Micro-organisms

[Blueaussi]

What rules?

All the articles I read have one setting out unfiltered containers. There is no way to control what microorganisms are collected. Early blight is fairly endemic to the southeast, so how can it be filtered out?

This still sounds way woo woo to me. I think sticking to adding compost and mulch to the soil would be far more beneficial.

[igarden]

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

What rules?

the recipes.

All the articles I read have one setting out unfiltered containers. There is no way to control what microorganisms are collected. Early blight is fairly endemic to the southeast, so how can it be filtered out?

i think it's what is used to make the EM/BIM. one is trying to collect the 'beneficial' organisms from one's area.

EM Trivia

Red Cross sprays EM on bodies from Tsunami casualties before mass burial to prevent odors and spread of disease.

EM used for mold remediation/cleanup after Katrina in New Orleans.

EM approved for diaster recovery in US by FEMA.

Gram positive Microorganisms (EM) found in salt water increase after natural disasters resulting in decrease of pathogenic bacteria. [Izzy wonders if this is connected in some way to red tide/brown tide we often get that causes a massive fish kill?]

Terra Preta works hand-in-hand with EM-Bokashi by storing nutrients in soil, preventing leaching away.

Purification of industrial wastewater using photosynthetic bacterial formula produces by-products used as food for animals and fish. Treated fish and birds grew/layed eggs at a significantly greater rate than controls. By-product of purified wastewater also dried and used as natural fertilizer. Production showed an increase in number of fruit per tree plus heavier, sweeter fruit.

Originally Posted by beeman

This is why it's important to follow the rules.
Also it's why it's suggested you use 'Finished Thermal Compost' wherever possible, the 'Thermal' treatment destroys any pathogens.

excellent points beeman. and as far as the LB, EM/BIM, they are all majorly benign, so should not be a problem. as i mentioned before, my first attempt at making EM/BIM ended up with a mold on it i couldn't identify and didn't look right to me after all my reading. also, the smell was not of sweetness that they mention in the recipes. solved the problem with a 'fresher' ingredient change. same with my first batch of LB. adding the milk helps to separate the whey from the concoction, and the smell will improve. first one didn't. found out it was my timing. managed to save it and the rest of my batches all were fine.

one other thought..." buying EM negates the whole purpose of EM - the intent is to culture indigenous micro-o's that nuture plants in your particular enviroment - buying EM will get you micro's from wherever it was manufactured."

Originally Posted by beeman

.....Here is a question? I make cheese during the winter, and part of the process produces large quantities of whey, same as from Yogurt, up to 2 gallons of the stuff. Suppose I made up the LB from it, and applied it at full strength? Would it do any damage, as the suggestions are to use it at 1-20 dilution.
If I was to use the suggested strength I would have some 40 gallons of product to use. I could spray the neighborhood.

beeman, i have wondered about using a stroner formula myself, as i too have loads of LB on hand. let me know whaat you find out...or i will, if i try and when it.

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

I see all these potions as backyard science. You read about something or come up with an idea on your own, you test it out, and you see if it works in your garden. The ones based on rice are "natural" as opposed to, say, some hucksters that suggest using toxins such as mothballs. (I, personally, would not use milk products on my garden, just as I would not ingest them.)

the milk is only used as a catalyst to separate the serum from the product. the leftover solid product can be placed in the compost...i do not drink milk either, tho use it in cooking.

I don't see any problem with someone asking, hey, has anyone tried this stuff, and what did you notice? Experimenting and observing: the basics of science. This rooting-around stage, which comes before the rigorous tests with controls and peer review, is an important part of discovery.

But so far I've seen only "shoulds" and arm waving, debates about who's drunk the coolaid and who hasn't, and vague statements about trying some unidentified substance and seeing overnight results -- which does indeed sound questionable.

So I'm interested in specifics. What did you use on what plant, what were you attempting to fix, what results did you observe?

as i mentioned before, i have taken no pics of my experiments, tho will next year, but a friend of mine has. i have her permission to quote her findings she posted on idig.....you'll have to go to the link to see her pics...

http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showt...t=17135&page=2

"Here's a pic of my first batch of homemade EM - Effective Microorganisms - as it's called in the western world; or BIM - Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms in eastern cultures. It is a totally new concept for me, so it took a while to wrap my head around the idea. It may be familiar to some of you, especially those of you that brew your own compost teas.

yesterday AM

I have 2 orange bell pepper plants that were producing well in late winter (we've had a warm winter), but in the past few weeks, have developed what I believe to be Septoria leaf spot. Both plants have quit producing and are some sad looking plants with a large percentage of the leaves brown and dying. I planned to pull them, but first decided to use them as a test for my fresh batch of EM: what effects would a heavy application cause - burn the plant?, attact fire ants?, leave a residue on the leaves?, or just outright kill them? Clearly, I had no high hopes comparable to the hype I'd read about the stuff - just a bit of curiosity.

After mixing a double strength batch, I poured some on the leaves remaining on the plants, then drenched the soil with the rest. Standing there wondering to myself how long I should wait to get those plants out of there, it suddenly seemed that the brown patches on the leaves were dissolving away. No way - couldn't be - not that fast! I stood there with my gaze fixed on a large brown/rusty patch on one of the leaves and watched it melt away. What remained was a thin layer of yellow plant leaf tissue that still had some life left in it with a tiny dark spot in the center. It even seemed that the green portion of the leaves were a darker, more vibrant green - now that was wishful thinking.

About that time, my daughter pulled up in the drive - we had some plans for the afternoon. I didn't get home until about 4 hours later, and the first thing I did was go check on those pepper plants. Amazing is the only way to describe it - the yellow blotches were greening up a bit, and both plants were now standing erect. Before, the leaves were limp and looked ready to fall off despite adequate watering. I felt the leaves, and they were soft and pliable, not sticky or stiff. I was a little hopeful that they might survive, and decided to leave them in for a few days to see how things progressed. After all was said and done, I wished I had taken pictures of the entire process, but at the onset of this experiment, I was certain that I would be pulling those plants out of there before nightfall. Never occured to me that I would see results so quickly.

Today PM

After work today, I again inspected them - no detrimental effects from the heavy dose. A few brown patches remain. Took a couple pics. The real test will be to see if these plants will resume growing and producing.

2nd pic - top view
3rd pic - bottom view"

one can also go the GW and there are pics posted there of the amazing results of potatoes using BIM verses some not....http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...021917181.html

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

What happens when you scoop up a bacteria or fungus that's pathogenic to tomatoes or peppers, nurture it so its numbers explode, and then you spray it on your garden?

you don't. as beeman said, if you follow the instructions there should be no problems. if there are, you'll spot them before applying your product. and, what you are concocting is something that is 'beneficial'.

Originally Posted by Barbee

I agree with you 100% on the soil test. You just need to know what you're dealing with before you can try to fix it. As for the IBM/EM, I just really don't know much about it. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why spraying something on your plants would improve the tilth of your soil...which in my opinion, is the secret to growing good plants. If you add compost that had been composted on your own ground, wouldn't that be introducing the local bacteria you're trying to get?
Does that make sense?

yes barbee, it does make sense. also, with the EM/BIM, which i still am a newbie at experimenting with, is not just sprayed on the plants, but on the soil and around the base of the plants to health and improvement.

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

That's the way it seems to me. However, I think, and I may have this wrong, those who are trying to add EM/BIM organisms are preparing solutions that are supposed to boost the beneficial organisms and prevent growth of pathogens. The solution, when applied to the garden soil is supposed to give a boost to the growth of beneficials , which in turn crowd out and/or inhibit pathogenic organisms.

When plants are sprayed with the EM/BIM solutions, pathogenic organisms are supposedly prevented from infecting the plants because the EM/BIM organisms either grow on the leaves and stems and crowd out any pathogens or because the EM/BIM solution makes the plants so amazingly healthy they fight off the pathogens. At least, that's what I think the theory is, I get a little confused, different practitioners have made different claims.

i'm still working on understanding it too. the way i have seen it is that the EM/BIM aid the soil in being healthy and thus the plants are more healthy and able to fight disease and infection. also, if there is a plant struggling with a virus, disease, the EM/BIM help it immediately in healing itself.

[Barbee]

Well I think it all sounds really interesting. I hope you will keep updating this thread and keep us informed.

[RJ_Hythloday]

Beeman and igarden, more is not better in this situation. Alot of the reading I did on this subject last winter shows that less is more. I've got a 2ltr bottle still 3/4 full of LB from this spring. It's about time for a soil drench, after garden clean up and building compost piles. Still got toms and no threat of frost yet though.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by RJ_Hythloday

It's about time for a soil drench, after garden clean up and building compost piles. Still got toms and no threat of frost yet though.

What we are doing seems to extend the growing season. I notice all the leaves are off the big Maples, but all my garden still has green leaves.
There has been a number of comments requesting photos, so I thought I would include some of my garden taken earlier in the season.
For the sceptics, just look at the lack of insect damage. Those radish (pic 4) were spotless till I pulled them.

[amideutch]

i'm still working on understanding it too. the way i have seen it is that the EM/BIM aid the soil in being healthy and thus the plants are more healthy and able to fight disease and infection.

This is nothing new. It's a given that healthy plants are less suseptable to disease than non healthy ones!

also, if there is a plant struggling with a virus, disease, the EM/BIM help it immediately in healing itself.

This is a pretty ambiguous statement. Facts and references please. Ami

[beeman]

Originally Posted by amideutch

This is nothing new. It's a given that healthy plants are less suseptable to disease than non healthy ones!
This is a pretty ambiguous statement. Facts and references please. Ami

I can only quote what I have found.
Apple scab has been a major problem on an old Macintosh which was in the garden before me. Every year I've tried to eliminate with various chemicals and it always comes back.
This year I've used ACT on it and there was no sign on any of the fruit we picked. I won't be certain till next year, but I believe I have fixed it.
It would seem that if you can use ACT early in the cycle it will help to eliminate a variety of problems, but once the disease is well established not so much.

[Blueaussi]

Originally Posted by igarden

the recipes.

i think it's what is used to make the EM/BIM. one is trying to collect the 'beneficial' organisms from one's area.

The growth media that is listed in the articles that I read, with the possible exception of milk, and I'm not sure about that; are not specific enough to inhibit the growth of potential plant pathogens. There is no way, in the process that has been described in the articles I read, that possible contaminates can be excluded. The conditions described would also be favorable for staph, e coli, and listeria bacteria to proliferate, which I don't particularly want to spray on plants I will be eating.

one other thought..." buying EM negates the whole purpose of EM - the intent is to culture indigenous micro-o's that nuture plants in your particular enviroment - buying EM will get you micro's from wherever it was manufactured."

No it doesn't. Buying effective microorganisms insures exclusion of pathogens. It doesn't even really defeat the purpose of beneficial indigenous microorganisms, it simply gives it a commercial twist. Which, you know, folks were defending up thread.

the milk is only used as a catalyst to separate the serum from the product. the leftover solid product can be placed in the compost...i do not drink milk either, tho use it in cooking.

No, the milk is a growth medium for the lactobacilli. I believe the process is the bacilli multiply and convert the lactose to lactic acid. The acid then causes the milk solids to coagulate and separate from the serum. The problem is, as Ami mentioned up thread, that there are a lot of different species of lactobacillus. How do you determine which one you have, and if it has the beneficial properties you're seeking?

What I'm gathering here is that you guys don't really understand the science well enough to explain it, and that it would be best to pursue answers elseweb.

[igarden]

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

.......What I'm gathering here is that you guys don't really understand the science well enough to explain it, and that it would be best to pursue answers elseweb.

well, you're right. i don't have all the answers to your questions. when i have questions about this i generally ask someone in the know, or study it. i mentioned several times here that i am a newbie at this, and, that i did one experiment that failed. i knew so, as i mentioned, because it did not look like what the recipe said it should look like, and it did not smell as the recipe said it should smell. therefore, i was smart enough to thropw it out and start again. simple.

what about the pics that have been posted about the good effects of these concoctions? what about those of us who have had good experiences with these recipes?

[Blueaussi]

Correlation is not causation.

When ice cream sales go up in Great Briton, so do shark attacks, therefor we can conclude that eating ice cream causes shark attacks, right?

There are so many variables in what y'all are doing, there is no way at this time to conclude which is helping, hurting, or doing nothing to the plants. Beeman mentions the lack of insect damage and credits spraying with his BIM, but were there even any bugs on the plants to begin with? And just the mechanical act of spraying can dislodge bugs, so if he had sprayed with water, would he have gotten the same results?

And, say what if it was the effective microbes that made his garden so beautiful this time, what about next time? What if a wandering cat buried some poop a year ago in the leaf litter he scooped up to get beneficial indigenous microbes, and he gets a little e coli mixed in his concoction or a little salmonella from a snake that slithered through, then he sprays that on his lettuce?

There are so many questions I would want answered before I would try this, and none of the articles I read addressed them. They were too busy with all the By-Gosh-By Golly-isn't-this-wonderful-we're-going-to-save-the-world stuff.

[igarden]

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

Correlation is not causation.

that's not always true!

When ice cream sales go up in Great Briton, so do shark attacks, therefor we can conclude that eating ice cream causes shark attacks, right?

no. i would say it was about the hot weather...is that when the sharks come out? is that when you eat ice cream?

There are so many variables in what y'all are doing, there is no way at this time to conclude which is helping, hurting, or doing nothing to the plants. Beeman mentions the lack of insect damage and credits spraying with his BIM, but were there even any bugs on the plants to begin with? And just the mechanical act of spraying can dislodge bugs, so if he had sprayed with water, would he have gotten the same results?

i don't know beeman, but from what he has posted i would think he was testing these methods and really watching for changes, like i was. he also asked if others had any experience with this. i'm sure he would've acknowledged that there were or were not bugs on the plants before and after. and i'm certain he knows that spraying does dislodge bugs.

imo, he's taken info and is practicing it and studying. i very much appreciate his findings and those of all others who are inquisitive.

And, say what if it was the effective microbes that made his garden so beautiful this time, what about next time? What if a wandering cat buried some poop a year ago in the leaf litter he scooped up to get beneficial indigenous microbes, and he gets a little e coli mixed in his concoction or a little salmonella from a snake that slithered through, then he sprays that on his lettuce?

see blue, if you had read my article, you would know that one doesn't just 'scoop up' leaf litter to get BIMs. there's a technique to it. you can find it if you reread the article. Gil is very specific, and so are the others who are posting recipes. someone else here wass doing a similar process.

There are so many questions I would want answered before I would try this, and none of the articles I read addressed them. They were too busy with all the By-Gosh-By Golly-isn't-this-wonderful-we're-going-to-save-the-world stuff.

well, the article i posted didn't have the 'save-the-world stuff' in it. it had specific recipes, photos of the process as well as the end result, and so on. ' By-Gosh-By Golly' gee, i guess nothing is going to satisfy you except for the posting of an Einstein. that's ok. maybe we can now get back to the topic at hand and others who are inquisitive can start posting their findings...maybe?!

[beeman]

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

. The conditions described would also be favorable for staph, e coli, and listeria bacteria to proliferate, which I don't particularly want to spray on plants I will be eating.

There is a saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's what we have here.
E coli comes from feces (manure), both human and animal. So unless you're stupid enough to put raw manure in your garden, complete with e coli and the anti-biotics, de-wormers etc, then the chance of getting e coli in ACT is very, very remote.
If you insist on using manure it should be Thermally Composted and 'finished', or passed through a worm bin to remove any possibility of pathogens being passed on.

[Blueaussi]

*headdesk maneuver*



*wanders off making a bubbering sound with lips*

[amideutch]

The mention of human excrement reminds me of an article I read in a Hydroponics book. After WWll ended and the occupational forces landed in Japan they started comming down with dysentery. The cause was the locally grown produce they were eating. Come to find out the Japanese had been using human excrement for centuries as a fertilizer for their crops. The locals had adapted to it so it didn't affect them. Solution, the military set up hydroponic stations to grow there greens untill they could import them.Ami

[RJ_Hythloday]

Originally Posted by amideutch

The mention of human excrement reminds me of an article I read in a Hydroponics book. After WWll ended and the occupational forces landed in Japan they started comming down with dysentery. The cause was the locally grown produce they were eating. Come to find out the Japanese had been using human excrement for centuries as a fertilizer for their crops. The locals had adapted to it so it didn't affect them. Solution, the military set up hydroponic stations to grow there greens untill they could import them.Ami

Korea's the same way. I lived there as a kid, the first few months the stench was unbearable. No composting. We rinsed all our veggies w/ bleach water, boiled our water or bottled for drinking.