Moravsky div not determinate? - Page 4

maf · July 20, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortyonenorth

My Moravsky Div is fairly consistent: leaf, leaf, leaf, flower cluster.

........and clearly indeterminate. It would be interesting and enlightening if all those growing Moravskiy Div this year could do the count and see if there is a consensus. The two feet high plant mentioned by one poster sounds like a determinate, but who knows until the count is in?

Travis has made a very good explanation of how to differentiate the two, and once you know what you are looking for it is very easy to spot the difference.

July 20, 2011

Pictures from today: Moravsky Div:

**carolyn137** · July 20, 2011

Travis, laugh if you will but I tried to find those internode distances online but couldn't find them.

A couple of points here.

I think some of you will remember the situation with the variety Green Grape which as originally bred by TOm Wagner was indeterminate. When he was in the Netherlands and looking at some Green Grape plants in a greenhouse he saw that they were determinate. And then my own indet GG, picture in my book which was indet, morphed into a det and the same thing happened for many folks.

I was in Pasadena one summer and Tom drove down from Bakersfiwld where he was then living, and brought me two plants of what he said were indet. But they turned out not to be indet for me.

There was really no way to track seed sources at that time. And since many were also getting det and not indet GG I've always wondered if one got to a particulr F generation along the years, and possibly with repeated seed production by many if that change was possibly mutational, but Tom had little to say about that.

Off hand I don't know the genes that determine det vs indet, Travis, perhaps you do b'c I'm too darn hot and tired to go to the Rick Center and check on them, but I bet there's more than one gene for either plant habit.

So, what might have happened to MD , if indeed something has happened b'c I'm not yet sure, as to a possible gene mutation that could have occurred along the way.

If all who got seeds from me via my seed offer count internodes and find it's a det and all who count internodes with seeds from Gleckers count internodes and all those who got it from Sandhill do the same, or some other seed source, what will show up?

So is it Green Grape redux for seeds from a particular source or more widespread than that?

As I said above I don't care what the plant habit is and quite frankly I've been wondering about some of the photos that have been shown, b'c MD is NOT a large cherry type and round. As those who listed it in the SSE YEarbook said , one was Andrey who said det and irregulat globe, I said det and kinda squarish, which goes along with Andrey's irregular globe, and the other three folks who got seeds from me all said det and used my word of squarish to describe it.

As bcday noted earlier, one person listed it separately as indet and said seed from Andrey, and I responded to bcday's comment about the person listing it that way/

I've grown Stupice, Stupike, Matina, Bloody Butcher and Kimberly, all plsmall red fruited varieties and tase=wise, at least for me, MD was far superior to all of them.

Terry, I know you just posted some pictures but I don't want to lose this post so will post it and then look at your pictures.

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

For what it's worth, this is from the book 'Propogation of Horticultural Plants - Volume 6' pp. 85-86 by By S. Rajan, Baby Lissy Markose......

cleo88 · July 20, 2011

Now I have really learned something here.

I went out to my MD plant and sure enough, there are about 3 leaf nodes between trusses. I also looked at my Heidi and Danko, and I could see there was a truss after about every other leaf node. So now I am sure that MY MORAVSKY DIV IS INDETERMINATE. Or at least what I think of as MD.

I also discovered that yes, I did get my MD seeds from fortyonenorth - couldn't find it in my PMs for a while because we did a six-for-six trade so MD was not in the title. So count me a Glecker source.

So not sure what I have, but I know it's indeterminate. And super early.

Note: on the Gleckler's site, is says MD is determinate! This is all very confusing.
http://www.glecklerseedmen.com/Morav...87_497720.aspx

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

For what it's worth, I did some digging....

From the Moravoseed website 5 years ago.....

A Stupické intended for field culture and a Stupické intended for greenhouse culture....

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

An interesting observation that I made while researching the Moravoseed site over the past 10 years is that they've never had very many determinate cultivars, it appears that their emphasis has been on indeterminates.

Just sayin'.....

???

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

I did some searching on google.cz, Google's Czech search engine.

I can't find Moravské Div (Wonder of Moravia) associated with a tomato or any of the Czech words for tomato (rajský, tomatový, rajské jablko or rajče) in any way.

What am I doing wrong?

Sorry for being so OCD!

**carolyn137** · July 20, 2011

I have no idea what you're doing wrong but I can tell you that I've received quite a few varieties from Andrey that were from Moravoseed.

When I went to their webiste not too long ago I also think I remember seeing that they bred their own varieties as well, whoch also makes sense to me.

THe Stupike one I was sent seeds for was the rani one which I remembered ASAP after I saw what you posted. There were two for outdoor growing and two for glasshouse growing, that I remember/

The info you gave for the internode distances is almost identical for those that Travis gave. Not that it's bad, but what you cut and pasted is way out of date on nomenclature. Do you knbow when it was written? Above I said I was looking for internode distances but along the way I saw many many definitions for det vs indet, some from University sites and some form what I'll call homegrowers sites/

Terry, were your MD plants in the bottom picture? I couldn't tell much from the upper picture except the fruits shown were not round; were thjose MD fruits? What was the source of your MD seeds?

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

The info you gave for the internode distances is almost identical for those that Travis gave. Not that it's bad, but what you cut and pasted is way out of date on nomenclature. Do you knbow when it was written?

2007

http://books.google.com/books?id=19z...page&q&f=false

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Above I said I was looking for internode distances but along the way I saw many many definitions for det vs indet, some from University sites and some form what I'll call homegrowers sites.

Not unlike the dwarf definition deal.

I also did some searching (both current and historical) of Czech seed company sites. As well as more searching of Moravoseed.com in archive.org.
No Moravské Div that I can find.

By the way, I have no problem finding Moravoseed cultivars, just not one named Moravské Div.

I'm clueless!

**carolyn137** · July 20, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiggingDogFarm

2007

http://books.google.com/books?id=19z...page&q&f=false

Not unlike the dwarf definition deal.

I also did some searching (both current and historical) of Czech seed company sites. As well as more searching of Moravoseed.com in archive.org.
No Moravské Div that I can find.

By the way, I have no problem finding Moravoseed cultivars, just not one named Moravské Div.

I'm clueless!

Join the crowd in the clueless house.

That Google link you gave showed that the book was written in 2007 and the International Nomenclature Comm, or whatever they call themselves voted out Lycopersicon ( cum) and voted in Solanum as the genus name way before 2007.

So what do you want me to do? I can e-mail him and ask him when he got MD from that place, wait, didn't someone in a post above already say that Moravoseed wasn't currently listing it. Yes it was, was it Tania? I can't remember but someone less hot and bothered than I am right now can go back and take a look.

Andrey is one of THE most meticulous record keepers I know of and Tania is right up there with him.

My two cat kids are on the carpet trying to get a feeble breeze from the fan and soon I'll be in the same position, except in the bed, not on the floor.

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

Here's a nerdier determinate/indeterminate run down.......

From The Tomato Crop: A Scientific Basis For Improvement by J. G. Atherton and J. Rudich

DiggingDogFarm · July 20, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Join the crowd in the clueless house.

That Google link you gave showed that the book was written in 2007 and the International Nomenclature Comm, or whatever they call themselves voted out Lycopersicon ( cum) and voted in Solanum as the genus name way before 2007.

So what do you want me to do? I can e-mail him and ask him when he got MD from that place, wait, didn't someone in a post above already say that Moravoseed wasn't currently listing it. Yes it was, was it Tania? I can't remember but someone less hot and bothered than I am right now can go back and take a look.

Andrey is one of THE most meticulous record keepers I know of and Tania is right up there with him.

My two cat kids are on the carpet trying to get a feeble breeze from the fan and soon I'll be in the same position, except in the bed, not on the floor.

I'm not questioning anyone or insinuating anything, I'm just relaying what I can and can not find. I was hoping to find a good current or historical description of it in Czech, but instead I can't find a trace. None! Nope! Nada!

I don't know what that means and i'm not going to make any assumptions.

It sure seems like there'd be at least some historical record of it in some form.
Many agree that it's a good tomato, I can't understand why it appears that it's been so swiftly and completely forgotten in the Czech Republic!!!

Beats me!!!!

DiggingDogFarm · July 21, 2011

Well, I fired off an email to Moravoseed asking for any information on a cultivar named Moravské Div or similar.

I grew up with Czech neighbors (they were tomato lovers), too bad they're gone.

I wish I could ask them to give Moravoseeds a ring!!!!

dice · July 21, 2011

The name Moravsky Div (or Moravské Div) could be the invention
of a seed-selling firm in one of the CIS states or now independent
former Soviet states (like an Estonian seed seller) rather than
of Moravoseed themselves: a retail renaming of something that
they bought in bulk from a seed producer that described it as
"originally from Moravoseed".

(That could be how Andrey got both the name and the "determinate"
description for it.)

Think of an Eastern Bloc Amishland, for example: "anything can be
renamed as we see fit."

It is a pretty good tomato, very early, anyway. For me, "Moravsky Div"
simply names "this set of tomato genes". I did not see terminal
inflorescences last year, but it got a late start, I was not looking for
them, and according to Atherton and Rudich, even indeterminates
have those, it is just that a side-shoot growing from a petiole below
the terminal flower cluster grows up past it, seeming to continue
the main stem or side-branch.

It was definitely more like a sprawling vine than a bush tomato, though.

July 20, 2011	#47
WillysWoodPile Guest Posts: n/a	Pictures from today: Moravsky Div: Last edited by WillysWoodPile; July 20, 2011 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Add third picture.

July 20, 2011	#48
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Travis, laugh if you will but I tried to find those internode distances online but couldn't find them. A couple of points here. I think some of you will remember the situation with the variety Green Grape which as originally bred by TOm Wagner was indeterminate. When he was in the Netherlands and looking at some Green Grape plants in a greenhouse he saw that they were determinate. And then my own indet GG, picture in my book which was indet, morphed into a det and the same thing happened for many folks. I was in Pasadena one summer and Tom drove down from Bakersfiwld where he was then living, and brought me two plants of what he said were indet. But they turned out not to be indet for me. There was really no way to track seed sources at that time. And since many were also getting det and not indet GG I've always wondered if one got to a particulr F generation along the years, and possibly with repeated seed production by many if that change was possibly mutational, but Tom had little to say about that. Off hand I don't know the genes that determine det vs indet, Travis, perhaps you do b'c I'm too darn hot and tired to go to the Rick Center and check on them, but I bet there's more than one gene for either plant habit. So, what might have happened to MD , if indeed something has happened b'c I'm not yet sure, as to a possible gene mutation that could have occurred along the way. If all who got seeds from me via my seed offer count internodes and find it's a det and all who count internodes with seeds from Gleckers count internodes and all those who got it from Sandhill do the same, or some other seed source, what will show up? So is it Green Grape redux for seeds from a particular source or more widespread than that? As I said above I don't care what the plant habit is and quite frankly I've been wondering about some of the photos that have been shown, b'c MD is NOT a large cherry type and round. As those who listed it in the SSE YEarbook said , one was Andrey who said det and irregulat globe, I said det and kinda squarish, which goes along with Andrey's irregular globe, and the other three folks who got seeds from me all said det and used my word of squarish to describe it. As bcday noted earlier, one person listed it separately as indet and said seed from Andrey, and I responded to bcday's comment about the person listing it that way/ I've grown Stupice, Stupike, Matina, Bloody Butcher and Kimberly, all plsmall red fruited varieties and tase=wise, at least for me, MD was far superior to all of them. Terry, I know you just posted some pictures but I don't want to lose this post so will post it and then look at your pictures. __________________ Carolyn

July 20, 2011	#49
DiggingDogFarm Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New York State Posts: 286	For what it's worth, this is from the book 'Propogation of Horticultural Plants - Volume 6' pp. 85-86 by By S. Rajan, Baby Lissy Markose...... __________________ "The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"

July 20, 2011	#50
cleo88 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Sharon, MA Zone 6 Posts: 225	Now I have really learned something here. I went out to my MD plant and sure enough, there are about 3 leaf nodes between trusses. I also looked at my Heidi and Danko, and I could see there was a truss after about every other leaf node. So now I am sure that MY MORAVSKY DIV IS INDETERMINATE. Or at least what I think of as MD. I also discovered that yes, I did get my MD seeds from fortyonenorth - couldn't find it in my PMs for a while because we did a six-for-six trade so MD was not in the title. So count me a Glecker source. So not sure what I have, but I know it's indeterminate. And super early. Note: on the Gleckler's site, is says MD is determinate! This is all very confusing. http://www.glecklerseedmen.com/Morav...87_497720.aspx Last edited by cleo88; July 20, 2011 at 07:22 PM. Reason: comment about Glecker's

July 20, 2011	#51
DiggingDogFarm Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New York State Posts: 286	For what it's worth, I did some digging.... From the Moravoseed website 5 years ago..... A Stupické intended for field culture and a Stupické intended for greenhouse culture.... __________________ "The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"

July 21, 2011	#59
DiggingDogFarm Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New York State Posts: 286	Well, I fired off an email to Moravoseed asking for any information on a cultivar named Moravské Div or similar. I grew up with Czech neighbors (they were tomato lovers), too bad they're gone. I wish I could ask them to give Moravoseeds a ring!!!! __________________ "The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"

July 21, 2011	#60
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	The name Moravsky Div (or Moravské Div) could be the invention of a seed-selling firm in one of the CIS states or now independent former Soviet states (like an Estonian seed seller) rather than of Moravoseed themselves: a retail renaming of something that they bought in bulk from a seed producer that described it as "originally from Moravoseed". (That could be how Andrey got both the name and the "determinate" description for it.) Think of an Eastern Bloc Amishland, for example: "anything can be renamed as we see fit." It is a pretty good tomato, very early, anyway. For me, "Moravsky Div" simply names "this set of tomato genes". I did not see terminal inflorescences last year, but it got a late start, I was not looking for them, and according to Atherton and Rudich, even indeterminates have those, it is just that a side-shoot growing from a petiole below the terminal flower cluster grows up past it, seeming to continue the main stem or side-branch. It was definitely more like a sprawling vine than a bush tomato, though. __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; July 22, 2011 at 09:22 AM. Reason: clarity