July 23, 2011
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#76 |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,984
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It's always nice to see Andrey posting. And his contribution of Eastern European tomatoes is awesome.
However, I have to disagree with "it's alright" to randomly assign specific growth habit designations to tomato varieties simply based on vine height in various garden conditions, climates, and support systems. It would be more useful and less confusing to identify varieties as what they are for a number of obvious reasons. And one might even consider using "compact indeterminate" if that's what it is. Just one example: Moravsky Div was identified as determinate at the beginning of this discussion, well actually it was said to now be indeterminate, oh wait, I mean it's now semi-determinate, or is it semi-indeterminate? Oh shucks, I'm totally confused. But I am glad I wasn't growing a half dozen plants this year with the intent of using them to create a determinate saladette. |
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July 23, 2011
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#77 | |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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Quote:
There's more to growth habit than just height! LOL 
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"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
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July 23, 2011
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#78 | |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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Quote:
The question now becomes, for those who are interested, what Moravoseed cultivar was renamed? 
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"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
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July 23, 2011
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#79 | |
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Quote:
(We've gotten rather technical here in this thread as to internode distances to determine if a variety is det or indet, and there's nothing at all wrong with that, obviously, b'c it's correct. But I do think that most folks don't even know about that, call a variety det/indet/semi-det based on the appearance of the plant as to height or length of the vines if a person is just sprawling plants, and I don't see anything really wrong with that either as practical working knowledge.) Travis, please read again what I wrote above. I said I agreed with using internode distances to determine if a variety is det/indet, but I went on to say that I think that most folks have no idea about using internode distances to determine plant habit. Thus using height or vine length was OK as PRACTICAL WORKING KNOWLEDGE. What we're considering here really only applies to the way that a variety is described by the FIRST person or company or seed site who introduces it to others, in one way orf another. And if that person doesn't know about internode distances, etc., they're going to base their descriptions on what they see otherwise. heaven knows all the varieties I first introduced by listing them in the SSE YEarbook, starting in the early 90's, hundreds of them, and I didn't have a clue back then about internode distances, so I called them as I saw them. With respect to Moravsky Div, that was grown here at home after I was confined to this walker and couldn't get out near those gro-bags to make any real decisions. I had to rely on Freda's observations and what she brought in to me which were leaves, when she wasn't sure about leaf form, and of course I could observe the fruits and taste them when she brought them in. So while I agree with your, what I might call purist approach, with which I agree , there are reasons to suggest that that doesn't always work well for many folks, whether they be home gardeners, home gardeners breeding tomatoes, folks who own seed sites, and on and on. So I do hope that you can see that situations aren't always black and white, indeterminate vs determinate, b'c not everyone, and I named some in the paragraph above, knows how to assign plant type to a variety. And I'm perfectly willing to admit that I didn't even know about using internode distances until I was well along in my so called tomato career. I grew most of my several thousands of varieties by sprawling so I didn't have a clue about height, and yet it wasn't too hard, at least for me, so see the difference in rampant long vine varieties, vs bushy compact ones. Since I'm still on earth, for now, I'm not perfect in all ways, and that includes tomatoes.  On the upside I know that anything you develop from your own breeding projects will be clearly and properly IDed as to plant habit and that's good, but you haven't sent me anything new lately and so here's the hint. A doe with two still spotted fawns in the back yard right now, mom eating some roses, fawns cavorting around kicking up their spindly legs which I always think look so fragile. I am so pleased that I can see so many deer here alive, and not hanging from the rafters of one of the barns at the old farm where I was raised, deer shot by my father and his buddies in the Rod and Gun Club.
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Carolyn |
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July 23, 2011
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#80 | |
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Quote:
Andrey posted: (Unfortunately I've no direct connection to Moravoseed. I've just buy their seeds here in Belarus from our seed companies who used to pack MS seeds in local seed packs.) Nothing was said about the Belarus companies renaming the Moravoseed varieties.
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Carolyn |
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July 23, 2011
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#81 | |
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Tomatovillian™ Honoree
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NE Co
Posts: 303
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Quote:
Determinate or indeterminate should be black or white with the node length From the built in genetics. Any thing about height that is dependent on outside influence and conditions should not be considered if 1 foot high or 7 feet high. There are planty of ways to describe growth habits --fast, slow--tall, short, bushy or tree like etc. It seems to me that this is like calling a 4 door sedan a "coupe" just because it is short and stubby. No way. |
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July 23, 2011
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#82 | |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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Quote:
But there's absolutely no record of Moravoseed having a cultivar named Moravské Div. Not on their website going back ten years, not anywhere! Until I can find information that shows that Moravoseed did have a cultivar(s) named Moravské Div, I'm going to assume that Russian/Belarusian seed companies may have done some renaming. (see below) If anyone can directly link the name Moravské Div to Moravoseed, please let us know!!!! Now, what I have found.....and to further confuse things..... I'm not the best at translating Russian, but it appears to me that there is more than one cultivar named (identified as) Moravskoe-Chudo AKA Moravian Wonder (Miracle) AKA Moravské Div AKA Moravsky Div Here are some Russian Moravian Wonder (Miracle) seed packets. Not every description describes growth habit, those that do are all indeterminate......     
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"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
Last edited by DiggingDogFarm; July 23, 2011 at 12:35 PM. |
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July 23, 2011
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#83 |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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Okay...I've done some more digging....
Interestingly, I found Russian sites using Moravoseed's picture (or croppings of the full pic) of Stupické for Moravskoe-Chudo AKA Moravsky Div. Picture and description from the Moravoseed website....  And the Russian websites......  http://seedco.ru/sorta_dlya_otkrytogo_grunta http://kiev.prom.ua/p1093371-moravskoe-chudo.html http://devsej.narod.ru/tomaty/Tomat_Sort.html http://www.hozvo.ru/shop/index.php?productID=131 ???
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"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
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July 23, 2011
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#84 |
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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I don't know you well but with time I've learned that you love to dig as your user name indicates, and not just for bones as the dog in your avatar indicates.
When I was sent 12 packs of seed from Russia, now the CIS, I asked Andrey and Tania and Alex for help translating the names and the specs and they were wonderfully helpful. I've kept that thread b'c the way I had to explain the Russian letters got to be very amusing since I didn't and don't have a scanner. And Andrey was able to ID most of the sources for most of the packs b'c they have their own logos. I was messing around with the several links to Moravoseed this AM, which isn't just about seeds as you know, and saw just a few listings for beets, radishes, kohlrabi, but without doing more digging I have no idea if they bred them themselves, as they say they do for some varieties, or if they were listing varieties developed at other companies. So I say more power to you, and dig all you want to, which I know you will. As for me, it's back out to the LV to turn the fan up higher and enjoy the tennis semi-finals from Atlanta, that's Atlanta, GA, not the one under water in the Caribbean. 
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Carolyn |
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July 23, 2011
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#85 |
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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I posted without seeing your latest post which I don't have time to read now, but when I said I knew you'd keep digging, I knew I was right.
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Carolyn |
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July 23, 2011
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#86 | |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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Quote:
.............
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"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
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July 23, 2011
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#87 |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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In addition to what Tania already posted....Stupické is linked to Moravskoe-Chudo AKA Moravsky Div on several websites.......
Ступике = Stupické Моравское чудо = Moravskoe-Chudo AKA Moravsky Div http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...83%D0%B4%D0%BE)
__________________
"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
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July 23, 2011
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#88 |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,984
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Carolyn, we had to erect a deer fence this year as we too have a doe with twin fawns parking in the woods behind our shade garden. I caught her sniffing certain flowers with drool in the corners of her mouth
 So up went the fence  I'll write myself a note to send you some of the better stuff this fall when I start mailing out little gift packs. I owe Suze a few as well. |
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July 24, 2011
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#89 | |||
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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Well, in the end, I didn't have to look any further than this forum to learn that Moravian Wonder AKA Moravsky Div is a Stupicke, and likely Stupicke polni rane based on the evidence above. It's also interesting to note that Stupicke polni rane appears to be the most popular Stupicke (by far) in the Czech Republic.
Quotes from Andrey in February of 2006....... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, it's been fun!!!
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"The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can shoot and trap out of it!"
Last edited by DiggingDogFarm; July 24, 2011 at 01:30 PM. |
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July 24, 2011
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#90 |
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Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 286
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I'll bet that Moravoseed filed my inquiry in the insanity slot!!! I get that a lot!! LOL
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