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Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.

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Old October 28, 2016   #31
StrongPlant
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StrongPlant: All bets are off regarding things like plant vigor. I grew the hybrids in a too hot greenhouse in August, and they are still in it in October when it's barely above freezing and the days are super short and cloudy. I didn't grow mother-varieties as controls, so I can't offer many details about how the hybrids compare to the mothers. However, with that said, the vigor of [Fern X LA1777] seemed very low starting out, so I replanted. They seem to be growing fine now, as do the others. They are comparable in size, and shape to LA1777. By fine, I mean fine considering who the farmer is, and how they are being treated. It's looking like they will make seeds, which is the point of the project.

Flowers per truss on the hybrids is 6 to 7. It's 10 on LA1777.

Fruit set is 50% on the hybrids, and about 10% on LA1777. I have been buzz pollinating the hybrids, and using pollen from them to try to pollinate LA1777 (and some domestic crosses), but I haven't been doing buzz pollination on LA1777. Today, I tried a new pollination technique: Broke anther cones from the hybrids, and slipped them over the exerted stigmas on LA1777. They can drop/receive pollen as they wish.

LA1777 has stipules. The hybrids don't.

The hybrids have 13 to 16 leaflets per leaf. LA1777 has 15 to 23 leaflets per leaf.

Leaflet shape of the hybrids closely resembles LA1777, regardless of whether the mothers were potato-leaved, fern-leaved, or regular-leaved.

I grew three accessions of Solanum habrochaites this year. Two of them were vigorous upright plants. LA1777 was more wispy and vine-like. If it makes any difference, LA1777 were cuttings from a two year old plant that I overwintered in a south facing window. LA 1777 is also different from the other accessions, because it only has a single stem on the truss. On the other two accession, the truss-stem splits before the first flower, and each half of the truss has 10-ish flowers. The leaves are small on LA1777. They are huge on the other accessions.
Thanks a lot! I have different wild species but this gives me some perspective on what to expect,and some day I plan on getting all of them,including S.Habrochaites.From what I read,it seems habrochaites has the most to offer to the modern tomato in terms of various resistances.
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Old October 28, 2016   #32
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To me the bottom line is production and taste. I wounder these wild varieties do offer such an advantage. JMO
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Old October 29, 2016   #33
joseph
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The domestic tomato genome is perhaps the narrowest and most inbred of any crop. That makes it a fragile crop. It's already so fragile, that in vast areas of it's range, domestic tomato can pretty much only be grown with intense applications of crop-protection chemicals. Without the pesticides and fungicides, production of domestic tomatoes is approximately nothing.

As a sustenance farmer, I can't afford fertilizers, or crop protection chemicals. Therefore, a plant has to grow and produce without chemicals if it's going to be of any use to me.

Statistically, hybrid tomatoes average about 50% higher yields than open pollinated tomatoes.

My main interest in the wild tomatoes is importing the self-incompatibility genes into domestic tomatoes. That will make them mandatory out-crossers. Every seed in my populations would then be a new F1 hybrid. The hybrid vigor should help tremendously with productivity. Additionally, with the rapid mixing and recombination of genetics, we will be able to throw tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of genetic combinations into the challenges posed by early blight, late blight, septoria, insects, blossom end rot, bacterial speck, etc. Some of the wild tomato species have shown good tolerance towards some of those problems. Getting more of these resistance genes into domestic tomatoes may lower the costs and labor associated with growing tomatoes, and likely lead to increased productivity. We also may be able to incorporate genes for cold/frost tolerance thus effectively increasing the length of the growing season in cooler climates, or shifting harvest dates earlier in warmer climates.

In my opinion, domestic tomatoes are a yucky crop. I taste hundreds of varieties of tomatoes per year. There are very few of them that I find palatable. The wild tomatoes at least taste sweet and fruity when they are very very ripe and soft. So I ain't worried much about the taste side of things. It would be very hard to create a fruit that tastes as bad as domestic tomatoes.

Yes, I know, I just derailed this thread. Everyone can pile on now and tell me about how fabulous ______ variety of tomato tastes.
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Old October 29, 2016   #34
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The domestic tomato genome is perhaps the narrowest and most inbred of any crop. That makes it a fragile crop. It's already so fragile, that in vast areas of it's range, domestic tomato can pretty much only be grown with intense applications of crop-protection chemicals. Without the pesticides and fungicides, production of domestic tomatoes is approximately nothing.
This.It actually doesn't make sence because there are plenty of wild species with very distinct and rich genomes that can contribute a lot to modern,inbred tomato.Many people are now realizing that and are working on improving it,which I'm glad to hear! I myself focus more on F1's that have parents genetically as divergent as possible,since then F1's would contain the most different genes/plant possible.I saw many hybrid tomatoes that have parents differing in just a few genes,and are crossed together simply because multiple disease resistances are possible only in F1 state.I on the other hand want parent lines to drastically differ in genomes.Joseph's project is unique and interesting,though I am not sure if it would work on a large scale production,but if some new disease/stress appears he's the one that will have the plants resistant to it since there would be so much diversity.
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Old October 29, 2016   #35
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Tomatillos are a self-incompatible crop that are grown commercially. They are closely related to tomatoes.
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Old November 7, 2016   #36
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Two of the S. habrochaites plants that survived the spring frost/cold tolerance test are growing wonderfully this fall, even though the rest of the tomatoes are dead, or very close.

S. habrochaites: tolerant of fall frosts.
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Old January 11, 2017   #37
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Joseph -

Which habrochaites variety showed the frost resistance? I'm planning to order some habrochaites lines from TGRC and I'd like to include it. All of the commercial habrochaites rootstock varieties grow well in cool weather, but I haven't seen any that will survive a frost.

Thanks,

Fred
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Old January 11, 2017   #38
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30% of S. habrochaites LYC 2885 survived the spring frosts, snows, and cold. It did OK with the fall frosts.

I didn't subject LA1777 to spring frosts, and it wasn't the most resistant to fall frosts, though more tolerant than domestic tomatoes.

The other variety of S. habrochaites that I grew came without an accession number. It was most tolerant of spring and fall frosts.
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Old January 12, 2017   #39
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30% of S. habrochaites LYC 2885 survived the spring frosts, snows, and cold. It did OK with the fall frosts.

I didn't subject LA1777 to spring frosts, and it wasn't the most resistant to fall frosts, though more tolerant than domestic tomatoes.

The other variety of S. habrochaites that I grew came without an accession number. It was most tolerant of spring and fall frosts.
LYC 2885 is from Genesys in France, so I won't be able to include it in my TGRC order. I'll try LA1772, which was collected at 8,450 feet altitude and should at least have good cold resistance.

Thanks,

Fred
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Old January 14, 2017   #40
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Actually, LA1777 was collected from 10,552 feet, so it should be even more cold-resistant,
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Old January 15, 2017   #41
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Try LA2175 while you are at it.

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/Acc...contains=false
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Old January 16, 2017   #42
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Top of my list, based on your post that it is completely resistant to Septoria.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...A2175+septoria
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Old January 20, 2017   #43
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Originally Posted by joseph View Post
In my opinion, domestic tomatoes are a yucky crop. I taste hundreds of varieties of tomatoes per year. There are very few of them that I find palatable. The wild tomatoes at least taste sweet and fruity when they are very very ripe and soft. So I ain't worried much about the taste side of things. It would be very hard to create a fruit that tastes as bad as domestic tomatoes.

Yes, I know, I just derailed this thread. Everyone can pile on now and tell me about how fabulous ______ variety of tomato tastes.
Joseph, I'm with you. I've called myself "tomato taste-impaired" as I often can't taste the goodness others claim to find in tomatoes. But maybe folks like us just have "extremely discriminating tomato palates".
Nan
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Old January 20, 2017   #44
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This is interesting. Update us on the success. I grow wild Tomatoes too.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #45
joseph
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Sorry that I has technical issues and have been away from the group for a while... Now that the fall harvests are completed, I hope to spend more time posting updates to some of my tomato breeding threads. I'm still cleaning seeds and doing germination testing, so here's a tease.

This year I grew a nice patch of Solanum habrochaites. I grew about 4 accessions all jumbled up with each other. I'm selecting for a mass-cross grex that produces lots of fruit in my growing conditions. The bumblebees loved them, and were constantly fussing with the flowers. Keen101 questioned whether the anther cones of my tomatoes are getting marked by visiting bees. They sure are. Here's an example of some Solanum habrochaites flowers with bruising of the anther cones from pollinator visits. I was able to capture two species on the flowers in a few minutes. There was a third species that frequents them that is too small, skittish, and fast to get a good photo with the little effort I put into photography.

Solanum habrochaites, bruised anther cone.


Bumblebee on Solanum habrochaites.


Solanum habrochaites flower with small bee.
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