Tomato Seed Fermentation in Closed Jars.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

This is what the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Affairs says on their research of bacterial diseases of the tomato.

"Seed extraction alone, whether through fermentation or acid methods, is not a reliable method of eliminating bacteria on the seed. Extraction should be followed by a hot water, acid or chlorine disinfection. All seed lots should be disinfected by one of these methods."

This is exactly what Ted says to do, this guy knows what he is doing with tomato seed disinfection

Seaeagle, at this point from what you've posted you are absolutely convinced that I know nothing about fermention or other methods and indeed seed disinfection. So be it.

Your post above is about bacterial pathogens, not fungal pathogens, and it's the latter ones that are most important worldwide in terms of foliage diseases.

I'll start by saying that there is no method I know of that can remove ALL the possible pathogens on the seed coat, possibly TSP and or acid, but most home growers don't use those for very good reasons,but lessen that burden, yes, and that's important since actual infection is quantitative, so the less pathogens the less is the probablility of actual infection.

Bacterial Canker is the main one found in the endosperm of the seed and only hot water treatment can deal with that which is why in several catalogs you'll see listings for a single variety for both hot water treated seeds and non treated/ And Bacterial Canker is not that widespread either.

The main pathogens on the seed coat that are important to almost everyone are the two fungal ones important for foliage diseases and those are Early Blight and Septoria Leaf Spot. The two most important bacterial ones on the seed coat that can cause foliage infections are Bacterial Speck and Bacterial Spot.

Additional pathogens on the seed coat that are important for folks who garden in areas where such seedborne diseases are found, usually along the eastern seaboard from VA down to FL, along the Gulf of Mexico and then the most southern part of CA would be the three races of Fusarium as well as Verticillium. There are others as well.

Summary?

No method used mostly by home gardeners removes all pathogens known to be on the seed coat.

Those known to be in the seed endosperm are Bacterial Canker and all viruses and viroids tested to date and also Potato Spindle Viroid, which also infects tomatoes, originally from Australia and now making an appearance in the US.

Ted has agreed with me that there is no known documentation known that says bleach treatment can kill tomato pathogens on the seed coat and/or efficacy of same. Increase % germination sometimes , yes. If folks want to continue to use bleach treatments b/c it makes them feel better as several have said that's OK, but fact is, there is no data that says that it kills seed coat pathogens.

I do hope that at least some of what I've posted helps someone somewhere.

Carolyn

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Yes you can. I would recommend that you do so just before you plant them. It means you will be handling wet (or undried seeds), but this will help get the germination a headstart. You don't have to wait on the seeds to get damp or wet all the way thru.

Thanks Ted. Not just tomatoes and peppers, but I get like tropical seeds, which I know probably won't grow here, but I like the looks of flowers and just have to give it a try and I never know how old those seeds might be or what is coming maybe hidden in the inside of them unknowingly from those places.

I've always wondered about that, but didn't know if the bleach would kill the endosperm or not and some of them tropical seeds are rare or hard to get and expensive as all get out.

I practice isolation techniques, but always better to add a little extra protection.

[ContainerTed]

Seaeagle, let me say that the person who originally schooled me on saving seeds and awakening older seeds is none other than Carolyn. Curiously, she knows more about tomato seeds and the biology of them than anyone else I know. I very much agree with her posts.

As I see it, I don't think anyone disagrees that the pathogens can be there. It is about how to eliminate them - both types - fungal and bacterial. My process does not guarantee to elimate any of the bacterial bad guys. It only gives the home gardener a chance to send out seeds that will at least have a starting chance against the fungus based diseases.

Starlight, I hope you know that my process only applies to tomato and possibly a few other vegetable seeds. But I have no knowledge that would support using a bleach rinse on any other seeds. I'm just talking tomatoes. I wouldn't want you to damage or destroy any exotic or hard to find seeds.

[imp]

Not about fermenting seeds, but another use for used jar lids is in the garden- write the name/variety on it and tie it to your stake or nail it to a stake.

[seaeagle]

Container Ted said:"Seaeagle, let me say that the person who originally schooled me on saving seeds and awakening older seeds is none other than Carolyn. Curiously, she knows more about tomato seeds and the biology of them than anyone else I know. I very much agree with her posts."

I never referenced Carolyn in my post, I just remembered reading that when I was researching the Bacterial Pathogens and it basically is the same thing you are doing.Like you said one more step such as your bleaching treatment may help remove pathogens that fermentation might have missed.

Carolyn137 said "Ted has agreed with me that there is no known documentation known that says bleach treatment can kill tomato pathogens on the seed coat and/or efficacy of same. Increase % germination sometimes , yes. If folks want to continue to use bleach treatments b/c it makes them feel better as several have said that's OK, but fact is, there is no data that says that it kills seed coat pathogens.

That is not at all true.There are many research documents proving that bleach kills tomato pathogens and if done right will kill almost 100 percent on the seed coat of not only tomatoes but other seeds as well.Just because you and Ted agree on something doesn't make it true

Have a nice Sunday

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Container Ted said:"Seaeagle, let me say that the person who originally schooled me on saving seeds and awakening older seeds is none other than Carolyn. Curiously, she knows more about tomato seeds and the biology of them than anyone else I know. I very much agree with her posts."

I never referenced Carolyn in my post, I just remembered reading that when I was researching the Bacterial Pathogens and it basically is the same thing you are doing.Like you said one more step such as your bleaching treatment may help remove pathogens that fermentation might have missed.

Carolyn137 said "Ted has agreed with me that there is no known documentation known that says bleach treatment can kill tomato pathogens on the seed coat and/or efficacy of same. Increase % germination sometimes , yes. If folks want to continue to use bleach treatments b/c it makes them feel better as several have said that's OK, but fact is, there is no data that says that it kills seed coat pathogens.

That is not at all true.There are many research documents proving that bleach kills tomato pathogens and if done right will kill almost 100 percent on the seed coat of not only tomatoes but other seeds as well.Just because you and Ted agree on something doesn't make it true

Have a nice Sunday

No, you did not reference me in your post from the ministry of Ag in Canada ( I had to check that b'c I thought you lived in VA, which you do). But you have in several posts in this thread and in other threads as well, made reference to my attempted contributions to the issues being discussed.

I think it's time for me to say let's agree to disagree.

Carry on.

Carolyn

[imp]

Curious now, how is the bleach rinse used for 1) at the end of the fermentation, and 2) to help wake up old seed or increase germination ( and why does bleach rinse do this?)?

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

I don't have any real statistical data, but it makes me feel better when I do it. For me, it comes easily ever sinse I looked at a tomato seed under a microscope. All those "hairs" can hide debris (yes, I know it would be really small debris and, no, I've never seen any on a seed while looking thru the microscope) and that debris "could" have pathogens in it. So, I reasoned that to be on the safe side, and because the clorox bath helps with germination, I would do the clorox rinse. Sometimes I wait and do it just before planting.

Ted... I haven't looked at a tomato seed yet, but on some of my seed packets I bought they had been given the heat treatment and most usually have the added words "and defuzzed" added. Are they talking about the little hairs you see? Is that was defuzzed means?

[Greatgardens]

I read somewhere that if you let the fermentation process go more than 3 or 4 days, then you start to reduce the germination of the seeds. (?)

Any type of "additive" or "starter" that can be used to speed up the process? (Just curious.)

-GG

[ContainerTed]

A few times, I have saved the juice from a jar that I finished and used it to start a new jar. Sometimes, I use only a small amount to "seed" a newly started jar. It does, in my opinion, get the fungi going more quickly.

I know of no data that would support the conclusion that more than 3 or 4 days of fermentation reduces germination percentages. I've left seeds in the jar for 8 or 9 days and still had 100%. The process really doesn't need to be hurried. Lots of things affect the time the fermentation takes. Ambient temperature, maturity of the seeds, availability of spores in the air, amount of juice in with the seeds, ripeness of the tomato giving up the seeds, and the list goes on and on.

Relax, whoever wrote what you read doesn't know what they are talking about. You should watch the seeds in the jar to fall to the bottom and stay there. We have a few threads here at Tomatoville on this subject.