F1, F2, etc. question

[piegirl]

Several summers ago I had an unusual volunteer in my compost bin. I badly negelected the plant, she was hit twice with herbicide drift and still continued on producing two large apricot/gold fruit. Being an addict, I, of course saved the seed. Last year I planted and grew out the seed - that would be F1? or is the volunteer considered the F1? Last year produced the original apricot/gold, a fair pink, and an awful red. Saved seed from the orig. and the pink. So this year would be a F-2 grow out of the original? This year's plant is an absolute monster of tomato plant, loads of flowers and just beginning to set. Big as a brandywine. Hope I explained this okay. Thanks for the assistance. Piegirl

[habitat_gardener]

Depends on whether the original volunteer came from a commercial hybrid or a chance cross.

If it was a random cross of your plants (and the parent was an OP), the volunteer was the F1, last year's crop the F2, and this year's monster the F3.

If it came from a hybrid fruit (the F1), then the volunteer was the F2, last year's crop the F3, and this year's monster the F4.

[piegirl]

Thank you habitat - I have no clue as to its origins - I never compost tomato stuff and 12-13 years since I grew an orange or yellow and the bins have been emptied many times over. Before really growing alot of heirlooms, I always tried whatever I could that was different, long before I heard of T-ville, GW, Totally Tomatoes, etc. We will just have to wait for this year's crop of F-3 or F-4! Just so it isn't the red - that one was bad.
Piegirl

[nctomatoman]

It is amazing how confusing this can be (even when pondering it over and over), and I suspect for those that haven't ventured into genetics, even more baffling! I think the confusion is because the tomato and the seeds in the tomato are called different generations, and it gets easily muddled.

I think you did a good job, habitat, above - and I think you've got it, piegirl - but in case others visit this post and want the next level of detail...

To talk it through with a familiar example that is near and dear to my heart - the Lucky Cross story (in very brief).

So in 1997 I grow out some Brandywine I saved in 1993 and there were a few regular leaf seedlings amongst the expected potato leaf. (they could have been the result of a cross or of mix up, or stray seed - but it was because of a cross, so is pertinent to use as an example). The bees visited one of the flowers on my Brandywine plant in 1993 with pollen from another variety - the fruit that developed was the hybrid fruit, and the seed in the tomato that I saved the F1 seed.

So I kept one of those regular leaf seedlings and grew it out - that is when I got the unusual large, pink fruit with vertical yellow stripes that confirmed it was a cross. The Striped fruit contained seeds that were the F2 generation.

When I grew out a slew of those seeds, I noted great variation in those F2 fruit. The seeds in those various fruits from the range of plants I grew out were F3. And on and on - I actually made a selection of one of the F2 fruits that became the basis of Lucky Cross and Little Lucky, but it took several more generations to get them to be uniform, and stable enough to consider them to be new varieties.

Hope that helps...of course, I may have also just muddled things up even further!

[rjs55555]

Craig,

I can't wait to grow my lucky cross seeds that I got next year. I have got to say that there are a lot of amazing people on this forum. Thank you and the other experts for all of the hard work on making different varieties!

[Raymondo]

piegirl, since you're not likely to ever know the origin of the seed that grew in your compost, you might as well take that plant as the F1. It's offspring did what you'd expect an F2 generation to do - be different.

F1 plant -> F1 fruit -> F2 seed -> F2 plant -> F2 fruit -> F3 seed -> F3 plant -> F3 fruit -> F4 seed and so on.

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

The bees visited one of the flowers on my Brandywine plant in 1993 with pollen from another variety - the fruit that developed was the hybrid fruit, and the seed in the tomato that I saved the F1 seed.

Craig, the fruit wouldn't have been a hybrid. It would have been a Brandywine fruit. The fruit is maternal material, don't forget, so could be nothing else except a Brandywine fruit. Definitely hybrid seeds though, as your subsequent grow outs showed.

[piegirl]

An update on my Compost Baby - she really went into hyper drive - a monster of a plant producing equally monster fruit - apricot/gold - many were at or over 2 pounds. Unfortunately this was a banner year for grasshoppers who ate away right around the stem (BIG chews) then we had heavy rain which filled the cavities and resulted in rotten fruit. The taste is pretty great - a bit spicy and juicy, thin skin. When cut open, she looked just like a nice ripe mango. On the next grow out, will I get the same monster plant? Since I only had one plant (my fault on the germination etc) I don't know if she is stable but boy, this has been a great fun project. Piegirl

[yotetrapper]

Fascinating story there Piegirl. I'm learning so much from this forum. Did you ever take any pics of your fruit?

[piegirl]

Update on this year's growout - two plants and they came true - just as tasty as last year. The fruit is smaller but they were planted quite late and I worried if I would get any fruit at all. In a year of every rot and spot hitting the patch, I would judge disease resistance as good, and the plants are 'husky' to hold all that large fruit. This would be F-4 or F-5. When is a plant considered to be stable? They are heavy setters. Piegirl

[jessennessen]

Hi piegirl

Very interisting story! I would like to try your special Compost Baby if you are interiested in a seed swap. I wil send you a pb with E-mail.

[piegirl]

Hi Jessennessen - welcome to Tomatoville - here you will find a most welcoming group of tomatoes growers. First, how about going to the Town hall section (at the beginning) and introduce yourself and let us know of your interest in tomatoes and gardening. It not terribly polite on your 3rd post to ask individuals for seeds, even if you are willing to trade.
Piegirl - just one Dane to another, yes I am Danish

[Hairy Moose Knuckles]

Did ya snap any pictures PG?

[jessennessen]

First, how about going to the Town hall section (at the beginning) and introduce yourself and let us know of your interest in tomatoes and gardening.

I have now done that.

It not terribly polite on your 3rd post to ask individuals for seeds, even if you are willing to trade.

I suppose you are right. I was not my intension to be rude! I was just fascinated by your story, and the tomato with its vigorous growth seemed very interesting. My intension was not so much to ask seeds from you it was more an invitation to swap seeds. Hope I didn’t make to bad fist impression.

Piegirl - just one Dane to another, yes I am Danish

Hey! Good to hear. So what is a Dane doing so far away from "home"?

[piegirl]

my friend took pictures in '09 but we never figured out how to post them - he has the camera, not me. But in '09 they were a sight to see. This year's were almost as large, certainly the vine was a huge but they were planted late, set late, etc. And the season overall was late. Piegirl