Leaf diagnosis needed

[b54red]

Anne, you could have Gray Mold on that Black Krim or possibly early fusarium. If you spray the plant with the bleach solution I recommend in other posts you will quickly find out if it is a fungal disease because any infected leaves will start withering up in a day or two. If it is Gray Mold which likes to start on black varieties for some reason then it will spread to others soon.

Bill

[z_willus_d]

Hi Anne, I've been following your thread here. I believe I'm learning a lot about Mg deficiency. Ivan, you've mentioned pH as being a large factor in nutrient uptake, which I knew about. I'd like to know your details on the affect of pH on Mg uptake in the soil from your opinion. I've seen charts that graph pH against availability of different micro/macro nutrients, and I was surprised to see that not all nutrients prefer the same range pH. So we have to pick the sweet spot.

Thanks all.
-naysen

[aclum]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the bleach suggestion ... I may just give it a try later tonight or early in the morning - guess it wouldn't hurt to try it. Whatever hasn't really spread, although a few other plants have some "crispy" leaf tips. The plants are all in an area that gets a lot of intense sun (I adjusted my sun shades today to give them better coverage) and I strongly suspect that it's just sun damage. But I am keeping my eyes on things and will try the bleach - esp. if I see any "spread."

Hi Naysen,

Yeah, lots of interesting stuff being discussed and yours is a very good question! I'm also wondering how harvesting fruit early affects the plant. To me, it seems that with less fruit the leaves will end up with more nutrients. I've had squirrels eating my ripe fruit, so on the advice of Bill and others (on another thread), I've been picking the tomatoes as they start changing color. My first "roundup" two days ago netted 32# of tomatoes, yesterday, I got 6 lbs 3 oz, and today I picked 8 lbs 9 oz. Seems like this much of a "load" off the plants must make some difference in the whole nutrient balance thing.....

I'm hoping Ivan might chime in on this one.

Raybo,

That was my first thought as well: I guess I should have added Epsom salts at plant out!

Ivan,

On the pH I gave, I just used some pH test strips and a rapitest (sp?) probe that I had misplaced the probe cleaning pad for, so I'm not terribly sure how accurate the test was. But, at least for the sake of discussion here in regards to my problem, let's assume 7-7.2.

Thanks everyone for all the help and ideas!
Anne

[Paradajz]

hi, folks.

oh no, you won't get me to talk osmosis, diffusion, active and passive nutrients transport theories, Liebig's law, bla bla bla bla and other similar stuff here... i wouldn't finish in a life time with my standard speed and post's length

just kidding, i'll see to post some answers tomorrow, magnesium is actually one of the easiest to explain.

br,
ivan

[z_willus_d]

Thanks Ivan, looking forward to it.

Anne, I used to have squirrels in droves at my "downtown" Sacramento home (before moving to the suburbs here). They destroyed every herb I tried growing. BTW, herbs were what got me into gardening years back. The little rodents would just dig out everything I planted. With the tomatoes, I found that fencing off the raised beds was somehow enough of a deterrent for them. They had no problems dancing 40' up on the power-lines, but for some reason my chicken-wire fencing was a feat to great.

Anyway, now I have to deal with birds. They are everywhere and of all kinds living in the greenbelt my house backs into. I managed to harvest two almost ripe fruit before the onslaught has caught up with me. They've now completely eaten three decent sized fruit, and they've pecked away chunks of over half of my half-blushed other fruit. I even noticed a few fruits that have sun scald, which lightens them, that they've been nice enough to peck into. So, I'm forced to pick the fruit at the first sign of color and try to ripen inside. It's a real bummer because I suspect the taste could be affected somewhat.

They were an issue last year, but not to this degree, and later in the season. I'm open to ideas on how to deal with birds. They've had more of my produce than I have, no kidding!

I hope the squirrels aren't as bad for you.

Good luck!
-naysen

[aclum]

Hi Naysen,

Well, if it's not one thing it's another. I guess the greenbelt might be sort of a mixed blessing. Really sorry to hear about your bird problem. We've sort of been discussing my creature eating tomato problem on the "oops and yikes" thread and, on the basis of that, I've put up CD's to try and scare away the birds (if they're the culprit - I do have one or two suspicious mocking birds around). But I highly suspect the squirrels so have been picking at first blush, too. It's sort of amazing to me how fast they've been ripening up in the house. (Although these days, everything seems to be going faster - you'll understand when you get to be my age ). Think I need to toss a bunch more house-ripened fruit into the freezer today or otherwise start processing some. We've already eaten a ton of tomatoes fresh so I need to get cooking with some.

BTW, I was thinking back to Lycoperson's (?) comments on another thread about pruning plants and pruning fruit from clusters as well. Picking at first blush as we are, would basically be the same thing I think (or very similar). Now I'm trying to remember WHY he said to cull the fruit on the clusters LOL!!

Anne

[bower]

Hmmm, very interesting. I have very similar looking leaf troubles, but not only on the lower leaves. One plant - Kimberley - is affected all over. The chlorotic spots in this case are very close to the main veins shown in pictures below. Some lower leaves are still looking fine, so it doesn't fit the profile for Mg deficiency (thank you for the helpful details, Ivan).

Last week I found a couple of very brightly striped lower leaves on another plant, like Raybo's picture, which I removed. Now I'm seeing some dappling of pale chlorotic spots on a number of the plants, mostly on a lower or middle leaf, not all around one level.

I've noticed in the past that light chlorotic spots would sometimes appear on the leaves during cold stress, but disappear again after better conditions returned. I wonder if cold can also inhibit uptake of magnesium or zinc (very nice photo of the zinc deficiency, Ami). This wouldn't explain Kimberley's condition, since it wasn't cold when it started.

Was also reading this morning about tomato chlorosis virus, which looks similar to the more extreme condition, spread by whiteflies.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/emergingviruses.htm
The leaf troubles appeared just after a week of emergency reno's on the greenhouse, when it was open to small pests and also spores from the area, in unseasonal warm and humid weather. The same thing or similar is affecting my pepper plants in the house, too, pretty severe chlorosis appearing almost overnight.

[Paradajz]

hi again.

Anne,

as for your question about kitchen ripening- i personally prefer my toms ripen where they started and should finish. anyway, some taste definitely gets lost that way.
if i understood it correctly and your question was if such a procedure might help with issues such as magnesium deficiency, the answer is absolutely no. picking the fruits earlier will preserve some quantity of almost all nutrients, but above all potassium which is in it's prime time when fruits start changing color. theoretically, such a process could even make a Mg deficient situation worse- by preserving significant quantities of potassium which is the oldest Mg antagonist

as for your soil analysis and PH, sounds generally ok to me, the only extraordinary issue being boron on the excess side- it's probably the most seldom found mineral in plants growing
more precisely, PH 7.2 ( uncertain figure, i'll explain later ) is ok with magnesium, slightly alkaline soils shouldn't be a cause of Mg deficiency. but, on the other hand, such soils usually stand for calcium sufficient and therefore shouldn't exhibit blossom end rot, which makes your case of Mg deficiency further more complicated. just kidding, it actually points out that potassium could be the cause there- it's an antagonist for both magnesium and calcium so it could definitely cause both a magnesium deficiency and a calcium deficiency in an alkaline soil.
but then again, the boron matter could have played it's part with the calcium issue... BELIEVE ME, this could be a never- ending story
but the point is: if you estimate your plants and yields doing just fine don't worry and don't make any significant changes in future.
the magnesium issue there isn't anything that serious and it's a quite common thing that might have come from a number ( a huge one ) of reasons. if it eventually gets seriously worse ( defoliation above the first fruit branch, limited fruit size ) just do a couple of foliar treatments with an adequate Mg fert, it'll be ok. adding any serious quantities of Mg to your soil at such a specific moment in plant cycle ( yields ) might compromise the uptake of potassium which could for it's part quite compromise the yields.

so, basically, my recommendations to you:
* do another soil analysis after the season is over, it should be done once in a 2-3 years period at least.
* see if you can test the '' real PH'' it's actually a test of soil solution, which includes water that you use and should be done at a number of places, plant's root area especially.
* pay attention to the boron thing, without kidding this time- it's really the rarest of all elements, and in my experience the excess usually happens out of two reasons: increased water salinity or/and stuff that municipal services add to waste water, which both isn't very desirable in a garden.
* if you wanted a serious analysis of the soil in your garden and a fertilization plan than you wouldn't be a home gardener in other words, do not take anyone's opinion on this as ultimately correct, nobody knows your place and your plants better than you. for a commercial grower it's something else- a tissue analysis of the plants would need to be done at the end of season with a special attention to N:K ratio, soil solution analysis, average season rain amounts, drainage capability of the soil, humus percentage, bla bla bla bla... but only then a serious and adequate recommendation could be given.
* it is always my advice to people that N,P,K are the elements which can be fairly safely estimated and added in a fertilization process on the basis of their knowledge and experience ( just follow a total 2:1:3 ratio for the whole tomato season rule ), while the secondary macros ( Mg, S, Ca ) and especially micros ( Cu, Zn, B, Mn, etc.... ) are something quite different and people shouldn't play games with it- such games usually end in dis- balances which are a total headache to resolve later, if possible to resolve it at all.
* add some humus content to your soil and follow your plants cycle a bit more precisely- adding a universal ( e.g. 18-18-21 ) fert prior to planting is ok, but far better results can be achieved if you configure it a bit more differently ( based on plant's specific needs in particular periods of it's life cycle ): B+P mild foliar at 4- leafs seedling stage ( makes wonders with future plant development, strength, flowering and yields ), P on planting, universal in the intensive growth phase, K when fruits start changing color.
this is a simply given general rule in tomato growing, all the other subject- related specific stuff such as weather, water, rain, temperatures.... somewhere else and later, someone will really shoot me for these short posts one day

once again, i talked to much, sorry all. more boring stuff tomorrow, can't hold my eyes open.

br,
ivan

[Paradajz]

p.s.

hi, Naysen,

for now just the info on a preferable soil PH for tomato growing- it's ideally 6.8, but i would really love to meet a fellow who can achieve this in the whole cycle

bower,

could you post some overall photos of affected plants, of plant's top area ( new growth ) and other ( back ) side of the leafs with chlorosis?
also, can you estimate the amount of rainfall in the last couple of weeks, and finally, did you use any ferts there lately?

good night, all.

[bower]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

p.s.

hi, Naysen,

for now just the info on a preferable soil PH for tomato growing- it's ideally 6.8, but i would really love to meet a fellow who can achieve this in the whole cycle

bower,

could you post some overall photos of affected plants, of plant's top area ( new growth ) and other ( back ) side of the leafs with chlorosis?
also, can you estimate the amount of rainfall in the last couple of weeks, and finally, did you use any ferts there lately?

good night, all.

Ivan,
Pictures of the top (curled and spotty) and bottom leaves (not affected) and the back side of leaf and detail are attached below. Thanks to your insightful question, I see there are some white bumps present on the underside vein, maybe insect eggs?
The weather has been unseasonably warm and dry but also humid and windy in the week before this damage appeared, although it has been rainy and cold on occasion (including the last three days). The plants are in a greenhouse so not directly affected by rainfall. The greenhouse was open though, for about a week during the warm and windy weather, while we were doing emergency renovations (carpenter ants had made a nest and were eating the structure.) Small pests like blackflies certainly got in (nasty biters!), and plant pests may have as well. The sudden chlorosis appeared on peppers also during the construction and warm weather - spores could have blown in through the window screen, or pests entered by the open doors.
As for chemicals in the air due to construction, the lumber was pretreated with linseed oil and a small amount used afterwards, and the structure was sealed with silicone which gives off only some mild acetic acid fumes.
Kimberley and other plants in growbags were bunched together during the construction which finished May 30, so I didn't see the damage until I moved them afterwards. 6 days ago on June 4, I gave Kimberley and other growbag plants some GreenEarth fertilizer 4-6-8 and a top dressing of compost.
TIA, your expert advice will be much appreciated!

[aclum]

Wow, Ivan, thanks for the excellent, thorough reply!!! I really do appreciate it and will take your advice.

On the B issue. My original lab test showed 83 ppm of B and a pH of 8.6!! I called the lab and they said they didn't think the B level would be a problem at that level. In any event, the soil test was done in Feb 2008 and I would expect a lot of the boron to have leached out by now. The compost is used extensively by commercial growers in the area and is entirely composted greenwaste - no municipal water or sewage processing stuff. I'd forgotten to mention it, but a product I have used in my gardens (and am sure many others in our area use too) is Terro Ant Killer granules you water into the soil. Its active ingredient is sodium tetrabromate, decahydrate 5.4% No need to comment (unless you think you need to alert me to some dangerous situation), as I agree it would be a never ending story <g>. Just thought I'd mention it now as a point of interest.

At the moment, I'm VERY satisfied with my production so I'll just proceed as I have been - but will try to leave the fruit on the vines a bit longer unless the squirrels and birds start eating them again.

Thanks again for your help (and hope you're not being affected by all the horrible flooding in central Europe!).

Anne

[Paradajz]

hi, Anne,

thanks for your kind concerns.
BTW, the name of my country in our language is ''Crna Gora'' which translates as ''Black Mountain'', and that's actually exactly what it is- quite a number of mountains emerging directly from the Adriatic Sea ( not black, thank God, that part of the name was attributed to us by the Ottomans who waged wars on us for like 500 years and brought some black memories home ).
anyway, those mountains, black or green, keep us safe from the flooding which really shakes central Europe these days, although i have to notice that it's definitely a year or disastrous weather changes even here.

as for your garden, i would just add a recommendation to also do soil and water salinity and chloride presence test if possible.

br,
ivan

[Paradajz]

hi, bower,

again- no need to thank me, i'm enjoying my time here. i don't know about USA but you would be surprised how funny people tend to look at someone who ( over )deeply loves plants around here. so i am basically enjoying a vacation which i spend among similar people at this nice place.

as for your plants i'm pretty certain that there are 3 issues there:

1.
aphids of some sort, photo 1 in your first post ( nice example of a distinctive random( without a clear pattern ) chlorosis right next to the central vein, almost always a pointer to check for insects rather than anything else ).
in my experience you should be the one to decide whether to treat it or not, long time ago i learned that the same species of insects can be a totally different issue in different areas and conditions, so some general standards ( e.g., in our agricultural practice there is a standard that green aphids should be treated when the egg- count for a m2 is over 10 ) shouldn't be followed with it.
anyway, doesn't look like anything serious to me

2.
occasional appearance of magnesium deficiency signs ( photo 2 in your first post ).
definitely doesn't appear as anything serious, just monitor it closely.

3.
your peppers are what bugs me
although the visual appearance can definitely suit magnesium deficiency with it too, and although the photos are a bit unclear, and although the description and plant's sections of it's appearance suit magnesium deficiency symptoms better, i feel ( not judge ) an iron deficiency there.
that's why i asked about the rainfall amount- in practice there are 2 most common causes for an acute iron deficiency with plants: heavy rains and chemical pollution ( maybe the term '' over saturation of some chemical elements'' would be more suitable here, but i'm a bit short with English here ).
judging from your description i believe that those plants were exposed to sufficient chemicals influence ( helped by high temps ) to ''lock'' iron nutrient to them. this would mean that most probably there is a sufficient iron amount in the soil but it's locked and unavailable to your plants.
since it is an opinion i cannot be sure with ( as a matter of facts, typical iron deficiency symptoms start with interveinal chlorosis of the youngest leafs ) based on the details we got here, i would recommend you to try the following procedure:
* a mixture of iron foliar fert + humic acid/ vitamins/ seaweed ( any product of the kind would do, especially if it labels ''betaines'' ( one of the seaweed chormones ) included ) ; beneficial bacteria drench fert ( any product, especially if it states that ''phosphorus mineralisation bacteria strains'' are included ) at the same time ;
* apply those to a couple of affected plants and see what happens: in 24-72h the veins of those leafs should start visibly appearing greener and wider and a process of ''de- chlorosis-ation'' should start, if the diagnosis is correct.
* if it doesn't do it in 4-5 days call someone for help

br,
ivan

[Paradajz]

hi, Naysen,

about the PH subject: ooooh, it's so complex that you definitely shouldn't ask a fellow who writes zillion- miles long posts about it

just some simple stuff:

* don't take those charts of PH effect on particular nutrients as a ruling standard, it's just a starting point absolutely insufficient to make any conclusions from it. the complexity of the issue is that an enormous number of variable factors will also directly influence the process of nutrients uptake of a plant along with PH status- stuff like weather, water, chemicals, air, the plant itself- this is a never ending list.
e.g., on magnesium: it's general optimal availability to a plant is in 6.4+ PH level, any lower makes it harder for a plant to consume it. in other words, even slightly acidic soil could create a problem, while it excellently tolerates slightly alkaline ones. but, in practical reality, a huge percentage of alkaline soils is alkaline because of a high presence of calcium, which for it's part compromises the uptake of magnesium ( antagonists- those two directly compete one another for the uptake ). eventually, in such a case we could have a situation where the problems with magnesium actually origin from an alkaline soil, which by a definition should be very suitable for it?! and just imagine what kind of additional influence would be done by a heavy amount of PH- low rainfall to this equation...
there is a trillion zillions of such details in nutrient availability and uptake by plants, that's why i so hardly try to escape the issue. most commonly, symptoms of affected plants and precise details on significant variable factors should do so we can determine the problem and it's origin ( which is the actually important thing there ), but quite often it's not possible without some serious additional analysis, or it's at least not that easy.

* maybe the easiest way for me would be to describe how i deal with my constant magnesium deficient status ( originating from PH level 6 of the soil, which i prefer because i add significant amounts of humus and peat moss to it every year, with the intention to revive a poor piece of clayish land which i bought along with a house some 8 years ago ):
- as first, i'm aware that it will appear with the start of intensive vegetation and serious fruit setting beginning; magnesium is a mineral with the most significant function as an mayor integral part of chlorophyll, and it's only natural that the deficiency will start appearing visible at that specific stage.
- i do approx. 80% of ferts organic, but for a starter ( 5-7 days after planting to the garden ) fert i use a crystal complex ( macros + micros water soluble ) NPK 15-30-15 + 2.4Mg ; this helps with magnesium significantly, and the formula is just perfect, with no danger of creating a dis- balace ; ( as a matter of facts, for those of you who also enjoy growing flowering plants, try to find such fert and use a mild solution drench on your plants once a week, see what happens and thank me later )
- on the other side, with fungicides i always go slowly and play safe ( organics- copper, mancozeb, propineb, mixture combinations ) and keep an ''open spot'' for a very specific one- trifloxystrobin. this one is specific because of it's mild nature ( we talked about it on the other thread ), but it is also highly stimulative to the plant's photosynthesis. eventually, when symptoms of magnesium deficiency start appearing ( usually when first fruits are at some 25% of it's final size ), i simply do a foliar with an adequate Mg fert, and then some 3-4 days later i spray the fungicide. with such a procedure i aim for the following:
- the foliar treatment will not mess with my soil and create a potential dis- balancing starter effect
- the fungicide which stimulates photosynthesis comes after the prior fert application have added some new chlorophyll energy to my plants, which eventually creates a double effect- disease protection + healing the Mg deficiency but with an additional significant energy boost to the plants, which usually ends up with some 10-15% higher yields.

and, just for info, although i speak much of pesticides around here, i am not a ''chemo- maniac'' who feeds his family consisting of a loved wife and adored 2 years old father's daughter with fungicides, the above mentioned systemic treatment is usually the third application in the period of 45-60 in- ground days of my plants. as a comparison i can say that an average European farmer completes this cycle of a tomato with approx. 5-6 applications of much worse stuff
but, on the other hand, i myself would never listen to me on the subject since the system of tomato growing which i apply is to specific and took me 15+ years to develop so i could spend 5 of using it

ok, time to go, hope this might help you somehow,

br,
ivan

[bower]

Ivan,
I'm glad you are enjoying this place, all of us plant lovers feel the same!

About the peppers, you know, there is a possible cause of iron deficiency that I hadn't considered. They're in quite small pots indoors, so no rainfall. But the well water here is filtered because of high manganese, among other things (iron too!). Possibly a malfunction in the filter, could cause manganese toxicity and produce those iron deficiency symptoms. I should get the water tested. Perhaps it would help if I collect some rainwater for them instead.
The peppers were given a balanced liquid fertilizer a couple of days after the chlorosis appeared (fish emulsion/blackstrap solution) to see if it might be a nitrogen deficiency. Possibly I overwatered as well, and in response they dropped a few peppers, and the leaves didn't improve. So I bought epsom salts and gave them some of that, about a week later (1 tsp in two liters of water). After a couple of days, some of them set more peppers, a couple started to ripen their fruit, but improvement of the leaf condition is minimal after 4 days.
I have various forms of kelp available (home made), so I will try that. But if the soil is now loaded with manganese, the best thing may be to move them outdoors or into large containers with fresh soil.
Below are a couple of pictures of leaf spots on the peppers before and after the chlorosis, and some of the bronzy colour on the worst lower leaves.

Originally Posted by Paradajz

hi, bower,

again- no need to thank me, i'm enjoying my time here. i don't know about USA but you would be surprised how funny people tend to look at someone who ( over )deeply loves plants around here. so i am basically enjoying a vacation which i spend among similar people at this nice place.

as for your plants i'm pretty certain that there are 3 issues there:

1.
aphids of some sort, photo 1 in your first post ( nice example of a distinctive random( without a clear pattern ) chlorosis right next to the central vein, almost always a pointer to check for insects rather than anything else ).
in my experience you should be the one to decide whether to treat it or not, long time ago i learned that the same species of insects can be a totally different issue in different areas and conditions, so some general standards ( e.g., in our agricultural practice there is a standard that green aphids should be treated when the egg- count for a m2 is over 10 ) shouldn't be followed with it.
anyway, doesn't look like anything serious to me

2.
occasional appearance of magnesium deficiency signs ( photo 2 in your first post ).
definitely doesn't appear as anything serious, just monitor it closely.

3.
your peppers are what bugs me
although the visual appearance can definitely suit magnesium deficiency with it too, and although the photos are a bit unclear, and although the description and plant's sections of it's appearance suit magnesium deficiency symptoms better, i feel ( not judge ) an iron deficiency there.
that's why i asked about the rainfall amount- in practice there are 2 most common causes for an acute iron deficiency with plants: heavy rains and chemical pollution ( maybe the term '' over saturation of some chemical elements'' would be more suitable here, but i'm a bit short with English here ).
judging from your description i believe that those plants were exposed to sufficient chemicals influence ( helped by high temps ) to ''lock'' iron nutrient to them. this would mean that most probably there is a sufficient iron amount in the soil but it's locked and unavailable to your plants.
since it is an opinion i cannot be sure with ( as a matter of facts, typical iron deficiency symptoms start with interveinal chlorosis of the youngest leafs ) based on the details we got here, i would recommend you to try the following procedure:
* a mixture of iron foliar fert + humic acid/ vitamins/ seaweed ( any product of the kind would do, especially if it labels ''betaines'' ( one of the seaweed chormones ) included ) ; beneficial bacteria drench fert ( any product, especially if it states that ''phosphorus mineralisation bacteria strains'' are included ) at the same time ;
* apply those to a couple of affected plants and see what happens: in 24-72h the veins of those leafs should start visibly appearing greener and wider and a process of ''de- chlorosis-ation'' should start, if the diagnosis is correct.
* if it doesn't do it in 4-5 days call someone for help

br,
ivan