Semi-Determinates your experience ??

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

Bear, my season already extens until October, due to the sheltered location. After that, it is so dark that there is no way to grow a pot plant on a windowsill.. the leaves might survive, but without light, no hope for fruits.
I once succeeded in having a peppermint plant survive over winter.. it was a sorry sight in December! The first January sunrays perked it up.

Oh I guess you are in a much higher latitude than me !...???
I get it ...high latitude ....dark is dark in the winter ....
yes ...extended season as one can ...... I have lived in high latitudes with the aurora borealis.

I just try and extend and \ then
quit at the darkest /coldest ...most expensive time of the year to try to continue .

so for me seedlings can start feb. 15-21 anyway (with T-5 's grow lights )
a 2 month total shut down from dec. to feb.

just maybe you could put a single T-5 fluorescent grow light
above your window to enhance a few select plants on a seasonal (the darkest part of the year ) and then shut off during the recovery of the sun /light ....if you live in a high latitude

then the other part of the year has enhanced photoperiod .it's just getting through the part after the winter solstice .

I had a crazy idea of growing stick tomato and having a T-5 installed vertical (4ft) to stick ...could be very compact for floor space in the winter.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by BlackBear

I think there must have been a change in celebrity as how in the heck could it get the "all American award " thing and have hybrid vigour and all that disease resistance ...and come out at the end of the pack ...slower ...less productive ...etc.

I agree hybrids are not the answer .....but I have some hybrids to "be a safety belt"

in case if environmental calamity befalls the year (climate or pathogen etc.)

My usual standard are a few Big beef/Sungold /Juliet ...


if I do not see some advantage ....with the famous disease factor and the fruit production being later ....I am done with celebrity...I have so many others heirloom and hybrids that
are doing better in cool or heat . I kind of hope it does better ...but this can be a hybrid problem ....when is a celebrity ...not a celebrity ? How do you tell you have celebrity "old" (original ) from "celebrity new " ?

I quit Celebrity years ago because it did horrible for me too. However, this year a tornado/hail storm/flood wiped out many of my seedlings. Dutch was nice enough to send replacements. He sent a lot of celebrity. You never look a gift horse in the mouth. So celebrity gets another chance this year. But it better do better than Rutgers in production. Muahahaha

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I quit Celebrity years ago because it did horrible for me too. However, this year a tornado/hail storm/flood wiped out many of my seedlings. Dutch was nice enough to send replacements. He sent a lot of celebrity. You never look a gift horse in the mouth. So celebrity gets another chance this year. But it better do better than Rutgers in production. Muahahaha

I am just hoping ...I still find value in the disease factor and semi indeterminate qualities

if the Celebrity plant and fruit are blemish free that is nice ........but if there is not an abundance of fruit and they taste so..so ....... and set much later than others including Big beef (also with the great disease factor) etc .

I am having trouble seeing a continued place in the garden as there are so many other varieties to try .

[BlackBear]

bah ....I checked another " site" cluster ...Site C of the garden

it had a few Hybrids and heirlooms OP , all hybrids had heavy fruit set ...

EXCEPT CELEBRITY !...... I am so close to rolling up the red carpet for this Celebrity ......I just don't get it ! I always thought it was our cool climate
and lack of heat but I guess not ....

[BlackBear]

Hey all ,

super Sioux ...is listed as semi determinate at Tomatofest site

This is good as I am looking for the heat resistance as well

I guess there are 2 reasons to try Super Sioux .

[Cole_Robbie]

I am coming to be of the opinion that a seed company's use of the words determinate/semi/indeterminate have very little to do with the way the variety actually grows. A few determinates bear all their fruit and quit, but most of them do not. For a lot of varieties, I cannot tell it's supposed to be determinate. The plant gets huge, and I pick off of it all summer.

[travis]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

I am coming to be of the opinion that a seed company's use of the words determinate/semi/indeterminate have very little to do with the way the variety actually grows. A few determinates bear all their fruit and quit, but most of them do not. For a lot of varieties, I cannot tell it's supposed to be determinate. The plant gets huge, and I pick off of it all summer.

A determinate will always have terminating meristems where the apical shoot terminates with a blossom cluster rather than a continuation of the stem segment. This pattern recurs on every meristem and side shoot regardless of the plant's extended growth life.

If you go back to page one of this thread, and click on the link provided by MAF in Post #5, the paper explains both determinate growth pattern and semi-determinate growth pattern.

You can always identify determinate tomato varieties by close observation of flower cluster (efflorescence) spacing and the termination of all stems eventually with an efflorescence. (The paper refers to an efflorescence as an "inflorecence.")

[Redbaron]

Exactly Travis! Which is why with determinate, if you want to extend the season, never prune suckers.

A semi determinate will have a growth pattern similar to a determinate, but without the terminal efflorescence.

[travis]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Exactly Travis! Which is why with determinate, if you want to extend the season, never prune suckers.

A semi determinate will have a growth pattern similar to a determinate, but without the terminal efflorescence.

I think the semi-determinate also will terminate shoots with an efflorescence:
"This gene, denoted as sdt, modifies the expression of the sp/sp genotype by increasing the number of leaves between inflorescences and the number of inflorescences before termination of main stem growth." (See final paragraph in paper prior to credits.)

I think the main observable differences between determinate and semi-determinate is the greater number of internodes between efflorescences and the longer lifespan.

[NarnianGarden]

This year, I noticed several indeterminates showing determinate growth patterns: Azoychka and Khourma both had their growing tip / main stem and the flower truss disappear into a leaf node
They probably thought the weather too cold so they reverted to a determinate modus... although I had thought Russian varieties to be more cold tolerant

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by travis

I think the semi-determinate also will terminate shoots with an efflorescence:
"This gene, denoted as sdt, modifies the expression of the sp/sp genotype by increasing the number of leaves between inflorescences and the number of inflorescences before termination of main stem growth." (See final paragraph in paper prior to credits.)

I think the main observable differences between determinate and semi-determinate is the greater number of internodes between efflorescences and the longer lifespan.

What you are describing there sounds like semi-indeterminate.

It has been my understanding for years that:
1)semi-indeterminate has a growth pattern similar to indeterminate but with terminal efflorescences. (results in lots of foliage and lower yields)

2)semi-determinate has a growth pattern similar to determinate but without terminal efflorescences. (results in less foliage and higher yields)

Over the years I have grown both.


I suppose it is possible I got that backwards, but I don't think so. Don't have time to go back and check my research right now though. I do know that seed companies often lump both together and incorrectly call both "semi-determinate".

[Cole_Robbie]

It's all academic, though. If the plant gets big and I pick off of it all season, from my perspective, designating it as "determinate" is meaningless.

I've grown three varieties so far that don't get big, set all their fruit at once, and then are done for the year. The plant lives on but does not produce any more fruit. They are Northern Delight F1, a saladette from Territorial Seed, Cole - another saladette, and Terrenzo F1, a compact cherry. Those three varieties seem like true determinates to me.

But calling a variety like Celebrity determinate just doesn't make sense to me, when I can grow it next to Big Beef and the plants look exactly alike. It may be determinate as far as textbooks go, but the experience of growing it makes it indistinguishable from an indeterminate.

I realize all of this is my own odd opinion; I don't mean to question the academic knowledge that disagrees with me. I just wish I could rely more on seed companies' descriptions of varieties.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

What you are describing there sounds like semi-indeterminate.

It has been my understanding for years that:
1)semi-indeterminate has a growth pattern similar to indeterminate but with terminal efflorescences. (results in lots of foliage and lower yields)

2)semi-determinate has a growth pattern similar to determinate but without terminal efflorescences. (results in less foliage and higher yields)

Over the years I have grown both.


I suppose it is possible I got that backwards, but I don't think so. Don't have time to go back and check my research right now though. I do know that seed companies often lump both together and incorrectly call both "semi-determinate".

oh I think this is my confusion also ......

in that there was a determinate .....and the indeterminate .

But the "other " or middle between I could use semi determinate and semi Indeterminate

terms in an interchangeable fashion perhaps I should be more aware and precise ?



But I agree this is academic to a grower if you find a variety that can consistently get the extended production season ...it doesn't really matter who defines it in what category .

We have to see what is actually happening on the growers ground .....and respect that observation.

As it often does not quite match the seed suppliers description /categorization.


As for me the 'indeterminate " Big beef is untouchable as a "utility hybrid"

and Celebrity as a "Semi-determinate " hybrid well methinks this is the last year.

It is the on the ground experience and observation that one has to use for the best results.

[travis]

What you observe in British Columbia with regard to Celebrity's poor performance certainly has not been the case in other regions of the North American continent, as Celebrity has been for years and remains one of the favored fresh market varieties in the middle latitudes east of the Great Plains.

As far as the seed companies, yes it is unfortunate that many of them have no regard for correct designation of tomato varieties as to growth patterns. And it continues to fall to the individual grower to determine what is a determinate, indeterminate, and semi-determinate by observation.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by travis

What you observe in British Columbia with regard to Celebrity's poor performance certainly has not been the case in other regions of the North American continent, as Celebrity has been for years and remains one of the favored fresh market varieties in the middle latitudes east of the Great Plains.

As far as the seed companies, yes it is unfortunate that many of them have no regard for correct designation of tomato varieties as to growth patterns. And it continues to fall to the individual grower to determine what is a determinate, indeterminate, and semi-determinate by observation.

I am kind of sad about not being able to take advantage here for some reason ..

of the superior Celebrity performance and disease resistance etc. .....maybe I will just have to call it a "late' here ...but every other variety in this hot year is going great with big fruit set ..but not celebrity in 2 varied locations .

Some people I knew in Manitoba had a whole side business just from Celebrity ...Monocrop.
Seems reasonable . But there is no way I would try that here !