procedure is actually based on quite some field testings here ( introduced quite some time ago to fight of any xylem invading pathogens ), but it also co- relates with some new research results being done all around the world.

more precisely in the following posts

[Paradajz]

p.s.

btw, if you can confirm that you had plants on a rootstock with V.resistance there, that it was planted and grown properly ( graft places adequately above the soil level, no open stem wounds, etc. ), and that it got infected with a confirmed V., it wouldn't be enough to scientifically conclude anything, but would suit me to go forward with an assumption of R2 there.

[Paradajz]

uh, let us start.

what you are aiming for there?

a total war on the villains, not a simple chemical attack.
total war means supressing your enemy at each and every field available to you, not simply ''nuke the buggers with the copper/mancozeb bomb''.
this issue is heavily complicated by the fact of probable V. + F. presence there. differences in the nature of those pathogens mean that you need to be much more careful with your actions, and avoid any which could supress one of those but ''fuell'' the other one at the same time. that's actually why i chose to get as close to it as possible, it's going to be a very specific and quite an ambitious task for you there.

what would be a prefferable test result?

once again, and i stress this: it's an extremely favorable environment and timing for the diseases. heavy pathogen soil concentrations, expected weather changes, and above all the fact that there will definitely be a significant amount of infected plant residues in the soil, make the pathogens get a full starting advantage and a position far ahead of you, just perfect for a test of such kind.
therefore, a 45 days after transplant period with no infection would mean ''control''. in a normal growing period and situation, this alone would make you expect quite some yields and close to normal life cycle for those plants.
a 60- 75 days no- infection period would mean total control: with such a result you could expect an almost/completely fully regular growing season for a tomato plant.

[Paradajz]

not even started yet...

what are the fields available to us to supress those buggers?

1. soil
* Ph, it's cruccial. both of those do not like it above 6.5 and get full comfort at 5.5 - 6.5 range.
* structure, a tricky one. one of the pathogens is more comfortable with normally/or highly drained soil structures, the other one doesn't mind very much, even enjoyes low drainage soils. there is a way to ''by- pass'' this difference in natures, i'll explain when we get to it.
* chemical soil compounds ( organic or inorganic, synthetised or not ). a big one! you are going to use copper, manganese, zinc, sulfur and calcium as your basic weapons there. those have 2 basic effects: a direct ''killing'' effect, and enabling a higher quality plant growth environment ( with additional effects to disease supression trough the means of strong and healthy plants and managing the soil Ph level at the desired rate ). i'll also explain this later, but you shouldn't be afraid of any toxic effects if procedure done correctly, also some other troubles such as BER should be resolved by this, yields improved too.
* in a close co- relation with the previous one, fertilizing. a very very tricky one. controling the trickiest buggers of all- ammonium form of nitro ( oh, those villains like it, makes just a perfect environment for them, Ph related especially, and on the other hand you and your plants need it very very much ) , preventing phosphorus ( which is cruccial for overal plants health ( phosphorus- root growth- plants health and strenght ) and blooming and fruit setting ) from locking down the other elements which it often tends to do... many issues, impossible to fully explain here in a life time. aiming for adequate plant nutrition, but specifically for an adequate soil Ph management, and above all: introdution of a little known and not fully researched role of sulfur in fighting off xylem invading pathogens, pointed by some of the latest issue related researches world wide, to my knowledge UK especially and US to some extent. shall explain when we come to it.

got to go, to be continued.
i just hope you'll be able to digest at least some of this info by the time of soil preparement for planting, 'cause some of the cruccial steps need to be made there.

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, I'm soaking up all that you've posted here. I greatly appreciate that you convey more than the what but also the why and how for these concepts and procedures. I have a relatively high-end pH meter, which I will use soon to measure the pH of the raised bed garden area I intend to use for these experiments. It's definitely possible I could have some soil in that lower pH range around 6, since I was targeting ~6.5 having read it to be optimal for tomatoes. We'll see where it's at now after a season.

I've documented a great deal about the soil preparation and components used in my beds here:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=20912

The first page or two deals with what I used for my first set of raised beds a couple years back. The 3rd page goes into details of what I used in my latest raised bed, and I intend to use this latest bed for the experiments. Posts #74 and #78, for instance, break down the components I used in the soil and their respective ratios. The 4th page shows some finished pictures of the beds and finally a few pics at transplant day. If you have time, you can glean a lot about my soil and garden area situation from this post.

Since I plan to get started with transplanting for the experiment this Sunday (or possibly on Monday -- a holiday for us), I'd like to make sure I have all the necessary items. I have the copper/mancozeb components, but no gypsum, wood ash (btw, I've read that sul po mag) can be used in place of this), or other items.

I have a 3/4 full bag of $20/bag store-bought worm-castings/vermicompost (it says "worm-castings" on the bag) that's about 3 months old and has been sitting in my 110F degree garage for the summer. I checked with folks on the AACT yahoo forum, and they said the castings should be fine to store in the hot garage as long as they're kept out of direct sunlight. I still question whether the microorganisms can be healthy cooped up in a semi-breathable bag in such heat. I also have the remnants of my homemade vermi-compost, which I dumped in an outdoor compost chamber (and have been adding to for the summer months) after we started to suspect the bin might be the/a source of F./V. I'm not sure if, having gone through more of a thermophilic compost cycle, that compost can be treated as "safe" for use again. I'd like to use it if possible. I have a number of other ingredients, which I plan to use when making AACT [compost tea].

Thanks for the interest and involvement.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

hi, and sorry- i have been away for a couple of days.

ok, Sunday is tomorrow. i'd just like to make a couple of advices and proceed with explanations afterwards.

all you need to do for the first step is:
* prepare the copper/mancozeb mixture as described ( actually, leaving it for approx. 24h and stiring it up a couple of times is quite important: copper ions will get to the max. stage of activity that way, and the resulting chemical compound will have significantly higher effectiveness ).
* till the soil where you'll be planting approx. 15 inches deep, 20- 25 inches wide, if possible; drench the area for approx. 3 plants with approx. 10l of mixture, soak it good at the exact planting places especially; please note: no soil amendments at that particular step.
* wait 72- 96h for final soil amendments and planting; what are the temps like now, that's what decides how long to wait?

some additional info:
* no amendments at that moment because the mixture will do the following:
- form a very specific and very active chemical compound out of copper/manganese/zinc/sulfur
- directly eliminate exctremely large percent of any fungus presence which came into direct contact with it, bacteria also but to a bit lower percent
- significantly lower the soil Ph
- stabilize in some 24- 48h range and ''wait'' in the soil for a hopefully sufficient time period to restrict the spread of any surviving pathogens

this basicaly means:
- no wermicast prior to mixture drench because it would almost eradicate the beneficials worm produce for us
- no other ferts because we don't want to ''mess'' with the mixture's activity for a period of 24- 48h

next posts and i'll explain what needs to be done with the amendments at the planting so you could get it exactly as your plants prefer

[Paradajz]

...
ok, just to complete the part of our soil related field of possible actions against the pathogens, one left there:

* beneficials. it's beneficial activity already explained many times, also it's role in suppressing the pathogens ( narrowing it's life space and ''food'' competing, significant for V. especially, due to the difference in it's life process F. tollerates crowds a bit better, but still more comfortable without it ). it is my experience, but not a scientific fact, that beneficial bacteria delivered better results with soil born pathogens such as V. and F. than mycorrhizae. it would be a ''mission impossible'' to explain the full subject here ( btw, some of the beneficial life forms in humus we cannot qualify neither bacteria nor fungus ). very very over- simplified explanation i believe to be the reason: in it's work down there in the root area bacteria will not mess with the Ph as much as mycorrhizae will.

additional explanation for this one:
soil Ph is not a ''constanta'' ( constant level ), it should be noted as a process, in plant's root area especially. plants actually have a couple of ways to amend the Ph level to the way preffered for it's better nutrition. it's a constant process down there, basically aiming towards Ph decreasing, including mostly mycorrhiziae inhabiting plant's roots and excretions plants produce itself

[Paradajz]

and, in addition to the previous one, just a general explanation about the way those pathogens work:
there can be and there are quite some differences in the way they reproduce and survive in the soil, not only between V. and F. but even amongst different V. families.
but not to go that deep into the matter, the pathogen will be in the soil, even up to 18 inches deep, waiting for the initial ''trigger'' and covenient conditions to make the move.
initial trigger will be plant excretions ( a natural occurance in nutrient uptake process ) and Ph changes with it.
convenient conditions will be neutral to acidic soil, sufficient humidity levels ( more important for V. than F., but important for both anyway ), comfortable temperature range ( do not take it as a law- F. likes higher while V. prefers lower, in the last decade it was shown that V.dahliae especially, and R2 absolutelly, have higher temp preferences ), and absence of any suppressing factors of course.

this is a very simplified explanation, but it still provides you with answers where to go:
basicaly, you want a Ph soil solution range somewhere around 6.8 and, with all the specifics given, you'll aim for 6.8- 7.2 Ph there. it will not ''hurt'' your plants and nutrients uptake, on the contrary. on the other hand, you need to be aware that it does take some experience to ''play'' with this and not exaggerate to any side. but anyway, if acquired, this Ph level will significantly bother the buggers.
next thing that you want is to take care about the suppressing factors. copper, sulfur and beneficials will be at their prime here. i'll explain how and why in following posts.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, nice to read your posts. The temp here has been hot (almost 100F today). Here you can find the forecast for the next five days (low to mid 90's with slight chance of rain early next week):
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...st?query=95661

I just finished lifting 33 very heavy solar panels, and all seems well. So I'll be able to focus back on the plants this next week. I'll aim to get the mixture started tonight or tomorrow morning. You know the products that I'm using. Do you suggest I simply follow the label directions for a full concentration dose for 10l (per 3 plants) and then mix both together?

Another concern... if we're aiming for 6.8-7.2 pH in the experimental area, I may need to add some lime (or some other alkaline pH-raising substance) to try and up the pH to our target. I think this needs to be done before planting by at the least a week. What do you think? I'll try and take the pH measurements very soon.

BTW, did you read through my thread on the soil structure/make-up? Any questions about what I documented there?

Thanks,
Naysen