Newbie here with deep horse trough container. Can it work?

[fonseca]

Originally Posted by biscuitridge

FONSECA- Do you have any pictures of tomatoes growing in your set-up? I've tried a self watering system but could not get the same or better results as in ground growing, as you can see in the picture my plants get 8 to 10 feet tall with loads of big beautiful heirloom organic tomatoes. If yours works I'd be interested in trying it.

If I had awesome soil I would be all about growing in the ground. I miss cover-cropping. Do you need a roommate? In my suburban area there are lots of backyard gardens in use for decades, the soil hardpan, and I have had huge problems with fusarium and verticillium wilt. As in, if I plant a tomato in the ground I can guarantee it will die of wilt before I get a decent harvest. This is why I moved over to containers exclusively.

Sub-irrigation is a good alternative to drip irrigation, and there's no wasted water. Watering from below doesn't disturb the fine feeder roots right at the top of the medium like top-watering does (although that can be mitigated with a good mulch)

I honestly believe that I do get an increased harvest over growing in the ground. The reason being, even 100 gallon containers warm up to a good temperature range for planting several weeks before the soil. And the continuous, even moisture helps prevent BER and splitting of fruit.

I don't have any numbers to back that up. This year I am recording yield per plant for the 10 tomato plants in my 2 stock tanks, but the above claims are based solely on my experience in the hot and humid southeast.

This is a good harvest from stock tank #2 last year, which was extremely overcrowded with as many other plants as tomatoes. The only thing noteworthy was the ripe Pink Brandywine in the bottom right. That's a truly exceptional tomato for my tastes, and I get so few whereas green and yellow zebra don't quit.



I had several plants that were over 10' tall last year, that went up one side of the trellis and down the other. Now that I finally joined this forum I will take more photos and document my results this season. Right now I just have half a dozen tiny tomatoes starting to grow. This was before I had any ripe tomatoes last year:



Not trying to hijack your thread squirrel789! It's yours, do post more updates and photos! Your enthusiasm must be catching.

[biscuitridge]

FONSECA- can you share with us what soil mixture your using and also are you strictly organic? I as well as you have disease issues that's why all of mine are grafted. Thanks for your generosity in sharing what you do.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by fonseca

Not trying to hijack your thread squirrel789! It's yours, do post more updates and photos! Your enthusiasm must be catching.

Nothing to apologize for, this is exactly what I was hoping for! I was stoked to see the new posts and love to see how others are doing their containers and learn what I can from it! I just haven't posted in awhile, I've been on vacation since last Thursday. Went to a lake house but the lake was WAY up due to excessive rain and essentially a gross mud puddle. Still had fun though, I just stayed out of the water...

biscuitridge - I love the trellis system for the raised bed! I would definitely be interested in trying something like that next year! I'm sure I could attach the side posts to the trough with the proper hardware and holes drilled. I've never used the string and clip method but seen it on some various post, but they usually required a greenhouse to attach the top of the strings to (not really possible in my space). Yours is my favorite I've seen so far though. Orderly, neat and looks very sturdy and well-built.

Maybe I missed it, but how long are the string going to the top of the trellis, and have you ever had problems with the vines growing over? Also, I assume you prune the plants to strictly 2 vines, given the 2 strings? Sorry for all the questions, I've just not tried the string method. I'm curious to see more as the plants continue to grow.

The portable greenhouse looks optimal as well, very well-planned and executed, and better than any kit for that price. It looks like you've done this sort of thing before...
Ahhh, to have more space.

Thank you for sharing your awesome setup! I hope people keep 'em coming :-)

As for my plants, a liberal dusting of DE into and on top of the mulch and light application of a VERY diluted pyrethrin spray (.01%) with canola oil worked wonders. When I came back I saw very few, almost none actually, of the pests I had been seeing before I left. No more chewed leaves or spots, and nothing that really concerned me. I am hoping it was mostly the DE. After reading a bit more about the pyrethrin spray (although it didn't have any of the more dangerous PBO in it), it is still quite toxic to cats, which I'd like to avoid.

Anyway, the trellis is a bit embarrassing compared to some here, but the plants are growing and flowering well, even a few little green toms on couple plants. We finally got some heat and dry weather and they really started to take off while I was gone. As someone predicted earlier, it's getting to be a bit of a jungle in there, and I will need a taller support system soon if they continue at the current rate. I decided to give them a bit of a "haircut" while pruning by removing just a few of the lowest foliage branches, but it still looks pretty jungle-ish. My bad since I planted a few too many into that space I guess, but they seem to be doing alright so far!

The only plant that hasn't really wanted to take off yet is my Golden Jubilee heirloom, though I can't see anything obviously wrong with it (spots, yellowing or curling leaves, pests, etc.). Maybe that variety is a bit of a late bloomer? I am afraid it is going to get over-shadowed before long. The other heirlooms are doing fine, but that one seems a bit behind. It's on the far right of the second pic.

Anyway, here's how the garden goes (grows?) so far after almost 3 weeks:

[biscuitridge]

The strings are about 8 feet and so far they haven't gone over the top, but it looks as though maybe they will this year.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by biscuitridge

The strings are about 8 feet and so far they haven't gone over the top, but it looks as though maybe they will this year.

Best of luck! I hope you'll need a ladder by late in the season

I do have one other question about the string trellis, however. If you plant a larger fruit variety or have heavy fruit clusters, does the string and clips solely support them, or do you add additional support of some kind? Admittedly a newbie question, but I'm curious about this method.

Thanks for your posts and replies!

Also Fonesca, your pics are making me hungry I grew a couple small yellow pear-shaped tomatoes a few years back when I had an in-ground garden, and I really liked them. I had a lot of trouble with mine splitting though.

[biscuitridge]

I don't think you should have any problem with the string being able to hold large fruit unless your getting up in the 3.5 pound range then I'd be more concerned about the stem than the clips, I've had quite a few 2 to 3 pounders on one leader and never had an issue, wish great success ☺

[squirrel789]

It's been awhile, so I thought I'd post a relatively brief update since I am sort of using this thread to chart my progress through the season with my first tomato trough gardening experiment.

We've been literally flooded with rain again over the previous week and a half. In fact, the James river which is decently-sized and flows very near my house, was the highest in recorded history a couple days ago, according to the local news (pic of the flooding is at the end of the post). It was close to covering the highway and many smaller roads were closed due to the flooding.

So basically my container's been very soggy for awhile now, and I suspect some of the nutrients have been washed out.

I've had trouble with blossoms forming sparsely on the lower portions, but the upper parts of the plants are looking much better. We've had some sun and temps in the 90's today and most of yesterday, which is helping things get back to normal. As discussed in another thread, the unhealthy blossoms on the lower sections are starting to finally set some fruit, and things are looking up a bit. I still am trying to decide how best to give the container a shot of fertilizer without adding any additional water, especially the P, K, and micro-nutrients/bacteria/fungi that I think will help them with blossom health and fruit setting. I picked up some various dry fertilizers , but I haven't had a chance to try anything out yet. Any suggestions on how to boost the nutrition readily available to the plants quickly without adding more water to the container would certainly be appreciated!

When/If the growing medium dries out enough, I'll go back to watering regularly with the TFF fertilizer as planned.

As for the vines and foliage, the plants have grown thick and tall during this rainy time and most are around 5'-6' now. I plan to build a second tier of trellis tomorrow to accommodate the vine growth that has been continuing unabated. Not 100% sure how I'll design it yet since my first one was not the best design to build upon, but I feel I have to provide some additional support. I have a few ideas and after I MacGyver something, I will post what will likely be some pretty ridiculous-looking pics of the trough garden with the additional support when finished.

Fruit is beginning to set at various levels, some on the healthy-looking middle/upper clusters and some on the lowest clusters I had written off long ago based on their inactivity, unhealthy appearance, and the darkened or un-bloomed flowers. Very weird... but at least they didn't drop off and are starting to be productive now.

What fruit I have is growing slowly (maybe I'm just being impatient), and I guess that the many days of rain robbed the plants of the conditions needed for good fruit production. The rainy weather seems to have slowed down everything but the vegetative growth. I feel I am quite a bit behind where I would normally be with my old in-ground garden in terms of blossoms and fruit. Thanks to the great folks here at the forum who have responded to my questions, and from watching it first-hand, the experience has taught me many things to change for next year. Anyone contemplating a garden like this, I can definitely tell you a couple things NOT to do

I plan to do some pruning of what I believe to be wasted foliage branches, the ones that have grown inward and can't get sunlight anyway due to how I over-crowded my plants. The healthier foliage above is simply shading them out. I am trying to train the vines outward as much as possible, as opposed to straight up, to maximize sun exposure so I won't have to do as much of this down the road. I've seen this type of pruning suggested in several other threads and I think it makes sense. These branches seem to be where I find the most pests (but there aren't many pests in the garden in general), and I don't see any use for them if they provide no photosynthesis, are attractive hiding places for pests, and restrict airflow. It's humid and steamy as heck here after all this rain and then hot sun, and I going to guess that the improved airflow is pretty important right now.

Well, that just about summarizes what's going on with the first-year tomato trough experiment about a month after planting. Updated pics will follow tomorrow after the improvised support system is added. All thoughts, comments, or criticisms are always appreciated!

Thanks for reading and posting, and I wish you the best success with all of your gardens!

[wormgirl]

squirrel - glad you're ok! That flooding is amazing! I was just reading other posts from folks whos plants are waterlogged. Don't worry about fertilizing right now, plant wouldn't be able to take it up anyway. You could topdress with something and eventually it'll get in

Jenn

[squirrel789]

Thanks Jenn, but luckily I was unaffected by all the flooding, except for some tomato blossom/fruiting issues and a very soggy yard

The heat here the past few days has really dried out my growing mix, but I still have some curly tops and am trying to figure out why. I have also found a few less-than-perfect leaves (nothing too serious-looking or yellowing so far, luckily), and I plan to post those in the pest/disease forum to make sure its pest related and nothing that's a fungus/pathogen (fingers crossed).

I still find some tiny green aphids, a few white flies, and some other critters I can't identify. I might ask about these in the pest part of the forum as well. I go out and hunt them pretty much every night, taking care to keep the ladybugs/lacewings/spiders where they are. I manually remove the pesky or unknown bugs, unless a leaf has more than a few, then I clip it off and destroy it. I also have been sanitizing my clippers with an isopropyl alcohol dilution as an extra precaution against the spread of any diseases, given the constant rain, followed by the intense heat, and high humidity.

I finally stopped procrastinating and MacGyvered an upper extension to my trellis system. It may look rather ridiculous, but it gives me an extra foot or so on either side (width-wise) and a longer extension on the right side of the trough where the taller plants are growing. All together it's about 9' or so tall and works for how and where my plants are growing the tallest. As strange as it looks, the upper trellis is actually quite solid. I simply used some more of the same cheap folding cages I made the bottom part from mounted upside down, along with some cross-supports and a ton of zip ties and twine to stabilize it all together and secure it to the tall stakes and original trellis foundation.

Worried about fungal infection, I have tied some of the foliage branches to the support system and none of the foliage branches are touching (it's hard to tell in the pics though). That should help provide decent airflow, despite the over-crowded planting pattern.

I am finally getting a decent amount of fruit to set, although it's still kind of small compared to what I had hoped by this point. I'm fine with this however, because for awhile I was worried I wouldn't get any tomatoes at all . Again, they are difficult to see in these photos.

Obviously, the garden isn't quite what I envisioned at the start of the season, but given the moisture-retentive mix, the onslaught of rain, then the high heat and humidity, it isn't as big of a disaster as I feared it would be (so far anyway). I've learned so much that I want to do differently next year, and I don't feel quite so bad now about my first attempt at large container gardening. Thanks TV forum!

In the last of the pics below you can also see my Muncher cukes growing happily up the trellis I built, and they are blossoming like crazy. There also 2 jalapeno pepper plants in front of them that are healthy and are putting on plenty of blossoms and small peppers. I can't wait for grilled jalapeno poppers with a seasoned goat/cream cheese mixture wrapped in bacon (yum!).

The pics aren't great as they were taken this evening or late tonight after I was done with my nightly pest/disease hunting. I will take and post some better ones in the daylight as natural light pictures always tend to turn out better. But for what its worth, I said I'd post some pics so here they are (clearer ones to follow in a day or two).

Most important, a TON of thanks to all those who have posted responses with advice, comments, criticisms, etc. Please keep chiming in if you feel like it, it's always appreciated. I have learned many things from the kind folks here so far and plan to to do many things differently next year. I will keep this thread updated as the season progresses, but here's what I've got so far:

[fonseca]

Squirrel, I imagine you have a good number of green tomatoes growing in size by now.

I currently have one plant with a drooping top and curled leaves, and a few others with tops that look slightly wilted. I had it on several plants last year too. In my case I think it is due to sustained high temperatures and humidity followed by a sudden change in weather (2 days of cloudy skies and heavy thunderstorms). Around the same time I noticed this problem, one of my brandywine plants dropped every single flower that bloomed this past week when we went from nightly lows in the 80s for weeks to two nights at or below 60 degrees. Yet, another brandy 10' away in stock tank #1 (and from the same batch of seeds) didn't flinch and is putting out huge potato leaves bigger than my hand. Some of my pepper plants dropped flowers too.

Originally Posted by biscuitridge

FONSECA- can you share with us what soil mixture your using and also are you strictly organic?

Long post warning!

I am organic, but am not opposed to using a chemical spray to fight infestation when natural methods fail. Especially when the plants are in the vegetative stage.

Fortunately that hasn't been an issue for me since discovering cold-pressed Neem oil with 3000ppm Azadirachtin. It kills everything eating my plants and doesn't harm beneficials. The solvent-extracted stuff available in garden centers doesn't compare. The downside is I have to apply it weekly when there are active larva. Skip a week when they are still hatching or adults are laying eggs, and they do a lot of damage.

I used Malathion on all my fruiting plants in 2013 when I had a massive aphid infestation, and could not sufficiently control them. I did not use use it on lettuces or brassicas though. I try to minimize my exposure to such products.

My soilless mix and amendments are organic. I try to keep the worm population happy and reproducing, which means I need to maintain healthy soil bacteria. So organic fertilizer and compost tea. They also like a several inch layer of uncomposted spent coffee grounds as a top dressing before applying mulch. I don't often top-water, so when I pull back mulch I can see hundreds of holes in the coffee ground layer after a few weeks, along with a healthy amount of fungal activity, which I will break up if it looks excessive or becomes "tough". The worms are processing the nutrients and making them easily available to the plants. I believe this is beneficial to my system. I aspire to utilize the effective processes found in nature, based on my limited understanding of soil ecology and experience growing in the ground for two decades. Not sure if hobby or obsession...

Worms do a lot of the work for me, breaking down dead roots and creating easy paths for air and new roots, although my mix is pretty light and I can shove my arm down to the elbow with little effort at this time of year. When I pull up a bit of mulch on my stock tanks or buckets at night, I expect to see several worms retreating. If I don't see any, I often notice my plants will appear stressed a day or two later, meaning I screwed something up or conditions are bad. For instance, a nutrient tea that was too strong, or I haven't checked the reservoir in a few days and they blew through 20 G already. I think of my sub-irrigated containers as a system, and try to keep that system cycling.

I mixed my 4th batch this year on June 13th. This is a mix for sub-irrigated containers. If I was top-watering with drain holes underneath, I would include coco husk chips at 20-25% or some other material to avoid shipping cost, and possibly use less vermiculite.

I like to start with the centuries-old recipe of one third each animal, vegetable and mineral matter (such as: sedge peat, decomposed granite and rotted manure), which is supposed to age for several years, and then an equal portion loamy soil is added, sometimes including a small percentage of pigeon manure at that time.

I don't have years to wait, but I do add an equal portion of spent mix after the new batch has sat for a few weeks.

Ingredients:
3 cu ft canadian peat (compressed, ~6 cu ft expanded) - 1/3

4 cu ft coarse vermiculite + 2 cu ft coco fiber - 1/3

2.5 cu ft mushroom compost, 2 cu ft composted cow manure, .5 cu ft castings,
.5 cu ft composted chicken manure, .5 cu ft spent coffee grounds - 1/3

Amendments:
Dolomite lime - 6 C (could use 12 C if no other CaMg sources)
Alfalfa meal - 6 C
Fish bone meal - 6 C
Crab shell - 6 C
Kelp meal - 6 C
Neem seed meal - 6 C
Soft rock phosphate - 3 C
Azomite - 6 C
Glacial rock dust - 3 C
Rich Earth (humate) - 3 C
Diatomaceous earth (w/ 40% bentonite) - 3 C
MycoGrow soluble (watered in with compost tea after 1 week) - 1 oz

Makes ~18 cu ft / 134 G.

I consider this a hot mix especially with the composted chicken manure, and the alfalfa breaks down extremely fast. This mix will burn tomato seedlings planted in directly, more so if not aged. I added to this initial mix 100 G of year-old spent mix that was used continuously for different crops.

Most of went into 5 G buckets for pepper plants, and a few individual plants to see how they do, like roselle, ashi-taba (not supposed to have hyphen but plant name is censored on forum), malabar spinach and a few varieties of chard.

In the photo below are some of the products I have available to me locally. Items like neem seed, fish bone meal and glacial rock dust had to be ordered online. I am trying different fertilizers this year, so I will have to wait and see how things turn out.

[wormgirl]

Hadn't checked on this thread for awhile. Squirrel, your tomatoes and cukes look great considering your rain! Have you tried top dressing with compost or dry fert and letting the rain take it in? It's true that rain really interferes with fruit set. Your plants might be a little challenged in their container vs. the ground, but the weather this year might have done the same thing to in-ground plants.

fonseca - I would definitely consider you an advanced organic container gardener. I would say I'm intermediate. I'm very impressed by your soil mix and all the amendments. I mostly depend on liquid ferts, and feel lucky if a worm chooses to live in my container. Did you put worms in yours or did they just migrate in on their own? I wonder if they like your big troughs better than smaller containers?

What brand of Neem are you buying, fonseca?

I have made aerated compost tea in the past, and I think this really helps innoculate containers with soil life they would lack otherwise. Some people say organics in containers causes "boom and bust" cycles instead of going along evenly like in the soil. I think if we regularly add life it can really help. This year I haven't made any compost tea (got rid of all that stuff a couple moves ago) but I have been using Texas Tomato Food with mycos, which seems to be very helpful.

Here's this morning's harvest:

[fonseca]

Nice harvest! As you can see in my "harvest" pics below, I lost every single tomato in my main stock tank the previous weekend. 4 huge Brandywine, 10 Black Krim, 7-8 Cherokee Purple and maybe 16 black cherry that were the size of half dollar coins. What wasn't scattered about the yard was chewed into enough that they couldn't be salvaged. I haven't felt this mix of rage and sadness in a long time.

I leave water out in the hope that squirrels won't go for my tomatoes, and I use garlic/cayenne spray several times a month, but 2 squirrels managed to ruin my summer in 24 hours. Right now I'm contemplating squirrel stew in place of BLTs. If I wasn't in the city my yard would already be 100% squirrel-free. Those adorable little &^%%$#!

Originally Posted by wormgirl

What brand of Neem are you buying, fonseca?

I buy Neem Pro 100%, it's a small 8oz bottle but it lasts me a year. There are several other brands of cold-pressed neem oil that advertize 3000ppm azadirachtin as well. It stops anything eating my plants (obviously not squirrels...) within a few days, and when it's caterpillar season I use it maybe 2-4x a month.

I was big into permaculture about 10 years ago, and Australian permaculture had a large online presence, which is how I learned about wicking worm beds. All my ideas are stolen from down under. I have raised worms in the past, but the castings I buy usually have a good amount of eggs in them, and I assume worms are reproducing in my large containers.

At the end of the year it's hit or miss as to finding worms in containers smaller than 3 gallons, but they always survive in my 27 G and larger containers. I imagine heat drives them away when there's only a few gallons of soil.

The extent of my worm feeding is digging in some additional coffee grounds and dried, pulverized banana peels into the center of the tank mid-season. My mix is so compost-heavy that I don't need to feed. I haven't fed my plants yet this year either, or made any compost tea. Both are on my to do list! Now is a good time for a kelp foliar feed.

I don't think a "boom and bust" cycle would be a bad thing necessarily even if it is the case. That happens in the ground every time it rains. A quality AACT is especially beneficial when using slower release organic fertilizers. I like to think of it as "topping off" the microbial population. I don't brew fungal teas any more, I use a powdered fungal inoculant that also has trichoderma when rebuilding my soilless mix.

[GreenEyed Lady]

Originally Posted by bjbebs

Squirrel
I too am new to growing tomatoes in containers, but have over 50 years of in-ground
experience. I think 8 indeterminates per tank might be pushing it. Even if pruned and given ample vertical support you will end up with a jungle. I've included a picture of a stock tank I'm using this year. It holds 3 dwarf tomatoes, a determinate and a couple
ornamental peppers and flowers.
My soil mix is horse manure, leaves, partly finished compost and a bit of garden soil.
I'll top this off next year with the spent soil from the many containers I'm using for tomatoes and peppers.
The other picture is of a few maters in the ground. Think about the depth and width
of soil given each plant. I don't think this can be duplicated in a container. How you add nutrients to your container plants will determine how they produce.
The only ferts my garden has seen in 30 years is manure and cover crops.
I don't know what i'll use in the containers if they show a deficiency.
Keep us posted on how your crop is doing and how your managing fertilizer needs.

What are the half-round supports? I tried explaining a similar thing to hubby but apparently not in a way he could understand. Yours looks like maybe they are pre-formed, is that the case?

[bjbebs]

GreenEyed
They are U-shaped galvanized, welded wire tunnels used in AG applications. Usually used for feeding corn into cribs. They have many uses in the garden. I lay them on top of transplants to keep the rabbits out. The mesh is tight enough that they can't get in. Also put in places the deer like to enter. They are confused and generally move on. I'm not fond of fencing and try other methods of keeping the critters out. The best method I've found is to plant enough for them and me.