Seedling leaf changes and death

[Delerium]

Originally Posted by b54red

Anne you won't find a bigger fan of DE in seed starting than me but it has real drawbacks when it is used when trying to harden off seedlings. I have used it successfully but I have also run into problems with it when it was too hot and it dried out too much. I swear it looks almost like it can actually suck the life out of the plant if it dries out completely where as the plants seem to recover fine when the medium is potting soil. I find using larger containers of DE much more difficult to manage than when I am using it for seed starting because they don't bottom water as well as small containers of DE and it is hard to tell if the DE is too dry once the surface gets a little algae stain on it.

Bill

Bill Actually my experience with DE and tomato plants is totally opposite to yours. I find that transplanting seedlings from DE indoors to outdoors is quicker and less stressful on the plants. I even skip hardening off/potting up and just plant them directly and they do just fine (i know it sounds like bs). You probably have seen how small my transplants were when i actually planted them outdoors and I've found out that growing seedlings in DE cuts out so much of the hassle i usually would have to deal with plants that have been grown regular seed starting mediums. Could it be because i grow my plants like tomato clones (removing the roots etc) - i dunno to be honest.. As a matter of fact I've had plants where the DE has completely dried out indoors (and the tomato plants) look like they are practically dead (usually all the spare grafts i have no room for) come right back to life as soon as i plant them out (first soak the soil) then plant the seedling.

Anne should post some pictures.

[aclum]

YEA!! It appears that I finally figured out how to post photos!!

I'll be posting a photo of a couple of my remaining sickly tomatoes (have tossed most of them). The leaves seem to change shape, leaves "going spiky" as is the case of the BTD on the left or curly - particularly at the top - as sort of shown on the DDR on the right. Also you can just see the leaf stems dying off. Not shown on these examples, but in larger plants that were affected, with a larger leaf surface, the leaves went from a normal or dark green to a faded bronzed tone. Symptoms varied from plant to plant.

BTW, I placed an old (I think redwood, but maybe cedar) fence board behind the plants - thought the grain pattern so enlarged was really interesting.

Thanks Bill and Delerium for sharing your experiences with DE. Very thought provoking - something I need to mull over for a while. I should remind people that not all of my plants are affected and a bunch of gone successfully directly from their DE filled potting container directly to the garden. Also worth noting, I had plants at all different stages of development in the greenhouse and maybe they were more susceptible to whatever caused the problem at a particular stage of growth. I'm afraid I didn't keep any exact records, so I can't draw any conclusions about this though.

Well, hope the photo helps. I KNOW I've seen photos on the web of similarly afflicted plants (although I haven't be able to relocate them so far), and it seems like something an expert could identify immediately.

Anne

[Delerium]

Anne i have a suggestion. Take those plants out and plant them in regular potting mix. I noticed something similar like this when i first started playing around with DE in 1/2 gal containers - it started to yellow (could be to much water?). Like Bill stated i think in his previous post as the container cups get bigger its harder to maintain them in DE. The max size I used for containers for seedlings is 4 inch pots with the bottom tray with water filled at time of watering with 1/4 strength of fertilizer per 1 gal of water. Usually about half of that gal gets used up to fill the bottom tray for 30 something plants if i can remember correctly. Once you water it you back off till the bottom tray is completely dry - then re-water the bottom tray with same 1/4 strength fertilizer per gal and pour the half gal back in to the tray and repeat.

I think DE has more problems if the containers are to tall (like your clear solo cups) - doesn't work as good as square pots. And in your case you could be over fertilizing and over watering due to the volume of DE in the cup. I would use smaller containers. If these are plants you can sacrifice i suggest planting them in your soil mix (promix or whatever potting mix you use). I bet it will recover and come back life.

With DE you have to treat your plants like your growing in hydroponics. You don't have to worry so much about pot size or plants being root bound like you do with the regular potting mixes etc as you can easily break up the DE and plant it. But i just wanted to show you how big these plants are just in 4 inch pots and look how healthy they are . Transplanting them is not a problem where as this would be a serious problem with soil mix.

[aclum]

Hi Delerium,

Thanks for the very detailed suggestions!! I'll give them a try. Your plants look just gorgeous. Most of my are pretty pitiful this year (at least so far). I planted out a bunch of pretty small ones a while back and they got really whipped around by the wind and aren't looking so hot at the moment. Hoping that they perk up before too long - with better care and better weather!

Anne

[aclum]

Hi Again,

Well, my woes continue as several of the seedlings I planted out March 15 are having problems. The beds were turning out great tomatoes at the end of last season and I didn't do any new amendments for this new season. Beds are covered with perforated silver mulch from Johnny's. They're set up for drip, but so far this year I've mainly done hand watering.

I think the photos speak for themselves although one thing you can't tell from the photos is that the leaves of the afflicted plants seem to be getting less supple. They're not quite brittle, but they are definitely getting a bit more rigid and, in some cases, "coarser" looking. The BTD in the garden, is a different plant from the BTD shown in the cup previously. All of the plants in the photos looked good before setting out in the garden (although on the small side).

My younger back-ups look much better, btw. The plants with an * after their name are grafted on RST-04-105 rootstock.

Aside from whatever disease or nutrient problems the plants have, some of them just seem stunted in general. The thread in the Seed Starting forum on "can you have too much light' got me thinking that I may have actually caused the stunting by too much light at the very young seedling stage. For grafting my rootstock and scions were mismatched in size and, in an effort to try and speed up the growth of some, I had them under some very close LED lights. They were like inches away and I've read since they should be more like a meter away! Just one more thing to take inconsideration.

Anyway, here are the photos of some of the sick plants. Any more ideas on what might be going on?

Hum..... can't seem to get the photos to download this time. Will go ahead and send this so I don't lose the message. In the meantime, I'll figure out the photo problem and try to get the new photos posted in a few minutes.

Anne

[aclum]

OK - here are 2 of the photos. You can see how the leaves and stems are twisting and the leaves are getting coarser.

Anne

[Heritage]

Hi Anne,

That looks like a bad infestation of russet mites (or possibly thrips). Check the growing tips with a 10x quality magnifying glass and you should see very small wedge-shaped greenish insects. They are sometimes very difficult to see, even with magnification.

Best of luck,
Steve

[Heritage]

btw... once you verify russet mites, spray with a wettable sulfur pesticide and NOT an oil (like Neem) -because you shouldn't use them within a few weeks of each other.

[Cole_Robbie]

I bought some composted manure on clearance last year that had either herbicide residue in it, or had one of its micro elements off the chart. Both problems will cause similar gnarled, twisted, deformed growth.

Here is the top of one of those plants:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps28e9fee4.jpg

I hope I'm wrong, but that is what the twisted growth in those pics reminds me of.

[aclum]

Hi Steve and Cole,

Thanks for the info.

I looked at a couple of leaves with my (cheap) 20-40X loupe and think I saw evidence of the russet mites. I'll see if I can get some of the wettable sulfur tomorrow. For some reason, I couldn't get all of my photos to post - but some of the leaves are showing signs of bronzing and others have had distinct sort of mauvish-taupish-tannish spots or edging around the lower portion of the leaf.

Looking at the leaves with a loupe, I think I saw some of the translucent stages of the mites on some of the leaves and the egg or pupae (??) stage (round brownish-tan grain shaped) on others. Also some had smudge like areas made up of tiny-tiny black dots (under the 40X loupe) on some of the leaves.

I have to agree with you, Cole, that my plants do seem similar to your herbicide damaged plant. The lawn mowing guys used some roundup outside the beds last spring that didn't affect the plants in the bed at all and no roundup since then, so I'd tend to rule out herbicide damage at this point. It is possible that a neighbor used it on a windy day without telling me, I suppose.

I'm sort of thinking that, at this stage, I should maybe just yank out the most severely afflicted plants and replace them with back-ups - possibly of a different variety while I start new seeds for the "lost" varieties. Should I apply the sulfur to as yet unaffected plants as a preventative?

Thanks!
Anne

[rwsacto]

Anne,

Hold white paper under the leaves and then tap. look at the tiny spots on the paper with your loupe. If they start crawling.....

I would apply preventative to all your plants. Several times to kill the next generations.

Good Luck,
Rick

[aclum]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the tip! I'll go outside and do that once the wind dies down. BTW, looks it may actually rain a bit. If it does, I imagine you might be having some rain up your way too .

Anne

[Heritage]

Anne,

Yes, I would spray any/all of your plants since it is likely they all have russet mites to varying degrees. Be sure to follow label directions for application temps. If you have healthy backups then I would pull the worst looking plants and replace them. The plants in your photos look like they are in for a long recovery time (possibly they would never recover fully).

With such a huge infestation you might also consider beneficials to control them. I think Cole_Robbie might be able to make recommendations.

Good luck!
Steve

[aclum]

Hi,

I sprayed the plants with Bonide sulfur and flushed out the DE to try and get rid of the excess fertilizer. Most of the plants have improved, but I'm still getting some "disease" progression in some of the plants. I'm attaching a photo of one of my grafted Flaschettos that's exhibiting the leaf deformation to a pretty extreme degree.

As some of you might know, I've also got a thread going on stunting. I was looking up stunting last night and came across a bunch of links to tomato bushy stunt. Here's one link:

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r783102411.html

Another article description (from a google search) mentioned it being spread by grafting - as well as other mechanisms. The Flaschetto in the photo happens to be grafted, but I do have other affected plants that weren't grafted. The Tomato Bushy Stunt Disease seems VERY remote, but just thought I'd throw the idea out there. Whatever it is, sure is strange. Don't know if you can make it out in the photo, but there are little suckers forming at every leaf/stem ★★★★★★★★. Odd.....

I think I'm dealing with several different problems as there's extreme variation from plant to plant (of those affected).

So any additional idea on what might be going on?

Thanks,
Anne

[Heritage]

Anne,

Going from your first photos I would have said 95% chance of russet mites, and 5% chance of a virus. However, with this latest photo, I'm seeing the odds inch more towards a virus. Possibly BCTV (beet curly top virus), which has been a problem in your part of the state. (but, I don't know if this is the time of year for leafhoppers) Have you seen any leafhoppers?

I would contact your county extension office and ask if they could help with a diagnosis:
http://cemerced.ucanr.edu/about/contact/

Best of luck, please keep us posted,
Steve