Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Have a great invention to help with gardening? Are you the self-reliant type that prefers Building It Yourself vs. buying it? Share and discuss your ideas and projects with other members.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 23, 2017   #61
dmforcier
Tomatovillian™
 
dmforcier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,505
Default

Quote:
All pool lighting in Fl has to be 12volt(via a transformer)Scary stuff.
Hmm? Scary how?
__________________


Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers


dmforcier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #62
kurt
Tomatovillian™
 
kurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Homestead, FL
Posts: 2,085
Default If you did not understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmforcier View Post
Hmm? Scary how?
If you read the article and did not comprehend fully it basically means people are getting electrocuted dead.
__________________
KURT
kurt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #63
dmforcier
Tomatovillian™
 
dmforcier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,505
Default

By 12VDC??

NO. The article - and there is very darn little info in it - embeds a YouTube video that says "a preliminary investigation points to disconnected wires in the pool house". What wires?? What circuit?? The text says that there are many instances of electrocution from pool lighting every year, but provides not a single solid example. It also never says that the low-voltage circuits are involved in any way.

The sense of the article is "hire us and pay our rates or end up dead." Believe what you want.
__________________


Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers



Last edited by dmforcier; January 23, 2017 at 04:20 PM.
dmforcier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #64
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 30,730
Default

I read through some of the reports and it all led to one thing improper grounding and bonding.

As a matter of fact to prove out my grounds and box's I installed yesterday I checked conductivity with my meter to the AC unit outside.
The reason you see the wire splices in the one box is because a special in line plug the ground had rotted away and was not continuous to the pump.
I refused to use it and spliced instead.

I wont work on or install anything without a ground.

That plug looked something like this but was 120 not 220/240.
The wire you see coming out the left side goes to a float switch.
The plug has male and female ends in it.
The switch closing makes the continuity between one side therefor completing the circuit.
When this happens the pump kicks on.
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
The dinner table is where we need to get acquainted not the battlefield.
I Seek The Truth.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #65
NewWestGardener
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 411
Default Please explain this:

worth, I'm following the thread with hugh interest. I used to love electrical circuits when we studied in grade 8, but now I have to review even the very basic stuff before I do anything.
I'm changing the basement light, but a bit puzzled by the wiring here. See the photo, how can the two black and one white go together? This the original wiring before I took it apart.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (165.8 KB, 56 views)
NewWestGardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #66
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 30,730
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewWestGardener View Post
worth, I'm following the thread with hugh interest. I used to love electrical circuits when we studied in grade 8, but now I have to review even the very basic stuff before I do anything.
I'm changing the basement light, but a bit puzzled by the wiring here. See the photo, how can the two black and one white go together? This the original wiring before I took it apart.
I have no idea without seeing the whole circuit.
Could they be going to a switch?
If there is a load like a light in series on one of the wires then this would work because there would be no short circuit.
The switch would be in parallel on the circuit.
But I just cant tell in the pictuer what everything is or what it used to be.
Could be that someone just didn't give a hoot what color they wired.
I found the same thing at the house I was at,
The white was hot and the black neutral and there wasn't a thing I could do about it being buried in the walls of the house.
Lord knows where they made the switch/change.
When I put the white and the black together the light came on.
These two wires went to a high level alarm switch in the tank.
That light hadn't worked in years.
When I put the white and black together the owner my friend was flabbergasted as to why it didn't trip the breaker.
So I drew out the circuit for him showing that load in series on one of the wires.
He is used to DC fire alarm circuits and was totally confused with house AC wiring.
Thus the reason I was there.
This has been my experience for years.
Very few electricians get it on supervised DC fire alarm circuits and very few fire alarm or control guys get it with AC wiring.
Can you give me more details?
Worth
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
The dinner table is where we need to get acquainted not the battlefield.
I Seek The Truth.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #67
PhilaGardener
Tomatovillian™
 
PhilaGardener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,326
Default

NewWestGardener, are there two switches that control that light?
(Like at the top and bottom of the basement stairs?)
PhilaGardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #68
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 30,730
Default

It could be tbat.
Was there a ligbt there before?
One thing I would doe if possible is get rid of that shallow box and put a deep one in.
Those things should be outlawed.
No Room to do anything.
Worth
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
The dinner table is where we need to get acquainted not the battlefield.
I Seek The Truth.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #69
dmforcier
Tomatovillian™
 
dmforcier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,505
Default

As Worth indicated, depending on the circuit it is legitimate to use any color wire. The black=hot and white=neutral arrangement is conventional, but not absolute. (Green must be ground, I think.)

However, best practice is that the installer "label" both ends of non-conventional color use. The 'best' way is to wrap some tape of the "correct" color around the insulation below the join. With white wires, the installer will often color the insulation with a black marker.

NWG, you can see that the installer used a white wire for hot. You could color it with a black marker as a reminder (especially if you disassemble to replace the box). Now you should be interested to find the other end and mark it, as its use as hot may not be obvious at the other end.
__________________


Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers


dmforcier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #70
NewWestGardener
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 411
Default

Thanks everyone for your interest to help.
Yes, there is a light, to the left, the white cover actually has a socket for the light in the middle.
And yes, there is a switch controlling the light, cables going out through a slot on the top part of the photo. Both were working before.
And there is also an outlet plug attached to a cable at the bottom, 5 feet away before entering the box. I think the incoming line is from the bottom, going out to the light and the switch, because sometimes when the outlet plug box is touched, the light goes intermittent, so I think that's the supply line. That's the assumption I hope is right. The plug was never used, actually never anchored, just floating near the ceiling pipes.
I removed the outlet plug and the extra able from the bottom slot, will move the cable to the outlet box directly to the lighting complex box.
The house was built in 1948, all things considered, actually solid construction in many ways, but the later renos and additions in the 90s were of much poorer quality. Not sure when this wiring was done.

Now back to the original box: the black should to the switch black, the switch black goes to the light, so why the white from the switch is pigtailed with the blacks? The neural whites are already capped.

Last edited by NewWestGardener; January 25, 2017 at 05:44 PM.
NewWestGardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #71
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 30,730
Default

Beats the tar out of me what it does without seeing everything.
Worth
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
The dinner table is where we need to get acquainted not the battlefield.
I Seek The Truth.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #72
dmforcier
Tomatovillian™
 
dmforcier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,505
Default

At a guess, I'd say that the white takes power to the switch and the paired black comes back from the switch. Thus white would be always hot and the paired black hot only when the switch is closed. This is common with a switch as you (usually) have only two choices. Bet if you pulled the switch you'd see white on one pole and black on the other.

Can you tell where the paired black is connected in the box? Bet it's to the light.

(BTW, all connections must be in a box. None of this 'wire nut splice behind the wallboard' stuff. Just FYI.)
__________________


Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers


dmforcier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #73
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bastrop Texas Lost Pines Forest.
Posts: 30,730
Default

Before I rewired my garage someone used speaker wiire to an outside flood light and open wire nut. s in the open rafters.
This is like idiot crap well like an idiot would do.
All of this stuff was ripped out rewired new boxes everywhere and sheet rocked in with insulation.
Then I inspected the rest of the house.
It seems as though that open garage was the only place.
Obviously a homeowner job.
Thus the reason for this thread.
If you want to know I have 24 receptacles of 120 vac and 2 240 receptacles in the garage alone.
All running on like 5 or 6 breakers for them alone.
No one in their right mind has this in a garage.
But by darn I can run stuff without tripping breakers.
Plus hot and cold running water in three different places.


Worth
__________________
Home of Cactus Flats Botanical Gardens.
The dinner table is where we need to get acquainted not the battlefield.
I Seek The Truth.
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #74
kurt
Tomatovillian™
 
kurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Homestead, FL
Posts: 2,085
Default

In some older installations they would use a wiring scheme to energize only the bottom outlet of a DUPLEX to energize that ONLY for a convenience lamp for night time controls.Also they would utilize a three way circuit to turn on/off for same device on control switches(i.e.combo fan/light,switch at doors same device.)Great info #69 reply.In the past when doing office space demolition 4-5 floors at a time in Miami high rises during the sweet,cocaine infused generated economy era we enjoyed,we would find all the things done wrong thru our version of forensic demolition.When unscrupulous,non union,untrained scumbags do electrical installations unchecked they will use any colored wire,they will ground the blackwire to a metal stud.So you get the picture.My two favorites:the hot energized wire run continous throughout all panels,junctions etc to facilitate the scumbags need for temporary power to complete his work.A sound practice if you remember to remove the wire upon completion of your install.If not the "next guy" might encounter some extra juice(shock/death) not needed at that time.Most memoriable a whole job by a scumbag outfit,All devices in,nice panel work,Id labels,and not one wire in any non existent conduit that was NOT in the walls.The contractor and his brother in law Miami Electrical Inspector are now in club Fed(it was a US government jobsite)the only thing they are ap "pealing" are potatos.IF you can start fresh with new wires,Check capacities/loads and confirm wire sizes.When working at homes I have me,tradesmen,anyone TURN OFF HOUSE PANEL MAIN before any work involving something that can KILL you.I know of three men in my life are DEAD now because of electricity.Lastest news is the replacement of the aluminum/copper alloy cables bus ducts and even outlet components that are in existing structures here in S Florida and our salt laden air is slowly disintegrating.We made a killing on the scrap prices of the junk material.We got the contract,removing bus ducts,Bus ducts are solid bars of metal used to conduct power (electicity)in a electric room for high rises from ground to penthouse roof tops.As a example the bars can be 1x6x15 foot,75%copper,25% alum 10 bars per floor 30 floors.We made a killing.
__________________
KURT
kurt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #75
dmforcier
Tomatovillian™
 
dmforcier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,505
Default

My uncle Harold was a 40 year master electrician. He died in his own attic, cutting into a live lead.

I tend to be careful. First, understand what's going on if you can. Then check that the hots that you think are controlled by the breaker really are. Compared to a professional electrician I work slow. But I've done a lot of work and I'm still here.


Never seen inside a bus duct. (I've done next to no commercial work.) Was the problem that the busbar alloy was corroding?
__________________


Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers


dmforcier is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:33 PM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2017 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★