Moravsky div not determinate?

[Tania]

Interesting...

I did googling for a russian name of this tomato and found some interesting info here: http://www.naturalflower.ru/sorta/017/sorta-135.html:

***the following excerpt is in Russian, so you may not see it correctly if you do not have appropriate font/encoding on your system***

ТОМАТ СТУПИКЕ (МОРАВСКОЕ ЧУДО)

Для открытого грунта и пленочных тоннелей. Сорт раннеспелый, индетерминантный. От всходов до созревания плодов 83-90 дней. Растение штамбовое, среднерослое, высотой 140-180 см. Лист картофельного типа. Соцветие сложное. Первое соцветие закладывается над 6-7 листом, последующие через 3 листа. Плоды 2-3 камерные, округлые, ярко-красного цвета. Масса плода 30-45 г. Толерантен к фитофторозу и к вершинной гнили плодов. Урожайность 6-7 кг.

First of all, the above says the name is STUPICE (aka Moravskoe Chudo = Moravsky Div).

Secondly, the description says 'indet.' and generally matches the description of Stupice. I have highlighted the key words in bold.

WOW.

Tania

[Tania]

Bwt, all the Russian sources say it is indet., PL, and early.

I have four Moravsky Div plants growing in my garden at the farm. This one plant is here in town only two days in the ground. My seed packet says--Czech CV from Andrey. Moravsky Div tomato PL.


I'll have better pictures later.

[Sherry_AK]

Originally Posted by Tania

Interesting...

I did googling for a russian name of this tomato and found some interesting info here: http://www.naturalflower.ru/sorta/017/sorta-135.html:

...

First of all, the above says the name is STUPICE (aka Moravskoe Chudo = Moravsky Div).

Secondly, the description says 'indet.' and generally matches the description of Stupice. I have highlighted the key words in bold.

WOW.

Tania

That is interesting! I grow Stupice every year and this plant isn't looking much like that, other than that it's also PL. I'll be anxious to see how the fruits compare.

Thanks for that information (well, at least thanks for the parts I could actually read!!!)

Sherry

[Marko]

I just returned from 10 days vacation and most of my tomatoes grew more than 1ft in this time. MD on the other side grew only few inches. It looks like it's semi-det. It is 4+ft high with a lot of blossoms on tips, but it doesn't look like it will grow much higher. I also had a few ripe fruits and taste is very good for an early tomato. Better than Stupice in my opinion.

[carolyn137]

Tania, I do have problems with Moravsky Div being IDed as Stupice and being indet, based on growing both. The fruits of Stupice are globes whereas the fruits of MD are smaller and are not globes. I called them squarish in shape, as did others who list them in the SSE YEarbooks, and Andrey does the same in calling them irregular globes I think it was.

And I also reread the comments of others in this thread.

No one knows who actually bred the four Stupice variants, two for indoor growing and two for outdoor growing b/c we tried desperately to find that out many years ago and actually made phone contact with a person at the Czech plant station where we know they were bred and that person could not ID who actually bred them there.

Both are PL, that we know, but MD, at least for me and others who got seed from Andrey found that it wasn't indet and that the fruits were not the same shape, nor size, and speaking for myself I found the taste to be superior to Stupice, and I also have grown Stupicke, seeds sent to me in a commercial pack , from Europe, long ago. Stupicke is one of the two variants for outdoor growing.

When I Google Moravoseed I find that they're primarily a research and development company but also sell seeds for varieties they didn't breed.

Am I to assume that Moravoseed bred Moravsky Div for I know that Stupice was bred at a plant station in the Czech Republic many many years ago. It was confusing at first b'c M. Sodomka was the person who distributed seeds for Stupice and others bred by the same person in Czechoslovakia, but he wasn't, he just distributed seeds for Stupice and Czech Bush and I forget now the others he brought to the US and they were first listed at Abundant Life ? seeds in the PNW.

I could go with det or semi-det but not indet based on growing out the seeds that I got from Andrey and based on the SSE listings of others as well.

Tania, just curious, but what was the actual source of that information from Russia? A seed company, someone just expressing his or her own opinion, etc?

[Tania]

Carolyn,

The information I googled is a summary from commercial seed sources.

The description I quoted also says that the plant is compact, 140-180 cm tall (4-5'). I can see some folks would call it semi-det, just based on the size of the plant.

I also checked out Moravoseed CV, and they do not have this tomato in their catalog this year.

Tania

[dice]

Well, Moravsky Div might as well be indeterminate here. It does not stop
producing before first frost. It does not really taste like the Stupice that
I originally got seeds of from Seeds of Change, and the shape of the fruit
is different. In growth habit, Moravsky Div and Stupice are very close,
but Moravsky Div has been a little more compact plant (usually; growth
habit can vary among two plants of the same cultivar if there are
differences in daily light exposure, nutrients available in the soil,
nutrients available to seedlings in small pots or seed-starting cells, etc).

From Carolyn's comments, there was apparently more than one
"Stupice" cultivar, originally. We think of just one of them (that is
widely distributed in the US) as the canonical Stupice, but
Moravsky Div could have been one of the other cultivars from
the same plant breeder: Stupice II, or something like that.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dice

Well, Moravsky Div might as well be indeterminate here. It does not stop
producing before first frost. It does not really taste like the Stupice that
I originally got seeds of from Seeds of Change, and the shape of the fruit
is different. In growth habit, Moravsky Div and Stupice are very close,
but Moravsky Div has been a little more compact plant (usually; growth
habit can vary among two plants of the same cultivar if there are
differences in daily light exposure, nutrients available in the soil,
nutrients available to seedlings in small pots or seed-starting cells, etc).

From Carolyn's comments, there was apparently more than one
"Stupice" cultivar, originally. We think of just one of them (that is
widely distributed in the US) as the canonical Stupice, but
Moravsky Div could have been one of the other cultivars from
the same plant breeder: Stupice II, or something like that.

Dice, not all determinates produce all their fruits at the same time and there are dets that do produce throughout the summer.

I had no idea that Seeds of Change were offering Moravsky Div so I went to the website and no Moravsly Div listed:

http://www.seedsofchange.com/garden_...ry.aspx?id=185

I doubt that any of the other ones bred in Czechoslavakia other than than the Stupicke one, for outside growing as is Stupice, ever made it very far from where they were bred other than being used as CV's for glasshouse growing there. My comment based on what I was told by Kees Sahin, now deceased, who owned Sahin Seeds in the Netherlands who actually knew Milan Sodomka who took Stupice and the other ones, not Stupice related, to the US and to Abundant Life Seeds.

[maf]

Counting the leaf nodes between flower trusses would surely settle it one way or the other? Unfortunately mine did not germinate this year so I cannot do the count myself.

All the Russian seed sites I was google-translating earlier on list "МОРАВСКОЕ ЧУДО" as indeterminate. One or two of them listed it as a synonym for Stupice, as Tatiana noted above, but most did not.

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Dice, not all determinates produce all their fruits at the same time and there are dets that do produce throughout the summer.

I had no idea that Seeds of Change were offering Moravsky Div so I went to the website and no Moravsly Div listed:

http://www.seedsofchange.com/garden_...ry.aspx?id=185

I doubt that any of the other ones bred in Czechoslavakia other than than the Stupicke one, for outside growing as is Stupice, ever made it very far from where they were bred other than being used as CV's for glasshouse growing there. My comment based on what I was told by Kees Sahin, now deceased, who owned Sahin Seeds in the Netherlands who actually knew Milan Sodomka who took Stupice and the other ones, not Stupice related, to the US and to Abundant Life Seeds.

If I read Dice's reply right I think meant the stupice was from seeds of change not Moravsky Div but I could be wrong.

Craig

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gobig_or_Gohome_toms

If I read Dice's reply right I think meant the stupice was from seeds of change not Moravsky Div but I could be wrong.

Craig

You're right.

I was reading too fast and goofed.

[dice]

I was just surmising that the Russian seed vendors and perhaps
Moravoseed had sourced slightly different cultivars from the same
Czech plant breeder themselves, directly, about the same time
that Milan Sodomka brought Stupice to the US or some years later.

They could have had a "Stupice" in circulation among growers in
Eastern Europe and the CIS that was slightly different than the
Stupice we had in circulation in the US.

Here is a picture of Moravsky Div at the farm: Does anybody know what is chomping on the leaves? {This is lower Michigan}

[bcday]

Originally Posted by WillysWoodPile

Here is a picture of Moravsky Div at the farm: Does anybody know what is chomping on the leaves?

Flea beetles, shiny black pinhead-size critters that hop like fleas when disturbed. They love potatoes and eggplant too.